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Old 2010-06-19, 11:49   Link #10001
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
I think the AMF and Divider are distinctly different. The AMF was a field that pending on the strength could make it much more difficult to use certain types of magic. The Divider is a personal ability the 'divides' the bonds holding the magic together, thus nullifying it completely.
There's a functional difference too. AMF as it was used in Strikers is a defensive system. When defending, you'll try to cover all possible approches, hence an omnidirectional field around the generator. On the other hand, the Divider is an offensive system. Since you know where you're going to place the attack, you'll focus the field at the point of the attack. Even if they both used the exact same technology, and there are suggestions that they don't, the focused attack version would be much more powerful while using the same amount of energy.
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Old 2010-06-19, 11:58   Link #10002
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Nanoha: "Wow, Fate-chan, the fanbase really has a lot of differences of opinions about everything, with Signum's rumored death being the latest."
Fate: "Yep. It looks like the fanbase" *puts on sunglasses* "just got divided!"

YYYYYEEEEAAAAAHHHH!!
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Old 2010-06-19, 12:35   Link #10003
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
No we wouldn't The next part of Railgun is the Sisters arc, and we all know who took care of Accelerator at the end of that one! The best parts of Railgun are when Touma shows up anyways.
Sorry, I meant the Anime series when it stop following the Manga and does it own thing


As for the whole situation of Force.

We got what seems like Anti-magic magics for the Antagonist, with Nanoha and Co. developing Anti-Anti-magic weapons. This might get ridicules later on if they decided to give the Antagonist an Anti-Anti-Anti-magic something or rather.
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Old 2010-06-19, 12:57   Link #10004
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Old 2010-06-19, 13:35   Link #10005
Michael Brazier
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Cypha didn't defeat Signum by overpowering her, or by exploiting a cheat. Cypha won because Signum made a tactical error, sending Agito off to bind Thoma instead of concentrating all their force on Cypha. It isn't even clear that the Eclipse version of antimagic is a "cheat" in the sense of being much stronger than the AMF Jail put in his drones. Cypha says it nullifies magical attacks, but Cypha is clearly arrogant to the point of megalomania. What we see is consistent with a personal AMF that badly erodes any magic approaching Cypha, and Cypha taking that for a complete nullification.

The Huckebein strike me as one-trick ponies -- they rely on the Eclipse antimagic for defense, because they've never run into a mage who knows how to compensate for that. In light of the fact (established in StrikerS) that standard TSAB training doesn't include fighting in AMF, that's quite credible; Nanoha and Vita know it's a problem, but they're not writing the TSAB curriculum yet. The Section Six reunion is therefore the worst possible thing for the Huckebein; those are precisely the TSAB mages with the most experience fighting against AMF. Throw in that we see Nanoha testing a kinetic kill weapon in the latest chapter ... I'd say the TSAB is ready to deal with the Huckebein. Signum's defeat was due more to strategic surprise and bad tactics than real weakness.
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Old 2010-06-19, 14:11   Link #10006
prescience
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Originally Posted by Michael Brazier View Post
Cypha didn't defeat Signum by overpowering her, or by exploiting a cheat. Cypha won because Signum made a tactical error, sending Agito off to bind Thoma instead of concentrating all their force on Cypha.
I beg to differ. It certainly was a tactical error for Signum not to be more cautious after Cypha got her power-up, but that's not why she lost. If you look at page 24, Cypha doesn't break Laevateinn with her sword, or even with her arm - it's her sleeve. That would need something ridiculous even if Signum's magic was completely nullified and Laevateinn was made of plastic. I find it hard to believe that Signum and Agito would have been able to curbstomp her if they were still in unison. In any case, there isn't any reason to disbelieve Cypha's claim that the Eclipse antimagic thing (is this what "Zero Effect" refers to?) provides complete magic nullification. She does seem overly arrogant, but I'm expecting she'll get her comeuppance from RF6 using kinetic weapons like the Strike Cannon, not from Eclipse turning out to be less effective than it seemed.

Basically, my take on it is that a conventional mage is completely outmatched against a competent Eclipse user, but that the tables will turn when Nanoha et al. bring nonconventional weapons to the table.

