Toradora! - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[Miles Teg]

Originally Posted by Fran~

done... but we already discuss that... but im ok with it.

I don't really care about spoiler, but some moderator don't hesitate to give infraction/ban when spoiler for future event appear in the episode thread (even in spoiler tag).

[Fran~]

Thanks!

[Kazuma77]

it wasn't so exciting as previous episode, but can't wait for a new one I was hoping for this pairing since beginning of this show

[Janifuu]

Originally Posted by frivolity

It's been mentioned by everyone, but Minori's focus on keeping busy comes about because she's running away from the truth. Rather than believing in ghosts (love) that she cannot see, she would rather keep the things she can see (friendship with Taiga), and devote her efforts on tangible things (work).

I agree with this observation of Minori regarding her metaphors.

From my perspective of Minori's "ghost" terminology, she says "They'll only appear in front of people who they want to see and understand them." Notice she referred to Ami as being a ghost also, because she knows Ami is someone who wants to be understood. Perhaps this is the leading cause of Ami's continuous anger and frustration towards everyone, she simply wants to be heard. ( Also refer back to episode 19 as an example of one of those occasions, when Ami walked away from Ryuuji in frustration because he didn't listen to any of her prior advice.)

What I think I've also picked up on Minori's "ghost" metaphor is that she may at one point have thought that she potentially found someone to invest her feelings into, but those feelings were either not strong enough to be "seen" or was not among her priorities in life.

"I don't want to yearn and get caught by something I can't see... and lose the things I can see."

What she would prefer to invest her heart into are the definite standpoints in life that shes had, being Taiga's friendship or misc other productivity shes been engaged in. I think at the end of the discussion between her and Ami when she was saying that she wont hesitate anymore and wont give up, I think this is what it was in regards to.

[fish eric]

Originally Posted by Janifuu

I agree with this observation of Minori regarding her metaphors.

From my perspective of Minori's "ghost" terminology, she says "They'll only appear in front of people who they want to see and understand them." Notice she referred to Ami as being a ghost also, because she knows Ami is someone who wants to be understood. Perhaps this is the leading cause of Ami's continuous anger and frustration towards everyone, she simply wants to be heard. ( Also refer back to episode 19 as an example of one of those occasions, when Ami walked away from Ryuuji in frustration because he didn't listen to any of her prior advice.)

What I think I've also picked up on Minori's "ghost" metaphor is that she may at one point have thought that she potentially found someone to invest her feelings into, but those feelings were either not strong enough to be "seen" or was not among her priorities in life.

"I don't want to yearn and get caught by something I can't see... and lose the things I can see."

What she would prefer to invest her heart into are the definite standpoints in life that shes had, being Taiga's friendship or misc other productivity shes been engaged in. I think at the end of the discussion between her and Ami when she was saying that she wont hesitate anymore and wont give up, I think this is what it was in regards to.

You make a good point about the "ghost wanting to be seen" Ami wants to be seen so desperately and for minori to say that probably really pissed her off.

but when she says that she wont hesitate any longer that sounds like she changed her mind about something. so she is already working hard to keep her mind off things that are hurtful so maybe she is gonna confess to ryuji.

[Deathscyther]

Originally Posted by fish eric

but when she says that she wont hesitate any longer that sounds like she changed her mind about something. so she is already working hard to keep her mind off things that are hurtful so maybe she is gonna confess to ryuji.

I'm thinking the opposite myself. I think she meant that she'll stop thinking about her 'love' for Ryuuji and will focus on her goals in life/her future.

[fish eric]

Did anyone else notice the scene where Ami got made and went to her spot and thought it was Ryuji coming around the corner?

When she sees that is Minori she gets a really disapointed and then says

"Why did it have to be you?"

[weksa]

watching it a second time around:

1) I noticed that when Ami's hiding between the vending machines and hears the footsteps, she looks up surprised. She might've thought, "No way, could it be Ryuuji?" When she realizes it's Minori, she sighs, "Why must it be you?" Haha, alas, no knight in shining armor to come for her.

2) When Taiga shows Ryuuji her forehead wound and says "it's not that bad" and that she's fine, I can't help but think of it as a symbol of her heartache over Ryuuji. To get over it she spends time with her mom. "I was just being a child!" Young children don't have to worry about romantic love. Despite saying that, she still comes out as mature: she's not receding but moving forward, as she continues to sacrifice herself for Ryuuji+Minori.

