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Old 2014-04-24, 09:58   Link #2201
Miraluka
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Or you just could alter they laws that affects her powers making her useless against you without affecting the enviroment, like Kakine did to Mugino's Meltdowner. Or just go use legends based magic where they're inmune to lighting and derivated, shintoism has a lot of this like cutting lighting and thunder with a steel sword.


About what LevelSeven said, I can't recall examples so far but Opila rune card has an area effect that affects people awareness/senses including espers, it has worked several times in the series, and I think this one of the reasons why Mikoto was never able to find Touma after he went to the place where the Amakusa were fighting against Acqua of the Back.
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Old 2014-04-24, 10:06   Link #2202
desrtsku
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^ Could you repeat that? I felt like I've read something that doesn't make any sense. (especially the KakineXMugino part)
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Old 2014-04-24, 10:11   Link #2203
Miraluka
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Meh, Mugino has fought Kakine at least two times on vol.15, she should have (ab)used Meltdowner on him but afterwards we saw Kakine didn't even lose a single hair, so he should have done the same he did to Accelerator, he just messed up with the energies working behind the rules of her powers and he only had to just punch her to defeat her.
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Old 2014-04-24, 10:16   Link #2204
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so he should have done the same he did to Accelerator
What exactly has he done to Accelerator other than buying time, using network gimmicks to survive his attacks and attempting to mindrape him?
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he just messed up with the energies working behind the rules of her powers
Like I already said : what?
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Old 2014-04-24, 10:24   Link #2205
Miraluka
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What exactly has he done to Accelerator other than buying time, using network gimmicks to survive his attacks and attempting to mindrape him?
From Vol.15. Why you suddenly jump to NT?

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Like I already said : what?
Refresh your mind by re-reading that novel.
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Old 2014-04-24, 10:26   Link #2206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Or you just could alter they laws that affects her powers making her useless against you without affecting the enviroment, like Kakine did to Mugino's Meltdowner. Or just go use legends based magic where they're inmune to lighting and derivated, shintoism has a lot of this like cutting lighting and thunder with a steel sword.

About what LevelSeven said, I can't recall examples so far but Opila rune card has an area effect that affects people awareness/senses including espers, it has worked several times in the series, and I think this one of the reasons why Mikoto was never able to find Touma after he went to the place where the Amakusa were fighting against Acqua of the Back.
These are all examples of fighting Espers/Esper powers. If I understand correctly, LevelSeven wanted to know if it was possible to stop them from working in the first place.
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Old 2014-04-24, 10:31   Link #2207
desrtsku
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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
From Vol.15. Why you suddenly jump to NT?
Because, I'm deliberately trying to remind you in a rather indirect way that metldowner perfectly worked on him in NT + it was already stated that he just reflects back her beams in Vol 22 + what he did to Accel in Vol 15 has nothing to do with "messed up with the energies working behind the rules of her powers".


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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Refresh your mind by re-reading that novel.
Son of God once said that you should ... I actually don't know exactly what it was, but it was something about taking one's advice for themselves first.
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Old 2014-04-24, 10:34   Link #2208
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Kakine from Vol.15 isn't the same from NT. The former cared about his body, the latter can just sapm more bodies and keep going on.

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Because, I'm deliberately trying to remind you in a rather indirect way that metldowner perfectly works on him in NT + it was already stated that he just reflects back her beams in Vol 22 + what he did to Accel in Vol 15 has nothing to do with "messed up with the energies working behind the rules of her powers".
So-so.
Then explain why those attacks didn't work on vol.22 anyway.

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Son of God once said that you should ... I don't exactly know what it was but it's something about taking one's advice for themselves first.
You just like to nitpick every single time, don't you?

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Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip View Post
These are all examples of fighting Espers/Esper powers. If I understand correctly, LevelSeven wanted to know if it was possible to stop them from working in the first place.

I see, then there is no way to know with the limited fights between esper and magicians we have so far.
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Old 2014-04-24, 10:43   Link #2209
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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Kakine from Vol.15 isn't the same from NT. The former cared about his body, the latter can just sapm more bodies and keep going on.
It also blasted away the clones that were supposed to kill Mugino and Accel. He may not care about his body anymore but I'm sure his weapons kind of matters to him in that situation.
Moreover, it doesn't make sense why he would downgrade his powers in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
So-so.
Then explain why those attacks didn't work on vol.22 anyway.
There's nothing to explain, it was just some "No, the white wings coming from the mask most likely could deflect those weakened Meltdowner attacks." kind of statement. In other words : brute force.
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You like just to nitpick every single time, don't you?
What are you talking about?
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Old 2014-04-24, 10:44   Link #2210
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I said from Vol.15. Why you suddenly jump to NT?
even in vol. 15, kakine wasnt able to change the laws of accels powers...

hence, the only reaosn why kakine even loosed agaisnt a non-awakened person or a being from horus is because:
1. he is still a cocky bastard
2. he didnt even realize 10% of the power he should have with dark matter

Quote:
These are all examples of fighting Espers/Esper powers. If I understand correctly, LevelSeven wanted to know if it was possible to stop them from working in the first place.

but magic has nothing to do with physics so this stuff doesnt apply to that theoretical room...

imagine:
1. someone creates/uses (like miraluka posted) something similar with a opila rune and creates a area where the physical laws doesnt exist...

