(L) Rakuen Tsuiho (Expelled From Paradise)

[Dr. Dahm]

Originally Posted by Elder

Indeed Ledo and Angela are pretty similar characters.



Most of the characters that follow the route you describe usually end up as massive failures in Urobuchi stories. His heroes are usually the ones who press on despite the limitations of their beliefs and achieve their beliefs.

See I've always found it to be quite the opposite at least in the long run.

[jeroz]

Urobuchi places trials on his characters to make them shine. There will be those who will achieve nirvana, and those that will perish by lingering on with petty desires.

It's not like none of his characters come out to the other side, but we just tend to remember the spectacular flame that engulfed those who didn't.

[Dr. Dahm]

Originally Posted by jeroz

Urobuchi places trials on his characters to make them shine. There will be those who will achieve nirvana, and those that will perish by lingering on with petty desires.

It's not like none of his characters come out to the other side, but we just tend to remember the spectacular flame that engulfed those who didn't.

Again it still feels like it's generally the other way around with him whereas what you speak of is more the traditional outcome for those who struggle in their trials.

[Shadow5YA]

Why do people think Gen Butch suddenly has some fetish for gore and suffering? Do Madoka, Ledo, and Akane's lives mean nothing to you?

His anime scripts are always about emotional salvation. Even Fate/Zero, with its ending set in stone thanks to its nature as a prequel, still has Waver and Rider. It's not like he kills off people for the sake of killing them, you know.

[Kazu-kun]

I don't think it's about killing characters or anything like that. It's more about how Urobuchi seems to have problems writing straightout heroic characters, which is actually something he has admitted. Such characters usually end up failing in his stories. He doesn't do this for the lulz of course. It's just he ends up gravitating towards a more dispassionated and utilitarian approach. For example, Urobuchi is a fan of Equilibrium, but after playing the doujin Visual Novel he did based on that movie, I got the feeling he probably thinks the world in Equilibrium would have a better chance of survival the way it is when the movie starts. At the end of the movie the hero achieves freedom for this world, but Urobuchi probably thinks this freedom would lead the world to destruction. I see themes derived from this kind of thinking in a lot of his works, even in Madoka to same extent.

I haven't seen Gargantia though, so I can't comment on that.

Anyway, this movie seems like a genuine attempt to a more humanistic way of thinking. And I'm glad for him. It would do him no good to become a one trick pony, thematically speaking.

[Dr. Dahm]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I don't think it's about killing characters or anything like that. It's more about how Urobuchi seems to have problems writing straightout heroic characters, which is actually something he has admitted. Such characters usually end up failing in his stories. He doesn't do this for the lulz of course. It's just he ends up gravitation towards a more dispassionated and utilitarian approach. For example, Urobuchi is a fan of Equilibrium, but after playing the doujin Visual Novel he did based on that movie, I got the feeling he probably thinks the world in Equilibrium would have a better chance of survival the way it is when the movie starts. At the end of the movie the hero achieves freedom for this world, but Urobuchi probably thinks this freedom would lead the world to destruction. I see themes derived from this kind of thinking in a lot of his works, even in Madoka to same extent.

I haven't seen Gargantia though, so I can't comment on that.

Anyway, this movie seems like a genuine attempt to a more humanistic way of thinking. And I'm glad for him. It would do him no good to become a one trick pony, thematically speaking.

Yeah it has nothing to do with shock value or killing characters so much as how he writes outcomes for them in general based on their situations and moral compass and me feeling that the world is not as bleak or merciless as he sees it. It'd just make his writing a whole lot less predictable and tiresome in a way for sure if he realized this and self-check some of his more common tendencies in deciding outcomes. Like yeah of course in the real world things don't always work out for those with the best of intentions or altruistic goals and ideals and there's a certain naivete behind believing they will, but the world also doesn't conspire against them and make them fail in ironic ways quite the way that often seems to happen in his stories either.

