Chapter 208 [Manga] Discussion

[Elvanvitar]

Originally Posted by KiraDouji

You know... everyone's pretty confident in Byakuya's bankai, and while I will agree that both he and Senbonzakura are absolutely amazing... um... Ichigo beat him with a just achieved bankai? So compare Hitsu and Renji to Byakuya and Ikkaku, because that makes sense and all, but don't forget that someone who managed to essentially shatter Senbonzakura is having issues too.

Consider this: all of the shinigami have been or are being beaten pretty badly. The only one who even has a point for the team is Ikkaku, of whom we know the least about in terms of age, bankai, training, etc, etc... so let's not even get into that right now. Just look at it story wise - we're reaching a climax here. Kubo is building up to something. My personal opinion is that it's a character (re?)introduction.

I can see... Urahara, Yoruichi, Isshin, Quincies or Visored. Or a mix. But what I could also see is Aizen or someone from Aizen inc. to come down and say "wtf are you doing? Home. Now." although, I think that'd be the lamest plot device Kubo could use at this point. We're really not a place to add a 'level-up' so to speak, but we are certainly being driven towards some plot mover and right now it's looking like characters.

- Kira

Well, Rukia did kill that one guy. And hollow Ichigo beat Byakuya. I definately think Byakuya could handle an Arrancar just fine. And I know that the one Visored said that him and Ichigo are the same thing. But is that really the case? Visored are basically shinigami who gain hollow masks. Arrancar are hollows that lose their masks. Ichigo really is neither. He has had his shinigami powers and hollow mask since the inception.

[Dark`]

Originally Posted by Elvanvitar

Well, Rukia did kill that one guy. And hollow Ichigo beat Byakuya. I definately think Byakuya could handle an Arrancar just fine. And I know that the one Visored said that him and Ichigo are the same thing. But is that really the case? Visored are basically shinigami who gain hollow masks. Arrancar are hollows that lose their masks. Ichigo really is neither. He has had his shinigami powers and hollow mask since the inception.

Technically speaking, he had Shinigami powers first (Episode 1, Rukia transferred her powers to Ichigo). It's true that afterwards he lost that power and had to regain it, but in terms of chronology, he had the powers first before he gained the Hollow mask. It's just that he regained his powers at the same time he got the Hollow mask. However, this could simply be nothing more than a plot hole (typical of Shounen manga...especially ones with this amount of fighting... *glances over at DBZ*)

[Elvanvitar]

Originally Posted by Dark`

Technically speaking, he had Shinigami powers first (Episode 1, Rukia transferred her powers to Ichigo). It's true that afterwards he lost that power and had to regain it, but in terms of chronology, he had the powers first before he gained the Hollow mask. It's just that he regained his powers at the same time he got the Hollow mask. However, this could simply be nothing more than a plot hole (typical of Shounen manga...especially ones with this amount of fighting... *glances over at DBZ*)

Yes, but the powers were never his own. From how they explained it, any human would be able to gain shinigami powers through the transfer deal. From the time had got his own shinigami powers, he always had the hollow side.

[Dark`]

Originally Posted by Elvanvitar

Yes, but the powers were never his own. From how they explained it, any human would be able to gain shinigami powers through the transfer deal. From the time had got his own shinigami powers, he always had the hollow side.

Any human that survives the transfer process anyways. However, it was also mentioned that Rukia's powers awakened his own dormant powers. Thus, you can also argue that if his latent powers were no longer latent, that he was, in a manner of speaking, basically a full-fledged Shinigami already (in terms the power he possesses, not talking about recognition from Soul Society). The process that he went through with Urahara was likely (and I'm speculating here, I'll admit that. I'm not trying to pass this off as fact or anything) meant to bring those powers that were awakened to the forefront. He was always relying on Rukia's power and such, thus he never had a reason to use his own strength, so it's reasonable to say that he didn't know he had his own Shinigami powers, and why he would be unable to use them at all.

Take, for instance, Card Captor Sakura. The heroine, Sakura, had her own magic. Yet in the beginning, she had no idea how to call upon it, or how to use it at all. She basically relied on the magic of Clow and used that as a crutch. It wasn't until later (with some help of course) that her own powers began to surface and she began to take advantage of her own strength.

Again, all purely speculation (none of us are Kubo Tite after all =p), but that's how I view this whole situation. Purely my own opinion.

[Elvanvitar]

Originally Posted by Dark`

Any human that survives the transfer process anyways. However, it was also mentioned that Rukia's powers awakened his own dormant powers. Thus, you can also argue that if his latent powers were no longer latent, that he was, in a manner of speaking, basically a full-fledged Shinigami already (in terms the power he possesses, not talking about recognition from Soul Society). The process that he went through with Urahara was likely (and I'm speculating here, I'll admit that. I'm not trying to pass this off as fact or anything) meant to bring those powers that were awakened to the forefront. He was always relying on Rukia's power and such, thus he never had a reason to use his own strength, so it's reasonable to say that he didn't know he had his own Shinigami powers, and why he would be unable to use them at all.

Take, for instance, Card Captor Sakura. The heroine, Sakura, had her own magic. Yet in the beginning, she had no idea how to call upon it, or how to use it at all. She basically relied on the magic of Clow and used that as a crutch. It wasn't until later (with some help of course) that her own powers began to surface and she began to take advantage of her own strength.