As an aside, I note that Vita mentions "my 03" and "Nanoha's 00" in addition to the 02 and 07 we've seen in Force NEXT. I wonder what they are? Goldion Hammer and 00 Gundam, anyone?
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Old 2010-06-19, 14:20   Link #10007
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It's also stated that Signum wasn't quite expected to run into them, but that they already have intel on them; hence the testing of the new weapons. Even during the fight, Signum was aware of certain things, but apparently didn't quite expect them to be that strong. Still, it all strikes me as a bit off... Signum should have been a bit more cautious, and treated Cypha as considerably more of a threat, not canceling the unison until Cypha was dealt with.

I keep expecting there to be something else, perhaps that bind spell that Agito left but wasn't used. Part of me wonders if Signum knows she can take that level of punishment, and deliberately let it happen, but that doesn't fit quite right with me, either.
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Old 2010-06-19, 18:46   Link #10008
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Originally Posted by prescience View Post
I beg to differ. It certainly was a tactical error for Signum not to be more cautious after Cypha got her power-up, but that's not why she lost. If you look at page 24, Cypha doesn't break Laevateinn with her sword, or even with her arm - it's her sleeve. That would need something ridiculous even if Signum's magic was completely nullified and Laevateinn was made of plastic. I find it hard to believe that Signum and Agito would have been able to curbstomp her if they were still in unison. In any case, there isn't any reason to disbelieve Cypha's claim that the Eclipse antimagic thing (is this what "Zero Effect" refers to?) provides complete magic nullification. She does seem overly arrogant, but I'm expecting she'll get her comeuppance from RF6 using kinetic weapons like the Strike Cannon, not from Eclipse turning out to be less effective than it seemed.

Basically, my take on it is that a conventional mage is completely outmatched against a competent Eclipse user, but that the tables will turn when Nanoha et al. bring nonconventional weapons to the table.
Yeah. Signum and Agito were extremely outmatched. Canceling the fusion was a mistake that led to an almost instantaneous total defeat, but it wouldn't have made a difference in the long run. They definitely need new weapons to take on Huckebein.

Quote:
As an aside, I note that Vita mentions "my 03" and "Nanoha's 00" in addition to the 02 and 07 we've seen in Force NEXT. I wonder what they are? Goldion Hammer and 00 Gundam, anyone?
Nanoha's new weapon certainly looks like it belongs on the 00 Gundam.
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Old 2010-06-19, 19:10   Link #10009
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...Strike Cannon is the GN Sword V?! *_*
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Old 2010-06-19, 19:36   Link #10010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prescience View Post
As an aside, I note that Vita mentions "my 03" and "Nanoha's 00" in addition to the 02 and 07 we've seen in Force NEXT. I wonder what they are? Goldion Hammer and 00 Gundam, anyone?
03 could just be Vita's Strike Cannon.
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Old 2010-06-19, 22:56   Link #10011
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Originally Posted by ZeroIchiNi View Post
As for the whole situation of Force.

We got what seems like Anti-magic magics for the Antagonist, with Nanoha and Co. developing Anti-Anti-magic weapons. This might get ridicules later on if they decided to give the Antagonist an Anti-Anti-Anti-magic something or rather.
To be honest, I do not really agree with the whole "anti-magic is cheating" stigma. In warfare, when your enemy (or even yourself) possess a revolutionary mean of war then the natural response is to: 1) Make your own; 2) Find a counter. For arrows there are shields, for radar there are stealth materials, and for ICBM there are anti-ballistic missiles. That's how armies keep themselves comparatively equal against others , by keeping up with the ongoing arms race. Signum losing to Cypha is like an F-15 losing to an F-22 (or a Flag against a Gundam); the relatively unskilled enemy only managed to beat her because of overwhelming difference in equipment . Once the other agents start to bring their Eclipse-equivalent weapons the Hucks will be screwed .

