The self-evident nature of opinion about anime

[Qilin]

I'm generally of the opinion that participation in long-winded discussions would require at least some degree of maturity on the part of all those involved. That includes having the gumption to recognize everything as opinions and conjectures, as well as not taking anything too seriously. Anyone who can't even do that much would be at fault for diving into the topic in the first place.

But then, I realize that my view is somewhat naive. It's silly of me to assume that an overwhelming majority of posters can separate emotional reactions from logical ones. There are even some who end up resorting to personal attacks. As such, I realize the practical limitations behind such an ideal. With that in mind, I often lace my opinions behind a simple "I believe" or "In my opinion". It's not all that hard to do anyway, so I figured, why not?

[Traece]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Uhmm.. Question, is a critic'c critic valid if he only watched a part of the series and never actually finish it? Its like saying "The foods here taste awful, knowing he only ate 1 out 5 of the dishes served."

Are you asking about official critics or people on Asuki?

As far as I'm concerned people can critique a series all they want if they've watched a majority of it. If someone has watched a portion of a series and stopped watching it because they didn't like it, they obviously have a specific reason for disliking it. At the same time, professionals often don't have the time to watch an entire series or play an entire game and thus have to give a rating based on a snippet of the whole thing. That makes their jobs a bit more difficult than we like to think, and makes it hard to give a proper critique. Often times those will be limited to very general things and what they watched, things like art style and the writing of the dialogue as well as the story.

Originally Posted by Qilin

I'm generally of the opinion that participation in long-winded discussions would require at least some degree of maturity on the part of all those involved. That includes having the gumption to recognize everything as opinions and conjectures, as well as not taking anything too seriously. Anyone who can't even do that much would be at fault for diving into the topic in the first place.

But then, I realize that my view is somewhat naive. It's silly of me to assume that an overwhelming majority of posters can separate emotional reactions from logical ones. There are even some who end up resorting to personal attacks. As such, I realize the practical limitations behind such an ideal. With that in mind, I often lace my opinions behind a simple "I believe" or "In my opinion". It's not all that hard to do anyway, so I figured, why not?

That's what people generally accept as the "proper" way to give an opinion. Saying that it's an opinion makes it an opinion. It's the difference between saying: "Bleach sucks," and "In my opinion Bleach just sucks." Both are equally terrible, but one is presented as factual and the other is presented as a one-word opinion.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Traece

Again, I have to agree here. I don't personally see a lot of arguments going on on Asuki these days, but I know they exist. They're a problem in one way or another and need to be dealt with. I'm sure Relentless didn't start this thread in an official moderator capacity, but it certainly helps bring attention to a real issue.

This definitely was not in response to any specific "argument" or problem, or truthfully targetted at any specific person, though Reckoner was inadvertently put on the defensive. I want to state clearly that I do not have any ill-will towards him and this was not intended as a thread to attack him or any other person. I used an example he posted to extend a conversation that was already being made in the original thread. Mostly, I just honestly want to try to better understand where people are coming from and why they state things the way they do. There are a lot of people who are generally very well-meaning but then they turn around and say something and I'm like "oh, why did you have to say it that way?"... as I see the angry/defensive posts that follow. And in my head I'm like "if only you'd just...!"... but we're all individuals with our own opinions and perspectives. (And yes, this is just my own *personal* perspective, and does not reflect the views of AnimeSuki on the whole or any other mod. In fact, other mods have argued with me about this too. We're all wired differently.)

As you can surmise, I'm very concerned with keep conversations constructive and productive. But I know that some people are even more concerned with any insinuation that negative opinions are being stifled. That is not ever my intent. But in trying to understand people's sensitivity to this point, I've had to try to do better at explaining myself. And I still need to do better.

Anyway, all that to say that if at least everyone from all points of view can think about this issue of tone (and understand where people are legitimately coming from), maybe be able to better understand each other. And if that could happen, I think it'd could only be a good thing. (Maybe it's just my upbringing, but as long as everyone's playing fair, sometimes you have a good argument and then everyone gets along better after that because they better understand where that person's coming from (even if you still disagree).)

