Controversial Fansub Documentary

[Matt Soulblade]

You know, with all this, I think Im planning on making a Documentary too

The History and Rise of the Trolls: Because disliking things is not enough.

Also:
It was better when I did it: A story of how you got old and times changed.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Matt Soulblade

It was better when I did it: A story of how you got old and times changed.

Now this is truth. The one thing we can say for certain is that, 15/20 years from now, there will be a group of people who will loudly proclaim that we've never had it better than the way things are today, "questionable" typesetting, translation and all. Maybe someone will even make a video documentary about it!

[SinsI]

Originally Posted by Vegard Aune

Spoiler for Spoiler - Shuffle:

-We're supposed to be lovers, stop calling me Asa! (Asa-senpai)
-Okay, Asa... (Asa-san)
-Huh? Well, that's a little better I guess.

Spoiler for Clannad - not that spoilerish, but I tagged it anyway:

-Okazaki, try calling Nagisa "Nagisa" instead. ("Nagisa-chan)
-Nagi... You know, why don't I just say Nagisa instead?

Yes, clearly, honorifics are completely useless in every possible context ever. In other words, NOT REALLY.

I see absolutely nothing in your examples that requires the constant use of honorifics.
You just explain it in a one-time manner ("Stop addressing me 'sempai'!).
It's very similar to the use of watashi/ore in a gender-bender show - you mention it only then somebody explicitly points out the differences in its use. Or not, if you feel like substituting some other appropriate english form of speech.

I'm not sure if you were joking but I'm pretty sure some anime fans are actually deaf, as I don't remember anime being only for those who can hear.
And in the wonderful examples that Vegard Aune provides, could you please provide a better substitute since honorifics are so useless...

If you want to make captions for the deaf, don't forget to put in all the non-speech information such as the identity of speakers, their manner of speaking along with music and sound effects.

[Oxtail]

Do any large fansub groups actually remove honorifics? I, for one, would never download fansubs from a group that removed honorifics. It would feel like they're dumbing down the show for Western tastes.

[Matt Soulblade]

Same here. I believe honorifics have a large importance on the way someone speaks, in fact, a Japanese adressing someone without honorifcs would be kinda rash (expept the case they know eachothers for ages).

And how can you explain the difference between -chan and -tan?. Of course, you make a TL Note box, oh wait.

I really think the new generation of fans and fansubbers see things very differently from the way the "old guard" (just to not say "oldfag", a term that is being used a lot for this kind of things) used to, and them just can't understand the mind of the people who is now majority of the group.

With that said, I:
Prefer honorifics
Like TL Notes (sure, Keikaku means plan, but you know people sometimes screw up)
Like see Japanese things left Japanese (Ex.: Ramen =/= noodle soup)
Like fancy fonts, AND Karaoke. This is important, a group that does not make karaoke for ALL the songs ranks lower than the ones that do.
And I even like speedsubs, as long as a better version is made after.

Maybe its because I'm young. And I'm not butthurt'd. Yet.

[Utils]

After four years of hardcore lurking and seeing numerous people FAIL TREMENDOUSLY on the first few replies about the sign thing I had to log-in and comment.


Re: "He thinks signs should not be translated"

Spoiler for After posting that I see he's already explained this better than I could and so there's no need to read my impulsive rant.:

A) You're either intentionally building a straw man argument or you REALLY misunderstood what he said.

B) Remember when he says the translation should be as unobtrusive as possible? Super-imposing text over the sign or the grave, etc. is JARRING. And so is all the other junk that fansubbers do but I'm sure in a thread 13 pages deep you've already gone into that.

No, his point was that to effectively translate signs and not be jarring is to do what's been done on DVD and tap for centuries: captions. Usually if there's a sign AND dialog (but not always) the sign text would be at the top of the screen in quotes. If not dialog, at the bottom in quotes.

Frankly, If you're going to super-impose something, why not just do it over the Japanese. Having them Both is jarring and obvious but if you digitally edit I don't see the problem.