In fact, the impression I got from StrikerS and Force is that Nanoha and Hayate are currently trying to implement Earth-style military ideas into the relatively stagnant TSAB Peacekeeping Force. For example:
1. Hayate's idea of a small task force comprised of highly-trained specialist is apparently uncommon among the Bureau.
2. Nanoha refused the notion from the top brass that the AMF is something harmless and decided to secretly do some research and teach her cadets on counter-AMF warfare.
3. After years of finding ancient techs that always seem to be superior against their current gears, their response in Force is to initiate a new weapons R&D project so that in an emergency Bureau agents would only need to request access on higher-level clearance equipments instead of praying for luck that they would stumble upon an ancient super weapon to defeat the enemy . In W40K terms, this would mean that they stopped relying solely on STCs and let the Techpriests think of new ideas . One couldn't help but think that had the Bureau not ban combat drones like the ones made by Jail S., Nanoha and Hayate would probably have use them for reconnaissance and fire support similar to earth's UAVs .

Oh daughters of Earth, you make us all proud ...
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Old 2010-06-20, 01:17   Link #10012
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In resume, the Hot Blood and Rule of Cool are slowly being replaced by military strategy and antagonizing technologies outmatching each other on a constant basis?

...ladies and gentlemen "ROSSIU WAS RIGHT"
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Old 2010-06-20, 01:22   Link #10013
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Military strategy and technological arms races done right are always more interesting in the long term than Hot Blood and Rule of Cool. But then again, who says you can't do both?
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Old 2010-06-20, 02:06   Link #10014
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So this is like the mid-season upgrade used frequently on the gundam franchise?(you know, when the "main" gundams are destroyed and somehow replaced by new more powerfull ones with some resemblance to the originals), it's kind of cool indeed but i feels it made the dynamic of battles lost some of their "romance", you know, when you can fight against the circunstances and win by a combination of skill and strenght, now it's all by "who has the biggest gun". Sure, Huckbein wil be eventualy defeated ...by almost the same means they used first, it would be interesting if some of the main characters can make it out of a thigt spot by her own(for example: Vita's new equipement is not ready for efectively use, but, during an emergency she would use it anyways, i could be totally awesome if at some point of the battle her new weapon fails or is wrecked and she recours to her old and thrustfull Graf Eisen and somehow manage to smash the face of one of the Huckies) like Teana in StrikerS, the numbers outmach her in every aspect(strenght, stamina, power level and equipement) and she manage to defeat three of them(with equal awesome assistance from Vice) or the Fate VS. Vita first encounter. About the Hot Blood/Rule of Cool thing, maybe is the very reason of why Signum was nearly killed and why i have a so familiar feeling, Cool characters don't last for long in this kind of enviroment(Roy Focker and Kamina are prime examples).

Well, it is implied that it's some new(but untested) equipement for Signum as well so that maybe she gets to use it(or someone as a homage) but i still feel sorry for Laevatein, we never get to see the Phantom Phoenix(Bogenform + Agito xD!), i think she won't need any upgrades(besides Agito and a repaired Laevatein) but only knowledge to made countermeasures for Eclipse-powered attacks. Finally, something came to my mind after seeing Reinforce Zwei freezing some Gadget Drones, she magically controls wind and temperature but the consecuences of her spells(Ice, Coldness, windblows) are not tied to her magic, so in theory Rein's speels(and some of the "area effect" ones of Hayate), if used properly, can actually DO damage to an Eclipse-infected individual? ...if that's the case, what's with Zafira's err..uhm... pikes? sure it's an spell but once it's summoned it work like a physical spear(well, nevermind about that one, a "reacted" Huckie can just shrugg off that one like nothing), it may be tricky but still a form of emergency measure to deal with them by using magic to affect the enviroment and indirectly attack them.