2. the magician uses a exorcist spell and "expel" the "evil" demons

3. this "demons" are the underlying powers of the espers

4. accel or mikoto are inside such a place and......thier powers simply stop working...they can move, speak, breath but their powers (the "evil" demons) are "expelled"

would this work?
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Old 2014-04-24, 10:51   Link #2211
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While looking up information on comparative mythology, I came across stuff regarding the hypothesised PIER and I was wondering how it would be classified with regards to the "cracks" - what do people reckon?

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Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
Isnt this the way magicians are fighting?
kanzaki used a symbol which allowed her to stay over the waters of ymirs ocean....
I dont know if their is a all powerful spell for that but the way which the magicians are fighting is exactly like that.... find the weakness and the spell is useless....
That's not quite what I had in mind - it was something slightly different.

I'll revise my description to try to get the question across better.

Last edited by Inept Forum User; 2014-04-24 at 11:57. Reason: Trying to get things across properly (I don't like it when this kind of thing happens)
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Old 2014-04-24, 10:52   Link #2212
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by derstku
It also blasted away the clones that were supposed to kill Mugino and Accel. He may not care about his body anymore but I'm sure his weapons kind of matters to him in that situation.
Implying he can't just remake them?

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Moreover, it doesn't make sense why he would downgrade his powers in the first place
I wonder the same but Kamachi works like this.

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There's nothing to explain, it was just some "No, the white wings coming from the mask most likely could deflect those weakened Meltdowner attacks." kind of statement. In other words : brute force.
Wow, I didn't know brute force could deflect beams that desintegrated things away like limbs .

Quote:
What are you talking about.
That you're not even trying but seems like you post for the sake of posting...


Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven
even in vol. 15, kakine wasnt able to change the laws of accels powers...

hence, the only reaosn why kakine even loosed agaisnt a non-awakened person or a being from horus is because:
1. he is still a cocky bastard
2. he didnt even realize 10% of the power he should have with dark matter
He did affect the energies that were seen as harmless by Accel's filter. What was harmless became harmful. He messed up with laws.

1. He is a cocky bastard full of himself. If he tried to attack Accelerator before going "Mwahaha, I'm so awesome" probably Kakine wouldn't have been put on a fridge.
2. Maybe he realized it but he chose to laugh and claimn victory without even ending with the fight before .
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Old 2014-04-24, 11:07   Link #2213
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He did affect the energies that were seen as harmless by Accel's filter. What was harmless became harmful. He messed up with laws.
from how i understood the fight:
kakine attacked with wind => accel reflected it
kakine analyzed the refleected parts => finds out that not the entire wind was reflected, only parts of him, the parts which are deemed harmful by accel
kakine takes the parts which arent reflected and changes the laws of this energys, makes them harmful.....
he didnt interfere into accels powers per se but he "deceived" its analyses system...

Quote:
1. He is a cocky bastard full of himself. If he tried to attack Accelerator before going "Mwahaha, I'm so awesome" probably Kakine wouldn't have been put on a fridge.
that is probably true....
*sigh* he is so powerful that the others wouldnt even stand a chance agaisnt him, if he fights 'seriously'

Quote:
2. Maybe he realized it but he chose to laugh and claimn victory without even ending with the fight before .
i would think that too, he already knows that he will be able to create whole PR's soon....
and giving the pattern of:
NT4: byouri using his power and recreating her legs
NT5-6: kakine shows a extended version
NT8: gremlin creates a holistic esper
NT??: kakine will probably show the power to create PR's....

so lets wait until he shows up stronger and will be defeated in a ridiculous way....
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Old 2014-04-24, 11:10   Link #2214
desrtsku
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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Implying he can't just remake them?
They why is he so pissed off?

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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
I wonder the same but Kamachi works like this.
Acqua and Fiamma didn't downgrade their powers for fun though. In fact, NT Kakine and Bettle-kun are supposedly a freaking upgrades of Vol 15 kakine.

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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Wow, I didn't know brute force could deflect beams that desintegrated things away like limbs .
You're seriously using that sort of logic against dark matter which reflects light into bullstool particles? And are wings imbued with energy that can level buildings with a single strike the same as a normal "limb"?
Moreover, that "No, the white wings coming from the mask most likely could deflect those weakened Meltdowner attacks." was actually a quote for the novels. It's words of God, so don't ask me.