If the chalk board scenes in so Long Mr. Despair were English Only as opposed to English next to Japanese the jokes would work better. Not one would accuse you of butchering the sacred moonspeak.

Oh wait, if you did it that way your releases would be late and no one would download, is that the fear?


ADDENDUM: I STILL don't understand the honorifics and I've been watching anime for an embarrassingly long time. Honorifics hurt my face to tell you the truth. I was watching Soul Eater by GX_ST-Oni and I had to turn it off. I'm guessing that's the same group that fansturbated (as opposed to fansubbed) that One Piece show with all the stupidly animated attack moves and such because they do it on this show as well.

[SinsI]

Originally Posted by Oxtail

Do any large fansub groups actually remove honorifics? I, for one, would never download fansubs from a group that removed honorifics. It would feel like they're dumbing down the show for Western tastes.

"Japanese is Holy". :lol:
They're dumbing it down due to fan tastes by leaving them in.
It is not a dub, it is not a scanlation - honorifics are still there in the soundtrack.
Putting an additional copy into the onscreen text is evil if only because it clatters up the screen space and takes additional time to read, distracting you more from actually watching the show.

Originally Posted by Matt Soulblade

With that said, I:
Prefer honorifics
Like TL Notes (sure, Keikaku means plan, but you know people sometimes screw up)

TL Notes are good, as for the first one - just try to actually watch something without them - you won't even notice their absence! (BTW, that was quite a revelation for me too then I was once forced to watch Last Exile with such a sub).

[dj_tjerk]

Originally Posted by Utils

If the chalk board scenes in so Long Mr. Despair were English Only as opposed to English next to Japanese the jokes would work better. Not one would accuse you of butchering the sacred moonspeak.

Oh wait, if you did it that way your releases would be late and no one would download, is that the fear?

There is only one group that finished SZS with english subs

Originally Posted by Utils

I STILL don't understand the honorifics and I've been watching anime for an embarrassingly long time. Honorifics hurt my face to tell you the truth. I was watching Soul Eater by GX_ST-Oni and I had to turn it off. I'm guessing that's the same group that fansturbated (as opposed to fansubbed) that One Piece show with all the stupidly animated attack moves and such because they do it on this show as well.

Don't make assumptions, it makes you look stupid. FYI, GX_ST-Oni didnt even sub one episode of One Piece. It's a pity you don't know the meaning of honorifcs. Some people here say they want them gone cause you can hear them, but that of course won't work for you either because you don't understand them? Leaving something like chichi-ue in the subs is not what I want either, but when it's translated as "Father" you better know there's a difference with "otou-san". Neway.. read this (don't study it.. just read it fast.. you should've heard enough examples througout those 4 years )

[Zhaxra]

I agree with the point about the sign issues being to obtrusive at times. Using the example of the "Infirmary' sign used in most school episodes, if the show focuses a lot of attention on the sign itself and the next scene is actually in the Infirmary, does a translation for that sign need to be translated? Or, has the viewing audience lost the ability to infer from the scene itself that it takes place in the Infirmary making the translation necessary?

As for the video itself, I found it to be a lot of fun. Some of the points made may or may not ring true depending on which side of the fansub fence we are (fansubbers | viewers). However, like a fansub, a lot of work went into making it and that I can respect.

Geez... all this talk about the 'old days'. I remember having to buy the VHS or LaserDiscs of BubbleGum Crisis and give my friend some pizza and a six-pack so he could roughly explain to me the gist of what was going on. We also replaced all the dialogue with our own sometimes for fun. It's amazing how well Star Wars quotes worked.

[Utils]

RE: dj_tjerk

> Don't make assumptions, it makes you look stupid.
Not really. With an assumption you admit to taking a risk. It's not the same as making an assertion or proclamation. I was obviously guessing and said as much.

> FYI, GX_ST-Oni didnt even sub one episode of One Piece.
I wouldn't know. Perhaps the guy that made the fonts or whatever for that One Piece show went on to work for that other group I mentioned. Is it a rule that you can only work with one group? Or even worse, the guys at that group were inspired *shudder* by the One Piece thing.