Accurate?:
MSLN = Card Captor Sakura + Gundam
MSLN A's = Magic Knight Rayearth + DBZ
MSLN StrikerS = Gundam + Macross + a bit of Sailor Moon
MSLN ViVid = Magical Doremi + Street Fighter
MSLN FORCE = Macross + Gundam Wing + Cold War + HALO?
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Old 2010-06-20, 02:32   Link #10015
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Huh, gravity might work well, although we haven't seen any gravity based spells yet. And we never did see Chrono use that Durandal staff after A's... Besides, we haven't gotten to see Chrono in ages. It's a good excuse!
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Old 2010-06-20, 04:38   Link #10016
Koveras Alvane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Perhaps an enemy whose weapon preys on one of the characters other defining traits. Like friendship, or homoerotic sexual tension.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blank-Mage View Post
That would make this the best manga ever.
Seconded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
Nanoha would be doomed.
Nanoha: "No, Feito-chan, we cannot hold hands anymore, because that will make them stronger!"
Fate: *complete mental breakdown*
Nanoha: *holds hands*
Nana Mizuki: *sings*
Asskicking: *ensues*
Nanoha & Fate: *marry*
HAPPY END

Nothing can beat Nanofate homoerotic tension!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
No wonder why A's is regarded as the best season it has very good writing.
I think it's regarded as best season because it had a conflict without villains, only Lawful Good vs. Chaotic Good. You don't see that often nowadays. ^^

Quote:
when it's true that the Wolkenritter attacks mages without hesitation, they actually restrain themselves to avoid bloody consecuences
I think Signum says in a Sound Stage that they planned to turn themselves in to TSAB when the whole thing was over, so they didn't want to extend their crime record any more than necessary.

Quote:
...Fanboy time!:

...if it DOES end in Signum's death ...the writers would need to pull out lots of EPICNESS! and Heroic ASSKICKING! to calm and satisfy all those unconsolable hearts!
Yup, that's what I say, too. ^^ AND they have to give us Signum Zwei as a replacement. O__o Loli!Signum, anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
That doesn't make it bad writing. Killing some one off so suddenly like that is much better for drama than the usual "Oh look, there's more focus on this character than normal... they're doomed." So yeah, not bad writing. It'd be bad writing if she got killed by some weakling mook when she should be much stronger than them. But here, if dead, she'd be killed by something specifically designed to kill her, so it's hardly unreasonable.
Using Worf Effect is always bad writing, if you ask me. It was my issue with the previous seasons (except ViVid, where it was played nicely with the tracker device), too...

Quote:
I think the AMF and Divider are distinctly different. The AMF was a field that pending on the strength could make it much more difficult to use certain types of magic. The Divider is a personal ability the 'divides' the bonds holding the magic together, thus nullifying it completely.
Yes, they are different. But they have essentially the same function. Btw, wasn't AMF used at the beginning of StrikerS as a shield, of sorts, which with the Gadget Drones absorbed incoming attacks? I have no idea how that ties in with "AMF makes it more difficult for mages to cast magic" definition, but it's exactly what Cypha did with Signum's shooting spell.

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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
About Lily, I'm thinking that her final fate will be something like Kurenai to Kurei in Flame of Recca; she will merge with him as a reactor while still being somewhat alive within Tohma. To tell you the truth, this is the first thing that comes in mind after rereading chapter 00's "we will be together forever" line ...that would be quite a sad ending, though
But I think this is what it's going to be...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Nanoha: "Wow, Fate-chan, the fanbase really has a lot of differences of opinions about everything, with Signum's rumored death being the latest."
Fate: "Yep. It looks like the fanbase" *puts on sunglasses* "just got divided!"

YYYYYEEEEAAAAAHHHH!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroIchiNi View Post
As for the whole situation of Force.

We got what seems like Anti-magic magics for the Antagonist, with Nanoha and Co. developing Anti-Anti-magic weapons. This might get ridicules later on if they decided to give the Antagonist an Anti-Anti-Anti-magic something or rather.
Lensman Arms Race!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Brazier View Post
Cypha didn't defeat Signum by overpowering her, or by exploiting a cheat. Cypha won because Signum made a tactical error, sending Agito off to bind Thoma instead of concentrating all their force on Cypha.
Unfortunately, that was her only choice. She had two Eclipse Drivers to fight, and if she concentrated on Cypha, there would be no guarantee that Thoma wouldn't stab her in the back. And if he didn't stab her immediately, he would go after Lily (and Isis, but Signum didn't see her, I think), who is a civilian in Signum's eyes. Unisoning out was the only correct choice for a TSAB enforcer in that situation, even if it was a bad plan.