It always feels in a lot of works like there's some grand point he's trying to make about how nice guys finish last and you're better off just being a dick and finding the quickest way towards achieving your goals regardless of the moral consequences otherwise the universe is going to find someway to snuff you out except it's a stacked argument really because he decides the highly ironic outcomes in the first place and rarely seems to make a convincing argument as to why that bad outcome is appropriate for that character, rather often it's just implied that they deserve it somehow for being naive and believing in the possibility that any sort of struggle they make towards achieving a goal that will benefit others in a positive way could ever be met without some highly ironic twist or sacrifice that puts one right back where they started or worse backfires. Basically he has a way of making characters heroic struggles feel entirely pointless in the end in his most major successful works.

I don't know why he hates traditional heroism and morality so much and sees it as naive and nothing he could ever allow to go unpunished in his stories, but it's kept him from being an author I can celebrate to much since his outlook wildly conflicts with how I see the world as actually working from personal experience and makes me think of him as something of a man child and potential bad influence with bad or empty messages to his fans that really just needs to get out a little more and spend some time around real people before he gets back to writing his stories so that he can see how the world actually is cause write now it kind of feels like he's writing from a bitter shut in otaku's perspective that's battling demons through his work rather than confronting them head on. Maybe that's what he did with this one though, I don't know, supposedly it's something he was working on since before he ever became this major industry figurehead so perhaps that could be a reason for the difference since it feels like now producers are often trying to get him to push a certain angle they feel made him popular like what happened with the kind of awful IMO Madoka Film.

[MeisterBabylon]

If Gen ever wrote something lighter hearted and even a whiff of idealism actually "working" as a permanent solution and not overshadowed by "you win now but you've doomed society as a whole, or you lose everything you ever believed in to save the world"...

...if he ever went against THAT, there would be a logical explanation and a snide remark towards his fans that he didn't want to take the obvious path.

It is because EVERYONE expected him to be a Butcher so he decides not to Butch on one story.

Or rather, in Rakuen Tuiho, I felt he Butchers the rotting status quo and makes it look like some sort of heroism, when you can turn the chessboard around and argue that there is nothing wrong with living in that paradise prison and that the "hero" is wrong for ruining it for everyone else. IE he is STILL using the same MO, just giving you the perspective from the other end.

[Dr. Dahm]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

If Gen ever wrote something lighter hearted and even a whiff of idealism actually "working" as a permanent solution and not overshadowed by "you win now but you've doomed society as a whole, or you lose everything you ever believed in to save the world"...

...if he ever went against THAT, there would be a logical explanation and a snide remark towards his fans that he didn't want to take the obvious path.

It is because EVERYONE expected him to be a Butcher so he decides not to Butch on one story.

Or rather, in Rakuen Tuiho, I felt he Butchers the rotting status quo and makes it look like some sort of heroism, when you can turn the chessboard around and argue that there is nothing wrong with living in that paradise prison and that the "hero" is wrong for ruining it for everyone else. IE he is STILL using the same MO, just giving you the perspective from the other end.

That's not it at all, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the whole butcher meme (IMO it misses the point anyway and is nothing to really be celebrated) so much as a belief that if you're going to be hailed as a standout among your peers be it as an internationally renowned author or something as niche as an anime/eroge screenwriter and your primary offering is cynicism and what looks like lashing out at the status quo of heroism and positive outcomes for characters embodying those ideals then how you offer it better darn well have some real world applicability and resonance beyond just it coming across as cool, edgy and trend bucking within a particular subculture of entertainment otherwise what do you really have to offer that should be so celebrated and put you at the forefront ahead of your peers. To me he has yet to demonstrate why he needs to be held up as a particularly special author because to me it just looks like he's become the spokesperson for some rebellious cynical counterculture movement within said subculture rather than having anything actually relevant or accurate to say about us as a special like a Miyazaki, Tomino, Hosoda, Tanaka, Kishi, Ooshi, Kamiya, Urasawa or Tezuka to name a few examples.

And yeah all I really ask from him is that if he's going to make these ultra cynical story lines and be hailed as a standout writer in the whole anime sphere in a way that I too can acknowledge that he at least not entirely stack the deck against one particular ideology and allow that ideologies side to be heard and given it's due consideration before rejecting it if that is to be the case. That's the real issue I've had with his scripts so far is that they are very one-sided in their approach and always seem to chock heroism, altruism and positive human traits up to some sort of naivete that needs to be punished and that the true natural state of the world is one that rejects such notions which I think is kind of bullshit. The real world is just not that simple.

