Macross Delta - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Thess]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Your use of past series fails because past series never were conventional wars with human-like races. This is really the first time we have Macross Antagonists who are culturally conventional and have conventional concerns.

I wasn't talking about the antagonists in my spoiler tag. Once you read carefully what I posted, come back and reply me.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

@Thess: Um, I wasn't aware that any Vajra held warcrime tribunals against the humans. Maybe you should pick a better example? Not to mention that Frontier was a separate political entity from Galaxy and was attacked by the Vajra without provocation, so the actual warcrimes were committed by the Vajra.

It was illegal for a NUNS soldier, which Alto was at that point, approve of a genocide of sentient lifeforms: it wasn't just attacking them, he was supporting Leon's plan to exterminate them all and take their planet (that's not a mere aggression act as the Vajra did: that's an actual war crime). Ranka was trying to tell him they had feelings and minds, even proving it with Ai-kun but Alto refused to listen to her, drove her away and decided to follow his own angsty revenge path. What he did wasn't different from how Bogue acts. Bogue lost his entire family (his parents and sisters) seven years ago. We see their memorial tomb this week. They are both teenagers who experienced grief and listen eagerly to a leader who is delivering what they want: an output for their anger. I don't think Alto should be judged either, but I hardly think 15 years old Bogue as someone who commits war crimes.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

As for Sheryl, you might remember that she was arrested for her involvement in the Galaxy plot in the movies (and I was very unhappy about that particular plotline, let me tell you, especially the "harvest Rankas organs" part of it) and then sentenced to death, IIRC (could also have been life-long prison, I'm not home and so cannot check). Her sentence was later commuted because she switched sides and basically saved Frontier.

And was put as a victim of Leon's nefarious schemes rather than rightfully arrested by her actions, released by Alto, Ranka and the other ones. Nobody else spoke about her "crimes" again (she's happily singing with Ranka in the new ending). So yeah, it was handwaved. Nobody ever cared about it because she helped to solve the problem and switched sides. That's mecha to you. Her arc was basically like every "enemy pilot switches sides by the power of love and friendship" only done with a singer.

So, hey, if the Windermerans are brought to justice, sentenced to prison or death and then are freed by Delta because they need them to stop the eeeevil NUN guy and then their sentence is commuted because they saved the galaxy... fine by me! I'm a sucker for a redemption story. But it has to be earned, not just handwaved.

I'm not saying it'll be handwaved, I'm stating there were three obvious pilots who were displeased by the news first: Cassim, Keith and Herman. They are doing their duties as soldiers. While the younger ones who are obviously portrayed as rash and dumb were supporting it. Most of the people gathered there didn't want it and voiced their uncertainty, however, Roid used Heinz as a propaganda face and persuaded them (similarly how Leon was using Ranka and after that Sheryl, IMO, to dupe Frontier citizens). The opening hints that there will be a rift between Keith and Roid because of Heinz (they appear as a 'triangle'). So let's wait and see. Animedia interview, I think, stated that 'triangle' is one of the most important things in the series.

[magnuskn]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

To be honest, though, if Kawamori really were to basically repeat the Frontier movie storyline, only now with a whole faction of Sheryls (who in a combination of all of them maybe, maybe equal her awesomeness), I'd be quite a bit disappointed by him getting repetitive in his storytelling.

[Thess]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

I don't think he is necessarily. But most of Macross storylines have common points, not just the love triangle, mecha and songs.

[magnuskn]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

@Thess: Frontier was in a mutual extermination war with the Vajra. They had nowhere to go but to try and take the Vajra homeworld. Otherwise it would have been lights out for them, since they were constantly hounded by the Vajra and the island ecology was rapidly failing. If it is "kill the relentless aggressor or be exterminated by him", genocide sadly becomes a valid military option, especially since the Vajra are a species which is 100% militarized and have an alien psychology which makes communication almost impossible. That Ranka was trying to tell Alto about them having feelings is really not a factor, since the Vajra were still relentlessly trying to kill Alto and everybody else on Frontier.