> It's a pity you don't know the meaning of honorifcs.
Save your pity. I'm in it for the art and story (HOW IRONIC) not the language lesson. When I was in Taiwan and watching TV over there I found it a LOT easier to pick up Mandarin. Perhaps if fansturbators started translating the material instead of phonetically transcribing the dialog I would learn easier.

I mean, I still don't know how to say brother and sister because some fansturbators leave those in the original language. It's at the point where I just assume those are their names and they aren't siblings. That's not translating. And if I'm not CONSISTENTLY immersed in a translation then I'm not going to learn. In Taiwan you get English and Chinese subtitles in almost every show. Same typesetting everywhere. I was able to enjoy the programs and forget I was even reading anything. It's inconsistent.

You learned because you went and researched it. Yes, I've picked up a few words from fansubs but that's only because these words are usually TRANSLATED into English. Had they been left intact like honorifics and other words, I still wouldn't know them.

> Some people here say they want them gone cause you can hear them, but that of course won't work for you either because you don't understand them?
What's so wrong about calling people Mr., Master, Sir, Teacher, Lady, Little, Young, Son, Junior, Pops, Old, Perverted, boss, etc.?

> Leaving something like chichi-ue in the subs is not what I want either, but when it's translated as "Father" you better know there's a difference with "otou-san".
WHAT?

> Neway.. read this (don't study it.. just read it fast.. you should've heard enough examples througout those 4 years )
It's been more than four years. And I know what you're basing that number on.

Okay, now where's the page with all the other stuff they won't translate like family members?


If they included notes as a text file I wouldn't mind going throught it after the show. It's totally possible with 'torrent.


EDIT: I'm on a fansub comparison site and it looks like the "Just as planned" stuff still goes on. Look for the AniYoshi one and scroll down seven frames. Awful.

[cors8]

Originally Posted by Utils

RE: dj_tjerk

> Don't make assumptions, it makes you look stupid.
Not really. With an assumption you admit to taking a risk. It's not the same as making an assertion or proclamation. I was obviously guessing and said as much.

> FYI, GX_ST-Oni didnt even sub one episode of One Piece.
I wouldn't know. Perhaps the guy that made the fonts or whatever for that One Piece show went on to work for that other group I mentioned. Is it a rule that you can only work with one group? Or even worse, the guys at that group were inspired *shudder* by the One Piece thing.

> It's a pity you don't know the meaning of honorifcs.
Save your pity. I'm in it for the art and story (HOW IRONIC) not the language lesson. When I was in Taiwan and watching TV over there I found it a LOT easier to pick up Mandarin. Perhaps if fansturbators started translating the material instead of phonetically transcribing the dialog I would learn easier.

I mean, I still don't know how to say brother and sister because some fansturbators leave those in the original language. It's at the point where I just assume those are their names and they aren't siblings. That's not translating. And if I'm not CONSISTENTLY immersed in a translation then I'm not going to learn. In Taiwan you get English and Chinese subtitles in almost every show. Same typesetting everywhere. I was able to enjoy the programs and forget I was even reading anything. It's inconsistent.

You learned because you went and researched it. Yes, I've picked up a few words from fansubs but that's only because these words are usually TRANSLATED into English. Had they been left intact like honorifics and other words, I still wouldn't know them.

> Some people here say they want them gone cause you can hear them, but that of course won't work for you either because you don't understand them?
What's so wrong about calling people Mr., Master, Sir, Teacher, Lady, Little, Young, Son, Junior, Pops, Old, Perverted, boss, etc.?

> Leaving something like chichi-ue in the subs is not what I want either, but when it's translated as "Father" you better know there's a difference with "otou-san".
WHAT?

> Neway.. read this (don't study it.. just read it fast.. you should've heard enough examples througout those 4 years )
It's been more than four years. And I know what you're basing that number on.

Okay, now where's the page with all the other stuff they won't translate like family members?


