[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Will's catchphrase "Don't think too hard about it, you'll get a headache" sounds like very solid advice in this case I'm afraid.

I call meta-shenanigans and maintain that Bernkastel is at least heavily stacking cards to tell the story she wants to tell, whether it has any relation to truth or not.

Yeah, I guess that's how it is.

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

I think the world Will is trapped by Bern is not a proper world but a mixed of both worlds where Leon exists and doesn't exist. That's why Leon and Shanon/Kanon can appear at the same time.

Jessica and Maria knows about the legend of the witch that shouldn't exist in Leon's world as well, and they have a memory of the world that doesn't have Leon.

I think I can sort of roll with this, since I did find Maria and Jessica knowing about Beatrice being really odd, since they shouldn't know about that in Lyon's world.

However, I still don't know if I want to roll on the whole "since Lyon exists and doesn't exist at the same time, s(he) can be see along with ShKanon". If we go by the idea that ShKanon is Yasu's creation, then: If happy world Lyon exists, then ShKanon shouldn't, and if happy world Lyon doesn't exist then Shkanon should. So, if this is a mixture of both worlds, then the person we're looking at should be happy world Lyon and sad world Lyon (i.e. Yasu) at the same time, thus this person shouldn't be able to be seen around ShKanon, no?

I guess I'm just over-thinking it.

[ArcticHelm]

I'm still trying to figure out the Yasu business. :|

[Used Can]

By the way, does anyone believe Asumu and the other Battler are still wild cards?
How did sad world Lyon know about the truth behind that incident?

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

@Rias: don't your spoilers fundamentally prove that

Spoiler for big potential spoiler:

Shannon is Beatrice, though not the main culprit? I'm completely confused in the initial rush of things.

Spoiler for hinted at ep7:

That's pretty much what was hinted in the 2nd half. Especially with her finding the gold, and being recognized by the older servants/Kinzo as Beatrice.

[ArcticHelm]

Spoiler for EP7 Character Inquiry:

I was curious what people think about the Yasu/Rion >> Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice problem? It seems "Beatrice" on the gameboard seems to be the wire-puller for Shannon/Kanon assuming they don't decide to get uppity; however at the same time it seems to be implied that Yasu/Rion is (or was) the wire-puller for all three in the typical Rokkenjima setting.

I'm sort of reminded of the cup/cheese business from 6: In some sense we have Yasu to begin with and they decide to "slice" their soul into three parts Shannon/Beatrice/Kanon. The cheese problem is presented in a way where you'd continue to think of a single person as a single person no-matter what way they tried to present their personality.

However the board seems to imply the soul is 'breakable' in some sense, or at least someone wishes that it is that way. It doesn't work out well though (love duel) and requires Beatrice's magic (through the explosion~>golden land) for you to actually make a hidden cut to say there was actually 3 or more individuals.

This is totally assuming that they are all actually the same person, which I honestly have no idea about at this point even though it seems to be suggested.

[Marion]

Likewise, there's never been anything to foreshadow that she did love Ange or was a particularly excellent mother.

Ange never said Kyrie was a bad mother. She mentioned how Kyrie went along with the situation and took Ange to see Battler, how she planned gifts in advanced for her daughter's birthdays, kept her away from the Sumadera family (excluding her father, who is the only good person seen in that family).

This is my problem with the tea party and Kyrie's comments. We are never led to believe in the past episodes that Kyrie hated Ange, only that she held resentment towards Battler. So this game suddenly turning around and showing that doesn't make sense to me. Rudolf is even more confusing because how he seems to be okay with Kyrie slaughtering people, but in EP 6 he was crying because he thought Kyrie and Battler were dead.

[Kite22]

Well in the Sea of Kakera their maybe a world where Kyrie and Rudolf resent everyone, after all Bern takes the smallest possibility and turns it into a reality for her own amusement. They may only have a 0.00001% chance of happening but that's all she needs.

[Oliver]

Notice that this still requires for Bernkastel to break the starting condition boundaries commonly believed to be imposed on Beatrice's game.

After all, they don't just have to start hating everybody now, they need to have always hated everyone.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Notice that this still requires for Bernkastel to break the starting condition boundaries commonly believed to be imposed on Beatrice's game.

After all, they don't just have to start hating everybody now, they need to have always hated everyone.

Maybe they have always hated everyone, but this motive is suppressed in the other episodes out of fear (that others are dying around them first, or for other reason X). Perhaps Bern's world without love has the conditions needed for their hatred to boil over.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

Maybe they have always hated everyone, but this motive is suppressed in the other episodes out of fear (that others are dying around them first, or for other reason X). Perhaps Bern's world without love has the conditions needed for their hatred to boil over.

To demonstrate Leon, Bern already had to go find a world with a point of divergence 19 years out in the past, which is well outside the boundaries -- we commonly think that Beatrice's games feature worlds identical up to at least 24:00 of the 3rd October 1986, don't we.