Anyway, I'm off to home and then at least can watch the RAW.

[Thess]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by magnuskn

@Thess: Frontier was in a mutual extermination war with the Vajra. They had nowhere to go but to try and take the Vajra homeworld. Otherwise it would have been lights out for them, since they were constantly hounded by the Vajra and the island ecology was rapidly failing. If it is "kill the relentless aggressor or be exterminated by him", genocide sadly becomes a valid military option, especially since the Vajra are a species which is 100% militarized and have an alien psychology which makes communication almost impossible. That Ranka was trying to tell Alto about them having feelings is really not a factor, since the Vajra were still relentlessly trying to kill Alto and everybody else on Frontier.

We've only seen one episode of Windermere POV, this one (which was sorely needed, IMO, made Bogue less of a joke at last ). You need to wait and see how it portrays it next. However, having a supposedly forbidden dimensional bomb dropped into their planet does seem to be a good reason to start kicking out the NUNG who they hold responsible for this out of the cluster. Same organization that is putting a blockage of their economy and lying to their neighbours that they nuked themselves. They had no guarantee they will return and nuke them again when opportunity arises: It's not like they didn't broke their own laws already by the occupation and using forbidden weaponry, in their POV. Do you think any real world country will overlook this if happened to them?

Yes, var is awful, but it was all they got to try fight back in order to live without fear and their anger for what happened. And that was all they got. They were letting it go before Roid brought up "Gramia's will" announcement. The war was over to them but Roid made it bigger.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by azarhal

I somehow doubts that the NUNS dropped a dimensional weapons on their own military base so they could lose the war they had against Windermere and leave the planet along...because that's what happened.

When did they show the NUNs blowing up their own base on Windermere?? I thought we didn't know what they targeted....did I miss something?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

When did they show the NUNs blowing up their own base on Windermere?? I thought we didn't know what they targeted....did I miss something?

They didn't. There were forces stationed in the city that got blow up, but so were forces on the Ragna area that Evil NUNS Guy blew up in episode 13 before he left the planet satisfied with the results. They have precedent for blowing up civilians and their people and 'losing' a battle, leaving after collecting information. Then they can easily spin the blame on Windermere and "punish" them with an embargo. As if a bomb wasn't enough to piss them off.

It's like they want them to go to an aggression war because they hounded them (like kicking a dog when it's down). You know what I believe? That this corrupted NUNS branch of the zone, with maybe Roid or Epsilon. Or these are separate players, like Macross Zero, Anti and UN -now NUN- forces are tug battling for Protoculture Ruins Powers and native folks are caught up in their chess board. They are just making the Windermere mad to get them out their little snow planet and test that Fold Network Protoculture ruins. For that, they'll need to take the cluster and have a reason to try them on a big scale. Just saying. Once they are done, they'll come in and crush their small forces, take their wind singer and assume control.

Just my speculation. I could be wrong.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Maybe I need to repeat this again: Warcrimes you comitted don't magically go away because you were duped into them.

The point is who started the first crime. And Mind control has nothing to do with mind rape. Rape is always with sexual contact and since none of the windermere penetrates any free will in sexual term it is not a rape. domination and abuse yes. but not rape.

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by magnuskn

@Thess: Frontier was in a mutual extermination war with the Vajra. They had nowhere to go but to try and take the Vajra homeworld. Otherwise it would have been lights out for them, since they were constantly hounded by the Vajra and the island ecology was rapidly failing.

Frontier was never in danger until all of a sudden, a lot vajra were brought and breed within island frontier. before that they had all the way they could go. That they went to the Vajra homeworld was all plotted by Leon and Frontier. And for what? Fold Quarz.

[Urei]

What kind of effect does this Dimension Bomb even have? Was it explained?