If they included notes as a text file I wouldn't mind going throught it after the show. It's totally possible with 'torrent.


EDIT: I'm on a fansub comparison site and it looks like the "Just as planned" stuff still goes on. Look for the AniYoshi one and scroll down seven frames. Awful.

Here's a simple solution: Don't download from groups you don't like!

If there's only one group subbing the series, then do it yourself or hope for it to be licensed.

I'm not going to complain about a free service so long as the translations are accurate. Could there be improvement? Always. It's the groups decision on whether or not they do any of that and if it's worth it to them.

[creamyhorror]

Originally Posted by Utils

> It's a pity you don't know the meaning of honorifcs.
Save your pity. I'm in it for the art and story (HOW IRONIC) not the language lesson. When I was in Taiwan and watching TV over there I found it a LOT easier to pick up Mandarin. Perhaps if fansturbators started translating the material instead of phonetically transcribing the dialog I would learn easier.

I mean, I still don't know how to say brother and sister because some fansturbators leave those in the original language. It's at the point where I just assume those are their names and they aren't siblings. That's not translating. And if I'm not CONSISTENTLY immersed in a translation then I'm not going to learn. In Taiwan you get English and Chinese subtitles in almost every show. Same typesetting everywhere. I was able to enjoy the programs and forget I was even reading anything. It's inconsistent.

You learned because you went and researched it. Yes, I've picked up a few words from fansubs but that's only because these words are usually TRANSLATED into English. Had they been left intact like honorifics and other words, I still wouldn't know them.

I don't even know how the heck you can compare single-language subtitling with dual-language subtitling. Or how you can fail to realize that "nii-chan" means brother, from the context and repeated exposure.

EDIT: I'm on a fansub comparison site and it looks like the "Just as planned" stuff still goes on. Look for the AniYoshi one and scroll down seven frames. Awful.

They were panned for that release (for non-translated terms and choice of phrasing), so it's not like most people agree with that. They apparently switched to translating terms as per normal in subsequent episodes, saying the earlier release was a screwup of some sort. And they're one out of the 8 groups listed, so clearly everyone has some choice in who to follow.

That aside - you care far more about familial terms and honorifics than I ever would. I didn't know them, I figured it out after a bit more exposure, and it didn't bother me either way from then on. Maybe you were used to an era where honorifics were never used in fansubs, but the current/upcoming generation's definitely accustomed to them, and you can't ignore that fact.

[Heibi]

Originally Posted by creamyhorror

I don't even know how the heck you can compare single-language subtitling with dual-language subtitling. Or how you can fail to realize that "nii-chan" means brother, from the context and repeated exposure.

"nii-chan" can also just be referring to a kid/man who is older than the character saying it. A little kid will use nii-chan towards guys older than them. Just because you hear it doesn't necessarily mean "brother". It could also mean Mister.

Now if the connection is siblings then yes it literally will mean brother in that case.

You hear it all the time in anime. You even hear the older guy correcting a little kid who calls him "ojii-san" telling the kid he's not that old and to call him "nii-chan".

Translation is a fine art in those cases. And they are usually easy to translate. In fact, if a person watching anime hears the same word and sees two differing translations, he/she may actually inquire and learn the reason for the different translation.

[Teppei]

After watching this thread with some annoyance, I have something I want to mouth off about also.

Enough already with people stating their opinions and preferences as some kind of objective rule that must be followed. Clearly (in my opinion of course) all of the stuff being argued about is a matter of taste. If you have an opinion, feel free to state it, but with some kind of reasonable explanation, and do remember that reason says you should understand that everyone is not obligated (or sometimes even likely) to agree with you, and so having some courtesy in your wording for those people can often separate an interesting post from an annoying one.

Now, here's my opinion. Fansubbers: you are doing just fine, however you like to fansub anime is perfectly OK, as long as you are enjoying yourselves. Once you start thinking there is some fixed way that's acceptable and other approaches are substandard, I think you lose the point of the hobby in the first place.