Originally Posted by Traece

That's what people generally accept as the "proper" way to give an opinion. Saying that it's an opinion makes it an opinion. It's the difference between saying: "Bleach sucks," and "In my opinion Bleach just sucks." Both are equally terrible, but one is presented as factual and the other is presented as a one-word opinion.

Better still if someone could say "I don't/can't enjoy Bleach" rather than either, because you're appealing to common ground even amidst disagreement. Everyone has things they do and don't enjoy or like. So if someone doesn't enjoy something that you do, you may be inclined to ask why they feel that way. You could still ask the same question for either of the others, but historical evidence supports that people with bluntly-stated negative opinions tend to just not be very reasonable (even if they sometimes add "in my opinion"). I tend to avoid these sorts of people, personally.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Traece

Are you asking about official critics or people on Asuki?

Official critics... like those who post on blogs and magazines... if any

[Ithekro]

The question is more "why be a critic at all?' Why force oneself to go through all that just to post an opinion to people (without it being one's job)?

I don't watch a lot of anime specifically because I don't care for some types of shows. I don't go into around watching something I don't care for just so I can tell people it is bad and why it is bad. I generally consider that a waste of time, both mine and other people's (because they will be reading seemingly pages of criticisms from someone that knew they didn't like something and seems to only be spending their time picking though it to find more things they don't like). I seems illogical to do something one does not like intentionally, for one's free time, without compensation. Especially when there is no need to do so.

If one is doing it for content on a blog or website I can almost see it, but again, why subject one's self to something you don't like? For readership? If it is one's job, that is fine, people do worse things they don't like for money than watching anime they don't care for.

Not everything needs a "devil's advocate" as it was called.

[Tempester]

I think one of the issues here is that some people take other people's criticisms of anime too personally.

In other words, Mr. X likes an anime. Someone else criticizes that anime in an unusually harsh way, although they don't specifically use any personal insults against other people. Even so, Mr. X interprets the criticism to be an attack on him. I feel that this mentality is rather self-centered.

And I do think tone has importance. Believe me, I've seen countless cases of people flaunting their opinions in extremely rough and dismissive ways that make Reckoner's criticisms look nice and considerate. And I've seen countless ad hominems, too. Once you hang around these people enough, you learn not to take what people say about entertainment too personally and trust your own judgments more.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I seems illogical to do something one does not like intentionally, for one's free time, without compensation. Especially when there is no need to do so.

But there is compensation, maybe not of a monetary nature, but of a psychological one. One of Reckoner's last posts gave a few examples.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

If one is doing it for content on a blog or website I can almost see it, but again, why subject one's self to something you don't like? For readership? If it is one's job, that is fine, people do worse things they don't like for money than watching anime they don't care for.

This was already touched on before, but I have asked about this before to some self-proclaimed critics myself. And usually the answer comes down to some sort of personal drive or sense of purpose or accomplishment in doing so. Some people enjoy the "art" of critiquing itself. Some people want to have a varied experience. Some people like the experience of "giving absolutely everything a chance". And some people just find it more fun to write negative opinions than positive ones (so watch shows that give them more to say). I suppose there is no "wrong reason" to watch anime.

I'm personally with you, though; unless you paid me, I doubt you could force me to watch shows I'm not enjoying. There are plenty of other things I could do instead that I'd enjoy more.

Originally Posted by Tempester

In other words, Mr. X likes an anime. Someone else criticizes that anime in an unusually harsh way, although they don't specifically use any personal insults against other people. Even so, Mr. X interprets the criticism to be an attack on him. I feel that this mentality is rather self-centered.

I would suggest that you are not incorrect, but this is also not the total solution to the "problem" (as it were). (I'm not saying you're implying it's the total solution, but I have in fact heard some people suggest this.) Of course some people are just way too sensitive and take any negative opinion about a show they like as a personal affront. Obviously, that's not reasonable. But sometimes there are ways of stating an opinion that doesn't "specifically use any personal insults against other people" but is still really attacking of the fans (or the staff) if "any reasonable person" reads between the lines. In such a case, just saying "get a thicker skin" is a bit irresponsible as well. So of course, there is a balance here. It's obviously not always easy to draw the line (and, invariably, some people will be upset if they feel the line was not drawn in their favour).

[Warm Mist]

To be frank, stating your opinions as facts is both fun and useful for sparking some discussion, while just being nice and fluffy all the time contributes to the stagnation of a community.