3) Ryuuji is so absent-minded now, thinking of Taiga, that normally he would've helped her get her apartment window open right away. But no, she had to ask him to help.

4) "A highly secured mansion isn't always convenient." The music starts getting all romantic as Ryuuji says that and Taiga climbs onto the railing. As I reflect on that phrase, I think of how before Taiga met Ryuuji, Taiga was supposedly always by herself in that apartment. In an episode not too long ago, Minori mentioned that she had only been there once and never went back. As it is now, Taiga is trying to hole up her feelings, keeping them secure... she's crossing from being with Ryuuji back to her own apartment, trying to get by on her own.

[weksa]

Originally Posted by fish eric

Did anyone else notice the scene where Ami got made and went to her spot and thought it was Ryuji coming around the corner?

When she sees that is Minori she gets a really disapointed and then says

"Why did it have to be you?"

Hahhaah I was taking a while to write my thing so I hadn't seen your post yet. Yes indeed I noticed it!

[War_Lord]

After watching 22 episodes, I can finally confirm that this is the most psychological comedy/romance anime I've ever watched. it truly is a unique series. Looking forward to next week's episode.

Did anyone else notice the scene where Ami got made and went to her spot and thought it was Ryuji coming around the corner?

When she sees that is Minori she gets a really disapointed and then says

"Why did it have to be you?"

I noticed it surprisingly fast (before the subs came out). Ami and Minorin aren't too different from each other on account of they're both romantically challenged. Well I guess that goes for all three girls (in addition to the ex school president).

[Flash Gordon]

Spoiler for fun facts:

[09:43] <FlashGordon> Ami is the most irrelevant character in Japan's history what are you on
[09:44] <zeroj> r u dum
[09:44] <zeroj> minorin is ghay
[09:44] <zeroj> and
[09:44] <zeroj> taiga is illegal
[09:44] <FlashGordon> Minori's fighting her desire to be with Ryuuji.
[09:45] <FlashGordon> Taiga's fighting her desire to be with Ryuuji.
[09:45] <FlashGordon> Ami
[09:45] <FlashGordon> is chilling between vending machines.
[09:45] <aubz> ^

[puppygod]

Originally Posted by War_Lord

After watching 22 episodes, I can finally confirm that this is the most psychological comedy/romance anime I've ever watched. it truly is a unique series. Looking forward to next week's episode.

Oh yes. It's really strong in the characterization department. All major characters are broken in some way, but we have quite convincing reasons why they are that way. Quirks are not just because, but actually correspond nicely to character history. Also, characters change over time, and by evolution rather than revolution. While there are moments of great realizations, they don't cause immediate change in characters behavior. What imho is very nice touch of realism.

As a side effect, this may be reason behind outrage among some fans, who are used to more typical for anime, "comic book" style of characterization. You know, with character traits distributed randomly among cast and character development punctuated by climactic moments that clearly divide them into "before" and "after" templates.

[Vexx]

So far, every series I've watched that was based on a light novel series rather than manga or eroge has had relatively sophisticated character definition and evolution. People who are quick to ascribe particular anime archetype memes to the characters or storylines basically out themselves as "not really paying attention". It seems like their real intent is to be able to easily label and dismiss a series.

[NeoSpyder]

God, Ryuuji got on my nerves.
It seems the only time he isn't freaking out is when he's alone studying.

Ryuuji-- The reason weed needs to be legalized.
He should smoke a few bricks.

[errorrrr]

Honestly, I can't help but do think Ami's creation in this series was crime against Ami... she seems so superflous in this, not to mention her affliation/affection/emtion ... she just feels like character introduced for the sake of introducing or as a rival to Taiga. Even in that aspect, she fails in every single way.

Ami's character is totally wasted in this series. In all honesty, Ami is a much more creative/innovative candidate for Ryuuji's interest. We've all seen Taiga's prototype so many times leading the romance, but I really like to see a lot more Ami's relationship gets fleshed out.

I really dislike the fact the anime placed so much emphasis on empathizing with Taiga, like she is the only one that has trouble in life. Ami's trouble, while not as apparent runs just as deep as Taiga...