I personally don't mind seeing Japanese words (within limits) when I watch fansubs. Others don't like it. I don't mind flashy karaoke, but I don't really feel it's necessary either. Others don't like it, or demand it. I don't mind stuff over the OP/ED (like credits). I feel the purpose of the OP/ED is to display credits (that's why anime has them). Others don't like stuff over the OP/ED artwork.

No matter what preference you might have, some people will like it and some won't. But that doesn't matter. What's important is that the people creating the fansub like it.

[dj_tjerk]

Originally Posted by Utils

RE: dj_tjerk

> Don't make assumptions, it makes you look stupid.
Not really. With an assumption you admit to taking a risk. It's not the same as making an assertion or proclamation. I was obviously guessing and said as much.

There is no need for assumptions (omg.. it's in the word) if you just do a little research..

Originally Posted by Utils

I wouldn't know. Perhaps the guy that made the fonts or whatever for that One Piece show went on to work for that other group I mentioned. Is it a rule that you can only work with one group? Or even worse, the guys at that group were inspired *shudder* by the One Piece thing.

You were using the word 'they' and 'group'. Basically accusing/crediting the people (people.. plural) in GX_ST-Oni for doing awesome (or sucky) work on another show. You didn't say "the guy that styles the effect translations." And I never mentioned something about being able to join only one group?

Originally Posted by Utils

Save your pity. I'm in it for the art and story (HOW IRONIC) not the language lesson. [... some holiday talk ...]. I mean, I still don't know how to say brother and sister because some fansturbators leave those in the original language. It's at the point where I just assume those are their names and they aren't siblings.

Good that you're in it for the story (there are not that many good stories out there.. I like good stories ) But I picked up the meaning of onii-chan/onee-san/chichi-ue/otou-san from watching fansubs. I never once considered they were name of some sort. If you hear a daughter saying otou-san to her father (you should know that from the story) many times in different shows, you should be able to figure it out no? It's how people learn languages (even their native one). Also .. how do you know fansubbers leave the words for brother and sister in the original language if you don't even know what the words for brother and sister should be?

Originally Posted by Utils

You learned because you went and researched it. Yes, I've picked up a few words from fansubs but that's only because these words are usually TRANSLATED into English. Had they been left intact like honorifics and other words, I still wouldn't know them.

I didn't research it. I do think that words like onii-san could be easily translated. But knowing that -san is just a suffix (again.. from hearing it a lot), I can also figure out what onii-chan is supposed to be.

Originally Posted by Utils

What's so wrong about calling people Mr., Master, Sir, Teacher, Lady, Little, Young, Son, Junior, Pops, Old, Perverted, boss, etc.?

Nothing wrong with it. In most cases it probably works out just fine (and i personally think it's prettier without the japanese suffixes). But there are many cases in which it's just impossible to convey the same feeling (words in a language have a certain feeling to it), without changing the sentence substantially or leaving out what to some may not seem that important. I guess I learned those cases by hearing them a lot and seeing similarities.

Originally Posted by Utils

> Leaving something like chichi-ue in the subs is not what I want either, but when it's translated as "Father" you better know there's a difference with "otou-san".
WHAT?

Quoting wikipedia:

Ue (上?) literally means "above" and, appropriately, denotes a high level of respect. While its use is no longer very common, it is still seen in constructions like chichi-ue (父上?) and haha-ue (母上?), reverent terms for one's own, or someone else's, father and mother, respectively. Receipts that do not require specification of the payer's name are often filled-in with ue-sama.

I guess you can say it is a VERY polite way of saying "Father" or "Mother". I personally think "Father" and "Mother" are already quite polite and "Mom" and "Dad" have a much more natural/informal feeling to it. But I wonder what that natural/infomal way is in Japan. Otou-san or "tou-san" maybe.. donno.

Originally Posted by Utils

Okay, now where's the page with all the other stuff they won't translate like family members?

Like what? What their names literally mean?

Originally Posted by Utils

EDIT: I'm on a fansub comparison site and it looks like the "Just as planned" stuff still goes on. Look for the AniYoshi one and scroll down seven frames. Awful.