[MeisterBabylon]

Originally Posted by Dr. Dahm

That's not it at all, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the whole butcher meme (IMO it misses the point anyway and is nothing to really be celebrated) so much as a belief that if you're going to be hailed as a standout among your peers be it as an internationally renowned author or something as niche as an anime/eroge screenwriter and your primary offering is cynicism and what looks like lashing out at the status quo of heroism and positive outcomes for characters embodying those ideals then how you offer it better darn well have some real world applicability and resonance beyond just it coming across as cool, edgy and trend bucking within a particular subculture of entertainment otherwise what do you really have to offer that should be so celebrated and put you at the forefront ahead of your peers. To me he has yet to demonstrate why he needs to be held up as a particularly special author because to me it just looks like he's become the spokesperson for some rebellious cynical counterculture movement within said subculture rather than having anything actually relevant or accurate to say about us as a special like a Miyazaki, Tomino, Hosoda, Tanaka, Kishi, Urasawa or Tezuka to name a few examples.

And yeah all I really ask from him is that if he's going to make these ultra cynical story lines that he at least not entirely stack the deck against one particular ideology and allow that ideologies side to be heard. That's the real issue I've had with his scripts so far is that they are very one-sided in their approach and always seem to chock heroism, altruism and positive human traits up to some sort of naivete and that the true natural state of the world is one that rejects such notions which I think is kind of bullshit. The real world is just not that simple.

I don't know think he's some literary great. Pardon me for sounding cynical (lol), but all literary greats are now dead for at least 50 years. Everyone else hasn't done anything new and groundbreaking enough to be called 'great'.

I just felt that he as you said, stacks the deck in the other direction, and for Rakuen Tsuiho just does it in the reverse direction. He has changed nothing about his MO, just the presentation.

However, I enjoy his storytelling, that's why I like his work. Even though everything was seen before, Rakuen Tsuiho was a lovely story with a lovely heroine. And I like it as such.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

Or rather, in Rakuen Tuiho, I felt he Butchers the rotting status quo and makes it look like some sort of heroism, when you can turn the chessboard around and argue that there is nothing wrong with living in that paradise prison and that the "hero" is wrong for ruining it for everyone else. IE he is STILL using the same MO, just giving you the perspective from the other end.

My Japanese isn't good enough to understand everything, but I don't think letting Frontier Setter go ruined their current (cyber) society. I need subs to be 100% sure though.

[MeisterBabylon]

Letting a known rogue element go instead of eliminating or containing him technically means he remains a threat (and the world is worse for it).

Of course it isn't so simple, but that is again in line with the themes that Urobutcher use.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

Letting a known rogue element go instead of eliminating or containing him technically means he remains a threat (and the world is worse for it).

Of course it isn't so simple, but that is again in line with the themes that Urobutcher use.

I disagree. Every choice has its drawbacks and there's nothing wrong with that, but Urobuchi's problem is that he generally takes things to the extremes, to exemplify a pretty pessimistic world view. That's not the case here. What Angela and Dingo do at the end may have its consequences and drawbacks, but the story doesn't overplay it, and that's what makes the movie a pretty big departure from Urobuchi's usual thematic style.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I don't think it's about killing characters or anything like that. It's more about how Urobuchi seems to have problems writing straightout heroic characters, which is actually something he has admitted. Such characters usually end up failing in his stories. He doesn't do this for the lulz of course. It's just he ends up gravitating towards a more dispassionated and utilitarian approach. For example, Urobuchi is a fan of Equilibrium, but after playing the doujin Visual Novel he did based on that movie, I got the feeling he probably thinks the world in Equilibrium would have a better chance of survival the way it is when the movie starts. At the end of the movie the hero achieves freedom for this world, but Urobuchi probably thinks this freedom would lead the world to destruction. I see themes derived from this kind of thinking in a lot of his works, even in Madoka to same extent.

I haven't seen Gargantia though, so I can't comment on that.

Anyway, this movie seems like a genuine attempt to a more humanistic way of thinking. And I'm glad for him. It would do him no good to become a one trick pony, thematically speaking.