Like Taiga, Ami has no 'real' friends to speak of, no one to even listen to her... not to mention no one to even cook for her. I am usually not this disgusted at these one-sided sympathy, but the anime truely disgusts me on how one-sided it is...

[Noe]

This episode was cute.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Vexx

So far, every series I've watched that was based on a light novel series rather than manga or eroge has had relatively sophisticated character definition and evolution. People who are quick to ascribe particular anime archetype memes to the characters or storylines basically out themselves as "not really paying attention". It seems like their real intent is to be able to easily label and dismiss a series.

Hey, archetypes are useful for defining how a character should behave in a given situation. They're a good storybuilding/telling tool.

They're also useful for when characters break out of that particular mold, like Taiga does. (To an extent. Still didn't like how she slapped Ryuuji around this episode, but at least it got him to calm down a little.)

Originally Posted by NeoSpyder

God, Ryuuji got on my nerves.
It seems the only time he isn't freaking out is when he's alone studying.

Hey, at least he isn't Emotionless Eroge Adaptation Lead X.

[errorrrr]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Hey, archetypes are useful for defining how a character should behave in a given situation. They're a good storybuilding/telling tool.

They're also useful for when characters break out of that particular mold, like Taiga does. (To an extent. Still didn't like how she slapped Ryuuji around this episode, but at least it got him to calm down a little.)



Hey, at least he isn't Emotionless Eroge Adaptation Lead X.

He is denser than "Emotionless Eroge Adaptation Lead" which is one of the most disheartening aspect of this anime... It

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by errorrrr

Honestly, I can't help but do think Ami's creation in this series was crime against Ami... she seems so superflous in this, not to mention her affliation/affection/emtion ... she just feels like character introduced for the sake of introducing or as a rival to Taiga. Even in that aspect, she fails in every single way.

Ami was introduced in order to bring in general conflict and as a catalyst to future events.

She also functions as somewhat of a Greek Chorus. Just a very proactive one.

Originally Posted by errorrrr

I really dislike the fact the anime placed so much emphasis on empathizing with Taiga, like she is the only one that has trouble in life. Ami's trouble, while not as apparent runs just as deep as Taiga...

Like Taiga, Ami has no 'real' friends to speak of, no one to even listen to her... not to mention no one to even cook for her. I am usually not this disgusted at these one-sided sympathy, but the anime truely disgusts me on how one-sided it is...

Ami does, however, have at least one caring parent and a successful modeling career. She's also extremely pretty and gifted with an amazing figure and social skills.

Taiga, although pretty, doesn't have much else.

Taiga is worse off.

Originally Posted by errorrrr

He is denser than "Emotionless Eroge Adaptation Lead" which is one of the most disheartening aspect of this anime... It

...How many eroge adaptations have you actually seen?

Ryuuji is only really dense when it comes to Ami, and that's because Ami continues to send mixed signals and half the fans can't even tell how she really feels.

[fish eric]

Originally Posted by puppygod

Oh yes. It's really strong in the characterization department. All major characters are broken in some way, but we have quite convincing reasons why they are that way. Quirks are not just because, but actually correspond nicely to character history. Also, characters change over time, and by evolution rather than revolution. While there are moments of great realizations, they don't cause immediate change in characters behavior. What imho is very nice touch of realism.

As a side effect, this may be reason behind outrage among some fans, who are used to more typical for anime, "comic book" style of characterization. You know, with character traits distributed randomly among cast and character development punctuated by climactic moments that clearly divide them into "before" and "after" templates.

I agree with your statement. I really like flawed characters.

I've always hated Super Man. He can't be shot, he's faster than anyone else, stronger. There is no fun in that.

A character like House from House MD is much more interesting. Someone who is really broken.

Ami really is a great character and I feel bad for her. In the beginning of the series Ryuji keeps saying to her

"Take of your mask. Take of your mask. Why do you always gotta wear that mask."

So she does take it off and then Ryuji totally criticizes her for the type of person that she is (arogent). She already knew she was a bad person. Thats why she invented her mask in the first place.

Ami dislikes her personality just as much as Ryuji does. Thats what makes her such an interesting character IMO