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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
That you're not even trying but seems like you post for the sake of posting...
But I'm dead serious though.

EDIT : And btw, Kakine just bypassed reflection using filter tricks. He's just attacking with unknown particles that Accel's filters don't recognize as harmful (yet), because they shouldn't be according to normal physics.
It's like saying 1+1 = 10 is wrong, while it's actually right in binary base. It's not that he messed up with the laws, it's just Accelerator who used the wrong laws to analyse it and determine whether it was really harmful for him or not.
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Old 2014-04-24, 11:10   Link #2215
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by LevelSeven
he didnt interfere into accels powers per se but he "deceived" its analyses system...
Yeah, and? That's why I said "he affects the energy behind the enemy power" rather than "affects the enemy power", those are not the same thing.

Quote:
so lets wait until he shows up stronger and will be defeated in a ridiculous way....
Kakine has become the buttmonkey/Worf even with that much power...

Last edited by Miraluka; 2014-04-24 at 11:25.
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Old 2014-04-24, 11:19   Link #2216
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Yeah, and? That's why I said "he affects the energy behind the enemy power" rather than "affects the enemy power", those are not the same thing.
aaahhh i misunderstood that :P

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Kakine has become the buttmonkey/Worf even with that much power...
maybe he turned into that because he is so powerful
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Old 2014-04-24, 11:21   Link #2217
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
They why is he so pissed off?
That doesn't stopped him, though. Mugino appears and ended with his fun tormeting Accelerator.

No wonder why people thinks the fight became boring with Mugino on it.


Quote:
Acqua and Fiamma didn't downgrade their powers for fun though. In fact, NT Kakine and Bettle-kun are supposedly a freaking upgrades of Vol 15 kakine.
Supposedly. But evil Kakine got a plot ending by external interference, he didn't have total control on Dark Matter if a little interference caused by Rikou was enough to defeat him.

"The whole is more than the parts"
Beetle 05 can't go all out or evil Kakine might take control over the Dark Matter as it happened to him before.

To me, he just changed tactics now that he could use Dark Matter on other forms. All of this based on his obsesion with Accelerator and who has the bigger penis conflict.

He even forgot the plans he had for Aleister I wouldn't be surprised if he got "forgot"(because plot) that last part he realized about his powers before being trashed by Accelerator on vol.15.

Quote:
You're seriously using that sort of logic against dark matter which reflects light into bullstool particles? And are wings imbued with energy that can level buildings with a single strike the same as a normal "limb"?
Moreover, that "No, the white wings coming from the mask most likely could deflect those weakened Meltdowner attacks." was actually a quote for the novels. It's words of God, so don't ask me.
You're not getting my point across.

Which is: Dark Matter affects the energies from Meltdowner the moment it hits/touches it, making it useless. This based on the fight between #1 and #2.

Now, does that question what is on the novels? No.

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But I'm dead serious though.
For the wrong reasons though.
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Old 2014-04-24, 11:34   Link #2218
desrtsku
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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
That didn't stop him though.
Well, it did stop him from killing them. So yeah, it in fact did stop him.

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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
But evil Kakine got a plot ending by external interference, he didn't have total control on Dark Matter if a little interference caused by Rikou was enough to defeat him.
Where does the "if XXX works on him then he didn't have full control over his power" logic even come from? Takitsubou's powers works on everyone (that is an AC esper, naturally). And all she did was giving Beetle free will anyway, what defeated him was his own stupid self.

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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
"The whole is ... Accelerator on vol.15.
Is this a fanfiction or something? There's literally no proofs to what you were just saying in that part.

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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Which is: Dark Matter affects the energies from Meltdowner the moment it hits it, making it useless.
And you're not getting accross mine which is : he's deflecting it using an even more powerful blast instead of trying to transform meltdowner (or whatever you're trying to say).

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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Now, does that question what is on the novels? No.
Yes it does, because he never did it or was implied to be capable of doing that to something like meltdowner.

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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
For the wrong reasons though.
How, so?
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Old 2014-04-24, 11:37   Link #2219
Miraluka
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Trying to counter/post anything I post.

I if feel like answering I will do so, when Doom Paper does, I do, when Level7 does, I do. When you do... it feels like I'm getting into a pointles discussion with no constructive purpose.

So I'll play the "Dealt it with" trap card and just agree to disagree . It's not fun discuss with you now.

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Originally Posted by "Level7
aaahhh i misunderstood that :P
You noticed, fine :-)

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maybe he turned into that because he is so powerful
I may be daydreaming but I hope for the day Kakine realizes the he shouldn't be separated between good and evil parts, comes to an understanding and a new and ultimate Kakine is born, something like Accelerator at the end of the WWIII.
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Old 2014-04-24, 11:41   Link #2220
desrtsku
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Fine by me.
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