(L) Girls und Panzer

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

What?

If Senshado is a martial art, then it is not just a game, and thus there is a duty to do one's duty as a follower of Senshado. Miho neglected her duty as a commander, and thus failed Senshado in that particular aspect. Saying her saving lives cleared her negligence is basically going against Senshado as a martial art.


@ wontaek:

1. The entire "five Shermans for one Panther" is false. At no time in the war has that ever happened, and the idea was it served as a warning rather than a fact.
2. The Panther itself is mobile, but what of the other tanks? They're not, and having one mobile tank when the rest is not up to the task is more of a liability than asset.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

If Senshado is a martial art, then it is not just a game, and thus there is a duty to do one's duty as a follower of Senshado. Miho neglected her duty as a commander, and thus failed Senshado in that particular aspect. Saying her saving lives cleared her negligence is basically going against Senshado as a martial art.

Senshado = sport = game = fun = nobody's supposed to die = safety is paramount.
I'm not sure what part of this is hard to get.

[Sumeragi]

Senshado = Martial Art =/= Sport


That's where the difference lies.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Wait... looking for a tank inside the ship? How would one even get in there?

I really wonder how people think getting a tank inside a ship like that is difficult. A normal ship sure, but not the type of ship like the Academy Warship that's several orders of magnitudes larger than any other vessel. Since we don't see the arrangement of what appears to be a storage room, the room may be larger than it looks, connected to larger corridors or even a hangar.

Originally Posted by Znail

Ah, but those pictures obviously includes tanks they have or will be fighting rather then tanks they own. The 8 small tank pictures on the other hand are clearly their own tanks. Their is only one more left to be found there, as the team has 7 out of those 8 tanks right now.

The 8 small tank pictures includes tanks like the Sherman, which Oarai clearly doesn't have, and the Tiger H shown on the smaller pics is clearly the brown Tiger shown in Miho's flashbacks and also Maho's tank which belongs to Black Forest. Also, the pic I showed has the StuG III to the top left, which belongs to Oarai. The rest of the image includes a lineart drawing of the Type 89 at the very bottom and of course Ankou Team's Panzer IV.

Originally Posted by Znail

Yes, the left side of the hull, that keeps going to end at a front somewhere behind the wall. But as we don't actually see that front end so is there no way to tell that it's a front mounted turret. Actually, as the turret is at least as far from the front end as the wall so can't it be a front mounted turret like the Tiger (P).

I'll use this from a blog:



Note that if it was the Tiger H, the mudguards would be visibly angled upwards towards the front, and there'd be no round hatch on the side at all.

[Theo]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

If we operate under the idea that Senshado is a martial art, then the idea that this is all just a game is in itself a corruption of what Senshado is. A true martial art puts duty on the same level as honor, and Miho not doing what she should be doing when she was able to do so was neglecting her duty. Shiho might have been extreme in her interpretation (or perhaps that is what the Nishizumi-ryu is like in general), but the basics of what she says is correct: One must advance, and this means one must do one's duty.

Enough of this "honor" wankery. If teammates were put into a life-threatening situation in real martial arts competitions, hell yeah go ahead and save them even while the cameras and everyone's attention is still on the match.

Also enough with the "game" semantics. It's supposed to be a non-lethal competition (as silly as it may look). Once someone's about to die, if you're in a position to help, you HELP.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Theo

Enough of this "honor" wankery.

I disagree, to the point I believe people who trivialize honor probably will never be in the position to understand what honor in martial art is truly like.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

I disagree, to the point I believe people who trivialize honor probably will never be in the position to understand what honor in martial art is truly like.

Looks like it's being a self-important wanker who puts immaterial self-satisfaction ahead of their team mates' lives.

Sure, it's understandable. Selfishness isn't complicated. It's just not particularly admirable.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Senshado = Martial Art =/= Sport

That's where the difference lies.

Actually,

Martial Art = Sport

Have you ever heard of kendo, or judo, or fencing, or wrestling, or boxing?

The only time martial arts isn't a sport is when it's used in combat, which I'm sure we can all agree Senshado isn't.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Looks like it's being a self-important wanker who puts immaterial self-satisfaction ahead of their team mates' lives.

It's not even self-satisfaction since you're never going to get praised for letting your friends die for some silly competition.