Again, all purely speculation (none of us are Kubo Tite after all =p), but that's how I view this whole situation. Purely my own opinion.

That's a good possibility. I can't comment on CCS since I've never watched it. My take is that he never had shinigami powers. He obviously has a lot of spirit power, and thats likely one of the main reasons why he survived the transfer process. Humans obviously can have high amounts of spirit pressure and not be shinigami (ex: Quincy). I just think he gained his powers from Rukia then lost them. And then went through the special training from Urahara to make him a Shinigami (or Vizored). Hopefully we will find out later though which case it is.

This also makes me wonder who made the Vizored. Was it Urahara? I wouldn't think Shinigami could become them on their own.

[Gage]

Originally Posted by Elvanvitar

This also makes me wonder who made the Vizored. Was it Urahara? I wouldn't think Shinigami could become them on their own.

I've been wondering that myself. They obviously are not allied with Aizen and his Arrancar, and with Aizen's abilities if he had made them they would be under his Complete Hypnosis I'd expect.

So far, we only know of 2 (possibly 3) people who could create them. Aizen, Urahara, and possibly the currently 12th division captain (Name escapes me). Since he took over the Reseach Division, it is possible he found some of Urahara's old notes, or managed to figure out how to do it.

Only other possability is that they have been around for a while, and just decided to come to the forefront.

Another interesting question is: If the Vizored are former Shinigami, who were they? Actual members of the Gotai 13 assumed to be dead, deserters, people who were never officially entered (like black ops, they don't officially exist)? That is why I think the 12th Captain may be involved. Neither Aizen or Urahara would have access to many Shinigami right now, but the Captain would.

[Arti]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

I can accept that.

But I'm not buying a 2 second power-up with fatal injuries healed instantly that boost him up so strong that he can beat someone who's argubly MUCH MUCH stronger than him in his full capabilities.

Even Ichigo needed days. Much less Hitsugaya who doesn't even have the main character special treatment.

Ichigo vs. Kenpachi.

[DoAsInfinity]

Originally Posted by Gage

...possibly the currently 12th division captain (Name escapes me).

Kurotsuchi Mayuri

[Kona]

Originally Posted by Gage

I've been wondering that myself. They obviously are not allied with Aizen and his Arrancar, and with Aizen's abilities if he had made them they would be under his Complete Hypnosis I'd expect.

So far, we only know of 2 (possibly 3) people who could create them. Aizen, Urahara, and possibly the currently 12th division captain (Name escapes me). Since he took over the Reseach Division, it is possible he found some of Urahara's old notes, or managed to figure out how to do it.

Only other possability is that they have been around for a while, and just decided to come to the forefront.

Another interesting question is: If the Vizored are former Shinigami, who were they? Actual members of the Gotai 13 assumed to be dead, deserters, people who were never officially entered (like black ops, they don't officially exist)? That is why I think the 12th Captain may be involved. Neither Aizen or Urahara would have access to many Shinigami right now, but the Captain would.

Mayuri? Hell no, he isnt strong enough ( sorry ronald mcdonald). Urahara is most likely the canditate. Aizen? nah, he has his vastrodes and his crew, doesnt make sense to have both vizards and arrankars on same side. Vizards joining up with SS and the "Earth" crew is most likely. I just dont see vizards being bad guys with the personalities they have and some of the goofy moments they have (you never know...). Well ichigo aint joining if it isnt helping this drama to be over not make any more..

O ya vizards are ex rogue shinigami who use forbidden techinique to gain hollow powers. Different method from what urahara used. Well, i do hope they pop out and help hitsugaya and renji ( he needs to lose, improve his technique same with renji) but this is kinda interesting.. The cover of 192 has hitsu,renji,ikkaku,kenpachi, ichigo and byakuya, all of them have already fought except byakuya and kenpachi and byakuya is 6th division captain... grimmjow is arrankar #6 and shawlong is arrankar # 11 ... kenpachi is captain of 11th divsion..They better play a role in the arc =/. Hmm i hope they come out and kenpachi bust out his shikai hahahaha... im dreaming to early...

[Gage]

Hmm, after re-reading Chp 188, I see what you mean about the Vizards, where Isshin says they are 'A rogue group of ex-shinigami who use forbidden techniques to gain the power of a hollow'.

That seems to say that the method is known in Soul Society, but is fobidden (How can you forbid something that isn't known?). Which begs the question... why didn't Aizen do that, instead of creating the Arancars? Or is Aizen already a Vizard? We know he is insanely powerful...

[Yaktura ::.]

Oh Puh-leeeez

Hitsu's bankai power up is so obviously ... it almost hurts.

[Gage]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Obviousy there has to be some major drawback. Maybe the natural way for a hollow to become an Arankal, or for a Shinigami to become a Vaizard, takes a very long time and is incomplete, while the Hougyoku is able to do the complete transformation in a short time.

Obviously there has to be a reason, and I don't think the author is going to keep it a secret forever.

Is it possible that the Vizards were created using Urahara's device? He knew it was dangerous, maybe he learned that because he created the Vizards and saw them go mad with power / go rogue / something, so he hid it so no more could be made.