If they aren't, well, that changes a bloody lot.

[Disz]

Originally Posted by Oliver

To demonstrate Leon, Bern already had to go find a world with a point of divergence 19 years out in the past, which is well outside the boundaries -- we commonly think that Beatrice's games feature worlds identical up to at least 24:00 of the 3rd October 1986, don't we.

If they aren't, well, that changes a bloody lot.

Bern went back and time and made Kyrie and Rudolf murderers to piss off Ange?

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Oliver

To demonstrate Leon, Bern already had to go find a world with a point of divergence 19 years out in the past, which is well outside the boundaries -- we commonly think that Beatrice's games feature worlds identical up to at least 24:00 of the 3rd October 1986, don't we.

If they aren't, well, that changes a bloody lot.

Come to think of it, who told us that? Wasn't it effectively Bern?

[Kite22]

Yes, after all this is Bern we are talking about and it's something she would do if she got some amusement out of it. Nothing like making a girl think her parents where sick bastards who hated her and her brother and couldn't wait to kill her family and then try and pass it off as the Absolute Truth of what went down on Rokkenjima.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Come to think of it, who told us that? Wasn't it effectively Bern?

I'm not sure, but I expect this isn't relevant.
If the starting conditions are not identical up until a certain observable point in time, the game records cannot be used jointly to solve the mystery, as they refer to worlds which diverge at an unknown point of time in the past, and none of them contains sufficient information to be solved alone. So for it to be solvable we have to assume they diverge no earlier than a certain time that is shown as something other than a flashback - which is early morning of the 4th.

Leon's world very clearly disregards this rule, and even though it is mostly used as a storytelling device, breaking this rule at all casts doubt on the rest of the testimony.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Disz

Bern went back and time and made Kyrie and Rudolf murderers to piss off Ange?

No, she just picked a kakera that diverged years in the past where they have always been likely murderers to piss off Ange and show that her parents can be murderers.

[Arachanox]

Oliver, wasn't it already assumed that EP6 wasn't even a real game (Battler had discovered the truth in EP5), but just Battler giving Erika a chance to redeem herself? If so, then perhaps Bern hasn't "stolen" Beatrice's game board at all, but just created her own version. If so, she has access to create a point of divergence at any point in time...

[Used Can]

I hope R07 keeps Rudolph and Kyrie as the culprits just to leave a sense of irony in the game, since Battler (and technically Ange too, in a certain fashion during 1998) was the detective.

[Disz]

Or George..

[Mikachiru]

Originally Posted by Rias

Spoiler for Yasu/Shannon/Beatrice:

Yasu was introduced to the family after being raised in the orphanage, and was given special privilages from Genji, since Yasu carries the blood of Beatrice (human). Other servants was jealous of that, and bullied Yasu. Yasu seeked comfort from Shannon, but it wasn't enough. Shannon persona might've been there before Yasu went to Rokkenjima, since Yasu describes Shannon as "popular in the orphanage". Regardless, Shannon persona has been there since Yasu got to Rokkenjima, if not earlier.

Eventually Yasu was engaged in magic/legend of Beatrice/mystery novels, and eventually realized that mystery - howdunit = fantasy, and became Beatrice (fantasy-wise). Yasu-Beatrice left, and Shannon persona took over, without the memories of Yasu. Years passed, Shannon fell in love with Battler, whom made a promise to return to get her the year after. However, the year after that, Asumu died, and Battler left the Ushinomiya name.

Shannon waited years after years, hoping for Battler's return, but eventually found out that Battler had forgotten about her. Heartbroken Shannon gave her feelings for Battler to Yasu-Beatrice, and Yasu-Beatrice gave Shannon a new brother: Kanon.

Shannon eventually moved on to have an relationship with George, while Yasu-Beatrice still suffered from loving Battler. After talking to Maria, Yasu-Beatrice realized that more power was needed, and went to solve the epitaph and became the "real" Beatrice. Being able to do that, Yasu was given the title of Beatrice and the as the family head (in secret, since Yasu wanted things to remain the way they were) Yasu eventually met Kinzo, forgave him of his past mistakes, and Kinzo passed away after.

The real reason of the disaster, mainly due to the trigger of the challenge to the family, isn't fully explained in ep7. We know that it has something to do with Battler's sin, of forgetting his "promise", and his return right on the 6th year. The only thing I can kind of speculate is George's proposal at the same timing of Battler's return, which seems to trigger something.

Wait...Are you serious? The Shkannon theory was correct? Or is this just speculation?

Originally Posted by Disz

Or George..

Naw, it couldn't of been the chubby man. Too obvious. XD

[Renall]

We... don't know. As usual. It's not even self-consistent this time. It suggests it, then denies it, then brings it right back up again.