[garbage]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

snip.

she was not in the COMMAND TANK she was commanding the FLAG TANK. as i've said not enough info on that situation, so where the hell is Maho? if she's not then what the hell is she doing far away from the action? either way that would be a tactical blunder on her part (at least more than Miho's), certainly not enough to cast blame on anyone, (also command stays with Maho as they do have radio, and no indication that they were cut off)

angles, inclinations & elevations, impassibility would definitely be part of a military map, it's stupid to use just any regular map. in fact in the saunders match they were talking about elevations and such). I'm not from a tank battalion, but from the Rangers, but definitely tank battalions cant have maps any worse than the Rangers use do they?
I agree that not EVERYTHING can be seen in the MAP, as features are always changing. but as i've said before Scouting is the main commanders responsibility, even if there were new things, the fact is the flag tank was there and Maho knows it, any new info could easily be referred to Maho by radio. So Maho definitely gave the OK for that situation, and may even be her command. the sitaution is not plainly Miho & company tring to advance beside a river on a narrow path. you don't even know why they are there, where they are coming from, or what they are trying to accomplish. are they trying to escape?, are they trying to attack? what?

in fact in a three tank unit as they have there, and forced into a single line they were positioned properly. (just like what they did with the PzIV - 38T - STUGIII combi against saunders) with one tank guarding the flag tank in front & one at the back. since they were not sure (and we are not sure) if the enemy could come up from behind. It was mere bad luck that the first shot against the front tank caused it to slide into the river.

and then if you one of the tanks guarding Miho's flag tank leave them to scout ahead then you'd leave the flag open to either the front or the back. Maho should have sent one of the other Tanks for that task, way before Miho got there.

*** an addition to the concern of what Maho's crew were doing after she left, I noticed that their turrent/Gun wasn't even pointing front. I guess they really just froze instead of returning fire. Momo might even have done better at that situation with her Ute! Ute! Ute! attitude LOL
of course she wont hit >.< guess not... she might hit their other tank

oh well enough of this, Maho & Miho both are still cool for me.^^ I think it might even have been as one other poster said, some king of dirty tactic used by Pravda. well we'll find out in the coming episodes

[Sumeragi]

I am still puzzled by what part of "saving lives and doing one's duty are not exclusive to each other" is so hard to understand for most people. The situation was not "win or save lives", it was "at least tell your crew to retreat as you jump out to save your kameradinen". Miho did not do what she could have done as she was getting out, which is why I'm saying she didn't do her duty. If it was only her tank and the drowning one, if communication was cut off, if her tank was surrounded, etc, the I would say Miho did what she could, but the thing is within that match she wasn't in such a situation.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Actually,

Martial Art = Sport

Have you ever heard of kendo, or judo, or fencing, or wrestling, or boxing?

The only time martial arts isn't a sport is when it's used in combat, which I'm sure we can all agree Senshado isn't.

I do not believe that sportifying martial arts means that martial arts are just sports indefinitely. Might sound elitist, but that is how I proceed with my training at all times. It's basically trivializing the philosophy of martial arts, which is the core of what makes a martial arts a martial arts.

[Wild Goose]

Was it a bad judgement call? Yes. Was it the right thing to do? Yes. Could she have done better? Probably, but hindsight is 20-30.

Men - well, girls - are not potatoes, by the way.

Cut Miho some goddamned slack. She's a kid. She's not even 16. And at the end of the day, where the hell is Maho. The priciple of command is that the CO is responsible for any fuckups that happen, and lets the subordinates take the credit for sucess. Except it seems here that Black Forest's sucesses are attributable to Maho, while their loss is all Miho's fault.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

I am still puzzled by what part of "saving lives and doing one's duty are not exclusive to each other" is so hard to understand for most people. The situation was not "win or save lives", it was "at least tell your crew to retreat as you jump out to save your kameradinen". Miho did not do what she could have done as she was getting out, which is why I'm saying she didn't do her duty. If it was only her tank and the drowning one, if communication was cut off, if her tank was surrounded, etc, the I would say Miho did what she could, but the thing is within that match she didn't.

Did you not notice that Miho's tank was in the middle of the single-file formation along that trail? Where would you have had them retreat to? There was another tank behind them, and if piloting one of those things forward through that little viewslot is hard, just try doing precison maneuvers in one while driving backwards... on a collapsing trail which maybe has enough room for one tank to pass another if they're very careful, in the middle of a downpour, while under fire. Even if she'd thought of giving that order, they probably couldn't have carried it out before getting taken out, and they might just have ended up going off the trail themselves.

Personally, I doubt the idea even crossed her mind. And that's good. Because in that situation you shouldn't even be thinking about the match at all. Maybe, maybe she could have given a snap-order that could have saved the flag tank as she jumped out to help the others. But the fact that she didn't shows that she was thinking about exactly what she should have been thinking about in that situation: saving the people drowning. The match stopped mattering as soon as the Panzer III fell into the water. By leaving the match; by not even apparently thinking about the match from the moment she saw the tank fall; Miho was doing exactly the right thing.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

I do not believe that sportifying martial arts means that martial arts are just sports indefinitely. Might sound elitist, but that is how I proceed with my training at all times. It's basically trivializing the philosophy of martial arts, which is the core of what makes a martial arts a martial arts.