This is why I go into 4chan's /a/ a lot, everyone there is free to word their opinions as they like, even if they're the most offensive pieces of text ever written. And most people there know that whatever wording anyone else had about a show, at the end of the day everything is a subjective opinion that doesn't need to be taken seriously.

What the OP is implying is basically asking for people to adapt to the fact that many won't receive their opinions well if they state them so assertively. I think the problem lies not in the one who says the "offensive" comment, but on the many who fail to take it as a mere opinion and thus get offended by it.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Warm Mist

This is why I go into 4chan's /a/ a lot, everyone there is free to word their opinions as they like, even if they're the most offensive pieces of text ever written. And most people there know that whatever wording anyone else had about a show, at the end of the day everything is a subjective opinion that doesn't need to be taken seriously.

That is fine if you're a community of anons because you don't really care about "getting along". People often go to anonymous forums because they want to be loud, unreasonable, and mouthy and not have to live with the human consequences. But this isn't an anonymous forum. Each person is accountable for what they say and they build a reputation based on that. People get to know each other personally, and they can even become friends. Making personal connections with other people is one of the many benefits a forum like this can provide. To that end, it's useful to not necessarily be a place where it feels like everyone is always at each others' throats.

There is a place for anonymous forums. But I think this should be a different kind of place.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Warm Mist

, at the end of the day everything is a subjective opinion that doesn't need to be taken seriously.

And that makes it a useless place to go to if you want your opinion to be taken seriouly

(not that I havn't seen a well thought out debate on /a/ but it's not a place I go to expecting to find one)

[Traece]

Originally Posted by Tempester

I think one of the issues here is that some people take other people's criticisms of anime too personally.

In other words, Mr. X likes an anime. Someone else criticizes that anime in an unusually harsh way, although they don't specifically use any personal insults against other people. Even so, Mr. X interprets the criticism to be an attack on him. I feel that this mentality is rather self-centered.

This is true. However, I wont say that it's necessarily unwarranted. I say that because human psychology is complicated. I suppose a simple way to put it would be: "This person doesn't like this thing I like? Is there something wrong with me? It must be you!" That's the absolute simplest way I can put it without getting into a world that I don't fully comprehend and don't ever intend to pursue in college.

It certainly is an issue. I often respond to people when they say something they disagree with, but I never tell them that they're wrong. Hopefully people aren't getting the wrong impression of me because of that. My fair warning to Asuki members who aren't accustomed to my antics: Be prepared.

When I was younger, around when I joined Asuki, I used to think of people more anonymously. I think that's normal for people of that age. Now I consider everyone to be an individual with their own lives and reasoning. You grow out of that mentality that you are in or around the center of the universe when you start to realize how big the world is. People who are argumentative here don't care about how people feel about them, and the people who are cautious about offending others do. Age is a big part of it.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Uhmm.. Question, is a critic'c critic valid if he only watched a part of the series and never actually finish it? Its like saying "The foods here taste awful, knowing he only ate 1 out 5 of the dishes served."

Some people love meta. I was watching some news pundit show the other night, and during one of the topical discussions (probably gun control), all of a sudden the three talking heads started babbling some political speak and references I had no clue of. I consider myself fairly astute when it comes to what is going on in the world, but for the life of me it felt like they were suddenly going into some weird tangent. I wanted to watch people discuss the topic, and not some long form meta about something related to it.

Similarly, I see this happen with a lot of anime critiquing. The episodic nature means they keep coming back, "reviewing" the episode (and either directly or not, the show as a whole) on a "art, sound, writing, etc" scale. At times, it reads like a blog critic. I've seen some incredibly dismissive comments based on first impressions that can't seem to be designed in any other way but to inform everyone that the poster is not a critical thinker. There's a huge lack of holistic thought in critical thinking, sadly. More than a lack of empathy, there's just a lack of thinking in terms of big picture and in writing to your audience.

The problem with a critic who says the food tastes awful isn't that he only tried one of the five dishes, but that he offers that opinion to an audience that isn't him. There's no "I only tried one, but..." to suggest an open mind, and the language and tone don't mesh with an audience in the midst of discovery. So it comes off as abrasive, especially if he repeats it after each new dish.