From what I can understand it somehow deteriorates Wind home planet. Isn't that a very ineffective way to deal with your enemy? If you want to drop a bomb onto something you do it with an intention to either kill the enemy or make them lose motivation to fight.

Applying 'poison effect' onto your enemy and watching it from distance all the while the enemy somehow decides not to fight anymore (at least for some time) is kinda stupid. You don't have any options to negotiate with victims of your attack, you can't have them accept truce while poisoned and dying, all you can expect is retaliation from an almost dead enemy since it has nothing left to lose.

If NUNs dropped that bomb it was either a test of new weaponry or a sadistic way to use force at your disposal, simply because you can.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

When did they show the NUNs blowing up their own base on Windermere?? I thought we didn't know what they targeted....did I miss something?

Roid showed a video of VF-22 dropping the dimensional weapon that destroyed Carlisle in this episode and claims NUNS did it.

Turns out there was a NUNS base (and civilians) in Carlisle and the town destruction is was caused NUNS to withdraw from Windermere and call a ceasefire. See the "The Black Storm of Carlisle" glossary entry on the official website...

[Thess]

Originally Posted by azarhal

Roid showed a video of VF-22 dropping the dimensional weapon that destroyed Carlisle in this episode and claims NUNS did it.

Which Walkure identified as belonging to the NUNS.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Thess

Which Walkure identified as belonging to the NUNS.

How does pretty painting on a plane change that the event is what caused NUN to withdraw from Windermere and call for a ceasefire?

Give me a good reason why NUN would blow up a military base and civilians (millions died) just to withdraw from Windermere and call a cease fire right after.

You can forget about "Windermere Protoculture ruins" experimentation, they aren't near Carlisle.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by azarhal

How does pretty painting on a plane change that the event is what caused NUN to withdraw from Windermere and call for a ceasefire?

Scroll up to my previous posts.

[magnuskn]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by Thess

We've only seen one episode of Windermere POV, this one (which was sorely needed, IMO, made Bogue less of a joke at last ). You need to wait and see how it portrays it next. However, having a supposedly forbidden dimensional bomb dropped into their planet does seem to be a good reason to start kicking out the NUNG who they hold responsible for this out of the cluster.

Out of their own star system, yes. Out of the same star cluster... we are talking about inhabited star systems who did expressly not want race-bigoted teenagers conquering them and enslaving parts of their populace.

Originally Posted by Thess

Same organization that is putting a blockage of their economy and lying to their neighbours that they nuked themselves. They had no guarantee they will return and nuke them again when opportunity arises: It's not like they didn't broke their own laws already by the occupation and using forbidden weaponry, in their POV. Do you think any real world country will overlook this if happened to them?

Actually, yes. Quite a lot will do that. But, realism about military power and politics aside, even if North Korea were to suddenly invent mind-control technology, would you think that they are suddenly right in conquering all surrounding countries and enslaving their populace?

Originally Posted by Thess

Yes, var is awful, but it was all they got to try fight back in order to live without fear and their anger for what happened. And that was all they got. They were letting it go before Roid brought up "Gramia's will" announcement. The war was over to them but Roid made it bigger.

So, yeah, according to you now they were going to keep the surrounding worlds and their now-not-free-anymore populaces occupied. That alone is why I despise this faction of self-obsessed lunatics.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

The point is who started the first crime. And Mind control has nothing to do with mind rape. Rape is always with sexual contact and since none of the windermere penetrates any free will in sexual term it is not a rape. domination and abuse yes. but not rape.

Since mind-control is not a real thing in the world (yet ), we have to rely on works of fiction to work out to what it would actually entail. While maybe rape is the wrong terminology, long-term mind-control definitely works out to being akin to slavery. So, congrats, the Windermerans may not be mind-rapists (although that is still debatable), but they definitely are mind-slavers.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Frontier was never in danger until all of a sudden, a lot vajra were brought and breed within island frontier. before that they had all the way they could go. That they went to the Vajra homeworld was all plotted by Leon and Frontier. And for what? Fold Quarz.