Signum has made not mistake, she has merely made a choice between a) facing two EC-infected at once, b) having a civilian killed and then facing two EC-infected at once, and c) having a small chance of both saving the civilian, and restraining both EC-infected separately. The fact that Cypha forced that choice upon her is cheating, because it's not knightly at all. I do agree, however, that it is not cheating in warfare terms: all war is based on deception.

On a side note, Signum herself also did some unknightly things in A's, but at least she cared about restoring her honor later, which made the consequences less drastic and herself, easier to forgive. Cypha... not so much. And here I was, hoping that another hot swordswoman I could root for was introduced...

However, the whole motif of machineguns replacing chivalry is plain depressing. Do not want.
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Old 2010-06-20, 08:23   Link #10017
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So, I'm guessing Subaru met Thouma/Touma around... Just after Sound Stage X then? It seems that way.
Or just before. She was going on about not being able to save everyone in SSX as well.
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Old 2010-06-20, 09:01   Link #10018
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane View Post
However, the whole motif of machineguns replacing chivalry is plain depressing. Do not want.
Reminds me of a line I saw used as a signature on another forum, "The warriors are no longer around. The soliders killed them all."
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Old 2010-06-20, 09:18   Link #10019
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
It's kind of cool indeed but i feels it made the dynamic of battles lost some of their "romance", you know, when you can fight against the circumstances and win by a combination of skill and strength, now it's all by "who has the biggest gun".
By Heracles, this is the end of man's valor!
King Archidamus of Sparta (IV century B.C.), according to Plutarch, cried out on seeing the missile shot by a catapult. .
Yeah, the notion that technology kills chivalry is really old. Then again, all is fair in love and war .

To be fair though, the arms race has already begun during A's. In case you forgotten, one of the reason Fate and Nanoha got curb-stomped in their first encounter against the Wolkenritter is that the latter can boost their powers using the Cartridge System. When their own devices got upgraded with the Cartridge System, skill and strength once again mattered . History repeats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
About the Hot Blood/Rule of Cool thing, maybe is the very reason of why Signum was nearly killed and why i have a so familiar feeling, Cool characters don't last for long in this kind of environment (Roy Focker and Kamina are prime examples).
The line between brave and reckless has always been thin. Still, I think Signum's loss is less because of being hot-blooded and more of being unprepared; it's already stated that she wasn't supposed to face fight Huckebein this early but circumstances forced otherwise .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Well, it is implied that it's some new(but untested) equipment for Signum as well so that maybe she gets to use it(or someone as a homage) but i still feel sorry for Laevatein, we never get to see the Phantom Phoenix(Bogenform + Agito xD!), i think she won't need any upgrades(besides Agito and a repaired Laevatein) but only knowledge to made countermeasures for Eclipse-powered attacks.
Will the new equipment really replace the old devices instead of complementing them? Don't lose hope yet , we don't even know how they would be used for now . Who knows, maybe the new weapons are actually upgrade modules for the old devices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
MSLN = Card Captor Sakura + Gundam
This one's quite appropriate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
MSLN A's = Magic Knight Rayearth + DBZ
I assume the Magic Knight refers to the sad ending (though I still hate CLAMP in general), but I don't get the DBZ one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
MSLN StrikerS = Gundam + Macross + a bit of Sailor Moon
Too few missile barrages for Macross

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
MSLN ViVid = Magical Doremi + Street Fighter
Quite fitting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
MSLN FORCE = Macross + Gundam Wing + Cold War + HALO?
I'll hold my opinion on this one until I actually see where the series is really heading I think Modern Warfare series fits better than HALO though,
Spoiler for MW2:
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Old 2010-06-20, 09:23   Link #10020
LoweGear
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Will the new equipment really replace the old devices instead of complementing them?
From what we're seeing of Force Next though, the new devices are introduced to complement the existing devices rather than replace them: RH is reassigned to a large Bit when Nanoha has the Strike Cannon, and Subaru's Sword Breaker completes her arsenal of extremity-mounted devices by taking residence on her previously unarmed left hand while keeping Mach Caliber and Revolver Knuckle in place.
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