The other issue is that knowledge gaps exist. This goes back to my news reference. Those guys know more than I do about certain things. Or rather, they know more specific things. I couldn't discuss Okada if my life depended on it, or most voice actors, writers, or staff in general. So those things tend to go over my head. My interest in the show is often purely what is on screen, so that "meta" that might interest and influence another's opinion distracts from the information I am interested in discussing. Sort of like people discussing manga/novel info in an anime thread, it's just not something an anime only viewer wants to read or discuss. What is relevant to some, and not to others, etc.

To some extent, writers have to accommodate their audiences by managing themselves and their readers. Unfortunately this isn't as easy as it sounds, but for some people it seems like they don't really try, either.

[Blue-kun]

I don't think I have a lot to add, but in general I'd say I'm one person who will undeniably end up making some sort of claim when analyzing any sort of media I like/dislike. And I do this not because I'm trying to be rude or, hell, get into a fight, but simply because that is exactly what I feel will sum up my thoughts on it. Sure, usually said claims will come backed up by some reasons that led me to feel this way, but at the end of the day, it is still just an opinion and I do think that people, more often than not, aren't exactly able to judge just how much weight a simple opinion should have.

I mean, it's not about "not being taken seriously at all", but someone shouldn't feel the need to go on the defensive simply because another person said "Strike Witches makes extremely poor use of fanservice", no matter how big a fan of that series this person is. Again picking up on the Reckoner (sorry, you're now the guinea pig) case, I'm sure that if said Strike Witches fan made a rebuttal with the "I think it's great" line of reasoning and pointed out some of his reasons for thinking so, Reckoner wouldn't have flipped out at the guy and, instead, chances are they'd end up discussing things in a civilized way. I know it's happened with me quite a few times here before around here, especially when I get into those really fun animation debates with Kaioshin, hah.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

There is a place for anonymous forums. But I think this should be a different kind of place.

But even this is ultimately an anonymous forum, too. I've only met one other person from AS in real life. If we carried on these conversations in a room in person, I doubt they would ever become so heated.

Along with anonymity, I believe that the age and gender composition of the AS constituency plays a major role in fostering the tone of argumentation you find most repellent. Looking at the list of contributors in this thread, I don't see any of the women I know here represented. I doubt a conversation among a balanced mixture of men and women in their thirties or older would show the same tendencies to self-importance and bloviation that I find in the more obnoxious AS threads.

That said, I find many of the conversations I read at ANN even worse with much more personal invective. There is a small contingent of members there who routinely attack each other at the drop of a hat. I know that similar alignments exist here, too, but they seem less common. Perhaps that is because I watch a small number of fairly non-mainstream shows and rarely watch anything that focuses on high school, moe~, or ecchi. I find my fellow commentators in threads about shows like Space Brothers or Tsuritama friendly, courteous and informative.

[Infinite Zenith]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It's not personal, because I've seen a lot of people do it. I just will never understand why people do it, no matter who it is.

I think it arises because a handful of individuals are compelled to demonstrate their opinions are valid through the same mannerisms as they would when trying to defend a thesis statement of sorts. The idea of making bold claims and backing them up works when there is solid evidence to evidence such a claim (e.g. "It is clear from the relationship observed in the Smith et al. study that increasing the incubation time of E. coli results in a higher transfection rate using the FBPA plasmids...").

However, in anime and its related matters, "evidence" is restricted to things that explicitly happen within a show (e.g. "YuruYuri featured a school play depicting Snow White"). Any discussion about these events is restricted to opinion (for instance, A may find the school play funny, while B may find the same play unoriginal). Thus, regardless of any reason and logic we may choose to field, at the end of the day, it's still an opinion because there is no right way to view something. This is why there are fields dedicated to the interpretation and analysis of literature: even experts may see things differently and consider dissimilar aspects of a work to be significant.

As such, different people draw different conclusions, resulting in different opinions about what they might walk away from a particular scene/work/creation. This in part makes reading the different opinions amusing as well, as I gain insight into what the individual sees, but I never view it as "A is right and B is wrong". Thus, I would not regard anyone's opinion as being more correct/valid/important over anyone else's (and as such, you're also free to ignore my own speculated account on this phenomenon )

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

One thing I still don't find logical in this setting is the role of the critic.