Even if you don't consider martial arts a sport so what it is in essence is practice for combat. In a way so does this actually reduce the importance of winning as with a sport so is winning the ultimate goal, but if you see it as combat practice then who wins or not is of minor importance compared with learning and the end result wich would be using it in actual combat. Would you really consider how many points you scored in your combat practice to be more important then the lives of your friends?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by garbage

she was not in the COMMAND TANK she was commanding the FLAG TANK. as i've said not enough info on that situation, so where the hell is Maho? if she's not then what the hell is she doing far away from the action? either way that would be a tactical blunder on her part (at least more than Miho's), certainly not enough to cast blame on anyone, (also command stays with Maho as they do have radio, and no indication that they were cut off)

Miho was the vice-commander, so we can assume that she's supposed to be able to take care of herself.

Originally Posted by garbage

angles, inclinations & elevations, impassibility would definitely be part of a military map, it's stupid to use just any regular map. in fact in the saunders match they were talking about elevations and such).

I doubt that their maps are to military standards since they're not actually in the military.

Originally Posted by garbage

but as i've said before Scouting is the main commanders responsibility, even if there were new things, the fact is the flag tank was there and Maho knows it, any new info could easily be referred to Maho by radio. So Maho definitely gave the OK for that situation, and may even be her command. the sitaution is not plainly Miho & company tring to advance beside a river on a narrow path. you don't even know why they are there, where they are coming from, or what they are trying to accomplish. are they trying to escape?, are they trying to attack? what?

The whys of their advance aren't that important. It's obvious that it could have been executed better. Going that route was risky to begin with, but it's much less so if it was properly scouted. Maho might not have known that because she wasn't there, so Miho should have taken the initiative in her absence.

Originally Posted by garbage

in fact in a three tank unit as they have there, and forced into a single line they were positioned properly. (just like what they did with the PzIV - 38T - STUGIII combi against saunders) with one tank guarding the flag tank in front & one at the back. since they were not sure (and we are not sure) if the enemy could come up from behind. It was mere bad luck that the first shot against the front tank caused it to slide into the river.

How can the tanks be positioned properly when they can't even maneuver?

Originally Posted by garbage

and then if you one of the tanks guarding Miho's flag tank leave them to scout ahead then you'd leave the flag open to either the front or the back. Maho should have sent one of the other Tanks for that task, way before Miho got there.

Exposing a Tiger I to the front isn't a big problem since it has a lot of armor protecting it. It can cover the scouting Pz. III with the big 88 in case someone does spring an ambush. While they were still on the near side of the path, the other Pz. III could look around for pursuers. We can be pretty sure Miho wasn't expecting any because if she was, she'd be unbuttoned and looking to the rear.

Originally Posted by garbage

*** an addition to the concern of what Maho's crew were doing after she left, I noticed that their turrent/Gun wasn't even pointing front. I guess they really just froze instead of returning fire.

They might have been trying to see where Miho ran off to.

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

I do not believe that sportifying martial arts means that martial arts are just sports indefinitely. Might sound elitist, but that is how I proceed with my training at all times. It's basically trivializing the philosophy of martial arts, which is the core of what makes a martial arts a martial arts.

Martial Arts are sports for all intents and purposes when they're used in competitions with rules.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Cut Miho some goddamned slack. She's a kid. She's not even 16. And at the end of the day, where the hell is Maho.

She split her command. The reason why isn't that important, but it probably has to do with protecting the flag tank while the main force tries to take out the Pravda flag tank. As reference, both Saunders and Ooarai split the flag tank away from the rest during their fight.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

The priciple of command is that the CO is responsible for any fuckups that happen, and lets the subordinates take the credit for sucess. Except it seems here that Black Forest's sucesses are attributable to Maho, while their loss is all Miho's fault.

They've won nine years in a row, and Maho could only have been part of the team for two of those years.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Personally, I doubt the idea even crossed her mind. And that's good. Because in that situation you shouldn't even be thinking about the match at all. Maybe, maybe she could have given a snap-order that could have saved the flag tank as she jumped out to help the others. But the fact that she didn't shows that she was thinking about exactly what she should have been thinking about in that situation: saving the people drowning. The match stopped mattering as soon as the Panzer III fell into the water. By leaving the match; by not even apparently thinking about the match from the moment she saw the tank fall; Miho was doing exactly the right thing.