Again, I wouldn't call Madoka dispassionated or utilitarian. Those qualities don't apply to Waver in Fate/Zero, or Akane in Psycho-Pass either.


If anything, the characters who become disillusioned and abandon their ideals to survive end up either failing or become villains themselves. Just look at Kiritsugu, Kogami, and Homura.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Again, I wouldn't call Madoka dispassionated or utilitarian. Those qualities don't apply to Waver in Fate/Zero, or Akane in Psycho-Pass either.

My point stands because none of these characters get their goals accomplished, at least not without some pretty nasty drawbacks. Traditional heroism, on the other hand, lets the hero truly win at end, without "buts," or with minor ones at worst.

This movie, in my opinion, is the closest to traditional heroism Urobuchi's ever gotten. Heck, Angela is even the hot-headed type.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Mind point stands because none of these characters get their goals accomplished, at least not without some pretty nasty drawbacks. Traditional heroism, on the other hand, lets the hero truly win at end, without "buts," or with minor ones at worst.

That doesn't mean he gravitated towards a "dispassionated and utilitarian" approach. The characters that did abandon their ideals suffered just as much, if not more than the characters who held onto them.

In fact, those characters ended up breaking in many cases while the characters who kept their ideals only grew stronger.

That's why I find it strange when people think humanitarian ideals are something new to Urobutchi's anime. They have always been there and supported, even if the tone wasn't as "happy".

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

That doesn't mean he gravitated towards a "dispassionated and utilitarian" approach.

In general, he does.

Spoiler for Psycho-pass and Madoka spoilers:

Just look how Sybil or QB get away with their shit. And even though QB gets his ass kicked by Homura in the Rebellion movie, the story makes it a point that Madoka's world, in which QB was free to do his shit, was better than Homura's, which according to Urobuchi, is doomed to destruction. QB's approach is validated either way.

Although, again, that's not my main point.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

That's why I find it strange when people think humanitarian ideals are something new to Urobutchi's anime. They have always been there and supported, even if the tone wasn't as "happy".

You can't say such ideals have been supported when the characters representing them rarely accomplish their main goals (without major drawbacks).

[jeroz]

Again, those characters are those who are extremely obsessed with their goals. Only those who are able to open their eyes are able to achieve salvation and still obtain what they wanted, just like Madoka and Homura in the end of the series. Even Angela has to have a reconstruction in her way of thinking. Had she remain stubborn it will only be downfall for her. Desire makes the biggest weakness, and that is usually why tragedies are inevitable.

The stuff with Kyubey and Sibyl system is that Urobuchi is able to acknowledge the strength and the flaw of such system instead of straight up antagonising it all the way. You are only putting yourself into a dead end otherwise.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

In general, he does.

Spoiler for Psycho-pass and Madoka spoilers:

Just look how Sybil or QB get away with their shit. And even though QB gets his ass kicked by Homura in the Rebellion movie, the story makes it a point that Madoka's world, in which QB was free to do his shit, was better than Homura's, which according to Urobuchi, is doomed to destruction. QB's approach is validated either way.

Although, again, that's not my main point.

Spoiler for Psycho-Pass and Madoka spoilers:

Kyubey is not inherently evil - he is amoral. This has not been the first time it has been mentioned.

He is Pandora's Box. Madoka could not have performed her miracle without attaining magic through Kyubey.

The representation of corruption and disillusionment is Homura.


In Psycho-Pass, Makishima Shougo already showed that the system is flawed. Not only that, but Sybil failed to obtain his brain for assimilation.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

You can't say such ideals have been supported when the characters representing them rarely accomplish their main goals (without major drawbacks).

If that's your interpretation on what happened, then let's agree to disagree. I certainly don't think Urobuchi's villains got what they wanted.

[Iby]

That's great and all but do you know/remember that this movie was written before the Madoka? (I remember it was somewhere between 2009 and 2011)

[Hiss13]

I just got home after going to see the NYC screening of the movie with a friend and I have to say it was very satisfying. I personally loved watching Angela's journey and I'm really glad that it had a satisfying and relatively happy ending. (I was actually worried that Frontier Setter would be shot down at the end).

Plus, the poster was a nice bonus.