Erm, no. They were forced to fastly find an habitable world because of the rapid failing of Island 1 and chose to go and try to take the Vajra homeworld. Now, I am not saying that this was a good thing (it definitely wasn't), but since they were in a war of extermination with the Vajra at that point, it wasn't a war crime per se. The thing which muddies the water is that they mentioned the option that they could call in NUNS and try to evacuate their fleet, but since Leon was president at that time, his new authority swayed them to take the more dangerous route. Their actions were not portrayed as good, though, quite obviously so.

The situation was not comparable in any case. Their command structure was convinced that the Vajra were only semi-mindless hivemind. The only person who really knew that the Vajra were sentient was Ranka (and even at that, she wasn't quite so sure, as can be seen when she and Brera went to the Vajra homeworld). Alto can't really be blamed for not believing her words when at the time she had a breakdown or two already and, oh yeah, was betraying Frontier for the Vajra!!!

*edit* Sheesh, nobody has even mentioned the OP so far. Which is... pretty bad. Lots of repeated scenes from before in the show and the song is not as catchy as I'd like.

[Urei]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

*edit* Sheesh, nobody has even mentioned the OP so far. Which is... pretty bad. Lots of repeated scenes from before in the show and the song is not as catchy as I'd like.

True that, it's a bit of a downgrade from the last one. Not that I was a fan of the previous one.

[Father Hentai]

Is it just me or does anybody also see that the Sigur Valans look like an evil skull helmet?

Originally Posted by azarhal

How does pretty painting on a plane change that the event is what caused NUN to withdraw from Windermere and call for a ceasefire?

Give me a good reason why NUN would blow up a military base and civilians (millions died) just to withdraw from Windermere and call a cease fire right after.

You can forget about "Windermere Protoculture ruins" experimentation, they aren't near Carlisle.

It's not only the painting but also the shown IFF ID Number. Why a bomb has been dropped may be revealed in the next episodes?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by magnuskn

So, yeah, according to you now they were going to keep the surrounding worlds and their now-not-free-anymore populaces occupied. That alone is why I despise this faction of self-obsessed lunatics.

That's really why I never once believed that Windermere would get a slap on the wrist in this show. It is simply impossible to claim they would get to keep the PLANETS, complete with independent peoples, at the end of this TV series. And if they don't get to keep them, the people who were enslaved WILL want revenge.

To let Windermere keep their conquests is akin to say Imperial Japan gets to keep China. This isn't going to happen.

The only scenario where Windermere would be spared a massive tribunal, is if their home planet literally implodes due to excess use of the ruins. I don't think they would go that far though, so standard racial hatred and revenge killings will have to do.

[Mistyclear]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's really why I never once believed that Windermere would get a slap on the wrist in this show. It is simply impossible to claim they would get to keep the PLANETS, complete with independent peoples, at the end of this TV series. And if they don't get to keep them, the people who were enslaved WILL want revenge.

To let Windermere keep their conquests is akin to say Imperial Japan gets to keep China. This isn't going to happen.

The only scenario where Windermere would be spared a massive tribunal, is if their home planet literally implodes due to excess use of the ruins. I don't think they would go that far though, so standard racial hatred and revenge killings will have to do.

Did anyone say they would be able to keep the cluster under their control???

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Spoiler for Comparison to Macross Frontier:

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

Did anyone say they would be able to keep the cluster under their control???

Did anyone say the clusters who would be freed, entire plants filled with angry pople who lost familiy members and some even made to kill their own, would not want revenge?

Do you think it is so simple as "giving the planets back"? We are talking about multiple planets with combined populations bigger than the entire population of Windermere home world. And they are right next door. What do you think these peoples would demand from their former invaders? How many would want vengeance?

[xeviouses]

Well, its NUNS they could do anything.

Spoiler:

That VF-22 pilot...Hayate's dad perhaps? But as noted above the '22 was already spread out to civvies.