I totally agree. At that point, it was no longer a competition.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Cut Miho some goddamned slack. She's a kid. She's not even 16.

Might be just my life experience, but I don't let age be an excuse. Could be I'm very strict in this particular department

Also, she would have been 16 at the time of the contest: She was in the first year of high school.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

And at the end of the day, where the hell is Maho. The priciple of command is that the CO is responsible for any fuckups that happen, and lets the subordinates take the credit for sucess. Except it seems here that Black Forest's sucesses are attributable to Maho, while their loss is all Miho's fault.

Most likely Maho had her own issues to deal with in the aftermath of defeat. However, assuming that she had the same kind of fingers pointing at her, the difference is that Maho stayed on, while Miho left and basically escaped.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Did you not notice that Miho's tank was in the middle of the single-file formation along that trail? Where would you have had them retreat to? There was another tank behind them, and if piloting one of those things forward through that little viewslot is hard, just try doing precison maneuvers in one while driving backwards... on a collapsing trail which maybe has enough room for one tank to pass another if they're very careful, in the middle of a downpour, while under fire. Even if she'd thought of giving that order, they probably couldn't have carried it out before getting taken out, and they might just have ended up going off the trail themselves.

The tank that was trying to cover the flag right before the shot was fired seems to indicate there was enough room. Of course, it might have been futile, but still an attempt might have changed everything.

Originally Posted by Znail

Would you really consider how many points you scored in your combat practice to be more important then the lives of your friends?

And at what point have we been actually comparing relative importance?

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

The tank that was trying to cover the flag right before the shot was fired seems to indicate there was enough room. Of course, it might have been futile, but still an attempt might have changed everything.

It was maneuvering forwards around an immobile tank, and having a hard time of it. Not backwards around a moving tank.

And at what point have we been actually comparing relative importance?

You seem to have been doing so from the beginning. I'm not sure you realize it, but everything you're saying still comes across as "sports competitions are at least as important, if not more important, than people's lives." You say that you're not saying that, and then when explaining what you mean you just say it again.

Honestly, I think it may be wisest to call this converstaion off. Either one or both of these sides is not getting their point across, and it looks like the more we try to explain ourselves the more we just irritate the other side.

[RedShocktrooper]

Concerning this back and forthing concerning Black Forest, do we know where all of Pravda's tanks were? For all we know, the match was lost beforehand - if not by the IS-2's D-25, then by a T-34's S-51. Were there any Pravda tanks behind Black Forest, as the presence of a Panzer III behind them seems to indicate?

Perhaps Mihou was just scapegoated the whole time for "losing" a match that was essentially a defeat long before then, because Black Forest was too vain to actually admit they'd been defeated?

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

It was maneuvering forwards around an immobile tank, and having a hard time of it. Not backwards around a moving tank.

Just saying, given the chain of command Miho should have said at least something.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

You seem to have been doing so from the beginning. I'm not sure you realize it, but everything you're saying still comes across as "sports competitions are at least as important, if not more important, than people's lives." You say that you're not saying that, and then when explaining what you mean you just say it again.

Well, seems like my point hasn't been put across:

1. I don't see this as just sports, for "sports competitions" is itself something outside my line of logic. To me a martial art is by itself a philosophy to live by.

2. There is no "if not more important". There were two duties: Miho as a commander and as a kameradin. She did what she should as a kameradin, but not as what she should have done as a commander. It's that simple: She did not do her duty for one of her roles.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Honestly, I think it may be wisest to call this converstaion off. Either one or both of these sides is not getting their point across, and it looks like the more we try to explain ourselves the more we just irritate the other side.

If you wish.

[Tyabann]

I just marathoned through this show today and it's really awesome. Hope it stays that way, unlike other things this season that I could mention.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by RedShocktrooper

Concerning this back and forthing concerning Black Forest, do we know where all of Pravda's tanks were? For all we know, the match was lost beforehand - if not by the IS-2's D-25, then by a T-34's S-51. Were there any Pravda tanks behind Black Forest, as the presence of a Panzer III behind them seems to indicate?

Miho didn't seem to think that there were any Pravda tanks behind them. You'd never want to have your most important tank as the rearmost vehicle in a column because that position and the foremost position are the most likely ones to get taken out in an ambush.

Originally Posted by RedShocktrooper

Perhaps Mihou was just scapegoated the whole time for "losing" a match that was essentially a defeat long before then, because Black Forest was too vain to actually admit they'd been defeated?

Only Erika and Miho blame her for the loss. I would assume most of Black Forest's tanks were still active when they lost. Maho doesn't seem to be the sort to let anyone turn her sister into a scapegoat.