Okay, you don't like the show. Okay fine, we get that.

*months pass*

Okay you still don't like this show. Why are you still watching it than?
"Because I am a critic."
Why?!

Why do you feel the need to be a critic? Watching something you don't like on your own time and posting about why you don't like it? It isn't like you are going to get paid to be a critic here, nor is it likely to gain you anything in particular.

It doesn't sound logical to spend ones time, spending hours even, watching something one doesn't like over and over again for months at a time, just to go around telling people why you don't like it...sometimes in detail. Especially if one is not getting paid to do it.

I can understand doing this for a few episodes because you are not sure what you are getting into, or changing one's mind later in a season because a show they liked turned to crap, but why subject oneself to something they know they don't like even before watching even one episode? Again, without pay.

Is there some hidden enjoyment I am missing?

You don't seem to understand what a critic is. Drop the rhetoric tone, because you are just heading towards the same fallacies in the opposite direction.

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Meta: I think relentlessflame has finally broken the silence after encountering multiple threads like the "VRO Fanservice" thread. I honestly think that it is annoying to find someone trying to enforce his/her opinions on others and turning a deaf ear on attempts to reason against said opinion.

On-topic: The discussion would have been much better if the opening poster used a less rant-ish tone. RLF probably snapped upon seeing that.

Your wording is poor. "Enforce" would imply active, unsolicited "corrections" to other people's opinions. Honestly, I think this happens more with non-critics telling critics or vice versa, depending on the forum.

I mean honestly, I've never received angry PM's telling me to stop praising a show. The opposite, however...

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

But even this is ultimately an anonymous forum, too. I've only met one other person from AS in real life. If we carried on these conversations in a room in person, I doubt they would ever become so heated.

I suppose it's either a different sort of anonymity, or perhaps a different way of looking at one's anonymity. For myself, even though people haven't "met me" (in person), I like to think that they can still "get to know me". That's one of the reasons, for example, that I have never changed nicknames over the years, and once I finally chose an avatar, I'm not so inclined to change it easily. And I do take my "reputation" at least somewhat seriously. I try to treat people the way I would want to be treated as much as possible. Perhaps part of that is indeed age (and/or the generation you come from). If someone did meet me in person, I suspect they would find me to be pretty similar to my forum self in most ways (and perhaps I'm more true to myself here than I am to a lot of people who do know me in real life).

But yes, even this is a sort of anonymity, even if we're not all "Anonymous".

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

That said, I find many of the conversations I read at ANN even worse with much more personal invective. There is a small contingent of members there who routinely attack each other at the drop of a hat. I know that similar alignments exist here, too, but they seem less common. Perhaps that is because I watch a small number of fairly non-mainstream shows and rarely watch anything that focuses on high school, moe~, or ecchi. I find my fellow commentators in threads about shows like Space Brothers or Tsuritama friendly, courteous and informative.

Yeah I agree about ANN. The talkback forum is the worst for sure.

[Marcus H.]

Your wording is poor.

That's what you get for talking with someone with English as a lingua franca.

I mean honestly, I've never received angry PM's telling me to stop praising a show. The opposite, however...

Of course. Support for a series is always wanted, no matter where it came from.

[Soverence]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I suppose it's either a different sort of anonymity, or perhaps a different way of looking at one's anonymity.

We all have a different identity on here, the forums is kind of like a different world I guess you could say. Well its quite true we can be the same person on the forums and off, I notice its very rare that people are exactly the same online and offline. Everyone acts different ways in different places and this is just another place for most of us.

On the main topic at hand, opinions in general are usually more well accepted if they have facts backing that opinion up because then the person with that opinion can argue using those facts supporting his opinion. The problem with criticism of almost any form of media is that most criticisms of "good/bad" media pieces have only more opinions backing them up meaning that there is no way to prove it true. Critics opinions of a specific show / media piece are usually held with a higher regard because they try to be as unbiased as possible (A good critic should do this at least) and logically present their opinions in the best way possible. So what makes for a good opinion then is when it can be backed by facts and if there is no true way to back your opinion by facts then present your opinion in the most unbiased and logical way possible.