Was mentioned earlier yes. I wonder why they chose not to translate "majo" but give it a note.

Anyway.. some groups like to leave some more japanese in the subs.. if you don't like it (say Soul Eater with GX_ST-Oni and AniYoshi), try Saizen .. maybe you'll like their subs. Nice thing is.. it's free~ I learned enough japanese from watching QUALITY^TM subs to understand/enjoy subs of lesser quality (reading over mistakes and not translating 'obvious' japanese words).

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by Teppei

Enough already with people stating their opinions and preferences as some kind of objective rule that must be followed.

It's called trolling. You can pretty much grasp how much trolling occurs in a post by their tone. Those self-righteous pricks who think their opinions are the indisputable truths are pretty much trolls to the core.

Sometimes they are utterly obvious, sometimes they mask them by pretty words and pseudo-arguments. But, once stripped down to the core, their "opinions" tend to be like "lol I haet newfags doing things their way," or "lol karaoke sucks/awesome and im always right."

Thanks for the sensible post by the way. Good rep for you.

I have to disagree with one point though: you said opinions of non-fansubbers don't matter in the end. I don't think that's really true; it's true that most fansubbers are doing it for their own enjoyment, but I think doing things without listening to what their consumers (note: no commercial connotation here) want is a bit rude. For every loud complainer there's a constructive criticism out there that might be useful for fansubbers to perfect their craft. Okay, maybe not for every loud complainer, but even ten to one it still counts.

I also find it amusing that the type of "leeches" fansubbers tend to interact with the most are the ungrateful, complaining ones, and that forms the majority of their opinions toward the fans (IMO -- I have no evidence of course). I suspect the truth behind the numbers to be drastically different. Most people are probably somewhat grateful for fansubbers translating the moonspeak cartoons and making them accessible to English-language audiences, rather than feeling entitled to the "service" or whatever. Unfortunately, they are probably not grateful enough to go to IRC channels and praise the fansubbers to the heavens. I know I don't; it seems like a waste of time when I could be doing other things, like playing games, watching anime, discussing the shows themselves, participate in flamewars, or go out and experience that enigmatic phenomenon called life.

On the "documentary," simple statement: hello selective evidence. If you aren't being scientific, don't try to claim to be factual, Mr. Otaking (and seriously, this is a rather arrogant nickname don't you think? ).

[Jaka]

Originally Posted by Heibi

"nii-chan" can also just be referring to a kid/man who is older than the character saying it. A little kid will use nii-chan towards guys older than them. Just because you hear it doesn't necessarily mean "brother". It could also mean Mister.

Now if the connection is siblings then yes it literally will mean brother in that case.

You hear it all the time in anime. You even hear the older guy correcting a little kid who calls him "ojii-san" telling the kid he's not that old and to call him "nii-chan".

Translation is a fine art in those cases. And they are usually easy to translate. In fact, if a person watching anime hears the same word and sees two differing translations, he/she may actually inquire and learn the reason for the different translation.

since when was anime about learning japanese?

seriously, go take some classes if you want to learn japanese.

[Heibi]

Originally Posted by Jaka

since when was anime about learning japanese?

seriously, go take some classes if you want to learn japanese.

Never said it was. Did my response say that? NO. That's not the reason why people enjoy Anime. Anime helps encourage it sometimes. It did for me. But to each his own.

[Jaka]

Originally Posted by Heibi

Never said it was. Did my response say that? NO. That's not the reason why people enjoy Anime. Anime helps encourage it sometimes. It did for me. But to each his own.

well, you made it sound like it, so excuse me for being wrong.

>>In fact, if a person watching anime hears the same word and sees two differing translations, he/she may actually inquire and learn the reason for the different translation.

[Heibi]

Originally Posted by Jaka

well, you made it sound like it, so excuse me for being wrong.

>>In fact, if a person watching anime hears the same word and sees two differing translations, he/she may actually inquire and learn the reason for the different translation.

Inquiring and taking classes are two different things. But that ventures off this thread.