Macross Frontier (Macross 25) general discussion [No Spoilers]

[Renaissance Otaku]

The Alto/Brera thing does seem plausible given the sheer amount of focus on their rivalry as Ranka's protector. It does seem like the remnants of a triangle idea.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by raile

^ Sigh, and you went through such efforts.

I had a blast at the time I was doing them, so it wasn´t a total waste... but the aftermath is pretty painful. Kinda like a drinking binge.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I had a blast at the time I was doing them, so it wasn´t a total waste... but the aftermath is pretty painful. Kinda like a drinking binge.

I can understand how you feel. However, I have a possible resolution to your troubles...

I heard that in a particular southern province that borders a particular southern country... there is a special month dedicated to public drunkenness and other insane activities where one can easily forget about anything negative that had transpired in the previous months. Its probably the only time you will appreciate their existence.

And if my calculations are correct, that special occasion is coming up in 4 months.

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga

Wait a minute, magnuskn, I'm not too sure on the Sheryl was supposed to be a big sister part. I know though the part where she was not supposed to have large role comes from stray's translation helped with cheesie and I notice it was from... Famitsu? He seems to also translate it from Macross Generations too... So... Sweatdrop? Perhaps uhhh... Yot-chan may give light to this?

However, as for the triangle between AltoxRankaxBrera in the initial planning, it seems it was genuine, since it comes from Presepe's interview with Kawamori as the source (on the Character part-the comment on Brera's character: "ランカを中心としたアルトとブレラの三角関係の一人"). However this doesn't have the excerpt that Sheryl was supposed to be a big sister as far as my fast reading on Sheryl's "Kawamori comments" nor the interview with Kawamori go. Or I might miss that one info. Or that my brain tells me that it's only implied. Blergh.

(From my short (... Or not, since I have been following Presepe from quite long time it seems) experience with Presepe, they do contain genuine information as far as "Next Episode" info goes, and they do have informations from a lot of studio themselves)

... Bah. I know I should have gone MIA already. But har har, things happen and I don't want to rip my hair 'till I get bald. Damn it. :E

But doesn't "ランカを中心としたアルトとブレラの三角関係の一人" just mean that Alto/Ranka/Brera is ANOTHER triangle? I don't see anything on that page indicating it was an original idea that got scrapped.

Now I did see something else (here, I think) that in Japanese said that Sheryl was going to be a big-sister type of character, but the English translation here changed it to "big sister for Ranka," although Ranka wasn't mentioned in the Japanese. But of course, I can't find that post now.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Y'know, if the lasting legacy of Shalooms fan-fiction is that we can´t ever be sure what part of our information is genuine and what is not, I am going to be even more pissed.

It'll shake itself out. As time goes on, more and more books will be published in Japan, more and more of the information will be translated, and all of Shaloom's nonsense will be water under the bridge. It'll take a bit of time, though.

[cheesie]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Matte...you have a beard?...

Of course, I'm the captain. *slaps Sir Dex with her glorious beard*

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Now I did see something else (here, I think) that in Japanese said that Sheryl was going to be a big-sister type of character, but the English translation here changed it to "big sister for Ranka," although Ranka wasn't mentioned in the Japanese. But of course, I can't find that post now.

Were you referring to this remark?

Kawamori: I liked Sheryl. That´s to say, at the beginning we looked for a "strong and combative" character. Later I got the idea to make her an older sister to Ranka. But I discovered something incredible: Her strength and her fragility gave us a beautiful opportunity to make a delicious mixture. At the beginning we improvised and then looking at the woman we got, I called upon someone to make that mixture. At the beginning I hated her, although I recognize that she has a very pretty face. Nonetheless, I was wrong and we corrected those steps. Her dialogue voice and her musical voice, Aya Endo and May'n, transformed into a unique voice and defined her. Thanks to both of them, the balance of those two voices sounded very good to me. At the end I was fascinated by her and she made me smile. And we then decided to show the viewers her form of fighting spirit!. (Cheesie: Sorry, couldn't resist.)

It was a snippet translated from the interviews found on Macross Generation last October. Again, names of posters involved are excluded for privacy.

[Natsuki Hyuga]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

But doesn't "ランカを中心としたアルトとブレラの三角関係の一人" just mean that Alto/Ranka/Brera is ANOTHER triangle? I don't see anything on that page indicating it was an original idea that got scrapped.

Now I did see something else (here, I think) that in Japanese said that Sheryl was going to be a big-sister type of character, but the English translation here changed it to "big sister for Ranka," although Ranka wasn't mentioned in the Japanese. But of course, I can't find that post now.

I'm not really too sure about the "idea that got scrapped/initial planning" reference (since I only remember Presepe, at that moment, for the AltoxRankaxBrera triangle. And I was not checking it twice, seeing I only remember the pivotal parts only Blame me for already forgetting the total details in 6 months D: ), but I remember someone else mentioned it before... I need some more time to remember that accurately though and search the statements. It doesn't come from MG though :/ That is if I don't go MIA since I am REALLY holding out not to rip all of my hair off at this moment... asdfghjkl!@#$%^&*() at annoying kanjis!

EDIT: ... Or not. Someone is out for my blood if I don't quench her thirst for her new obsession now. D: I... Trust the other can remember the exact quote? D: (Since you know... I certainly don't want to have a "Nice Boat" sort of end Why do I choose those kind of friends again...? Oh right, because I am a fool.)

And cheesie has provided the possible snippets. Although if you see it in Japanese, why do I feel that this is not the right one...? D:

(And cheesie... Just admit it that you are an old man in disguise of a yaoi fangirl! See, Yot-chan, take the advice to leave the ship early-she can make your head buuuuurns ;_; *Squawk-message from the now bald, formerly bullied tortured fangirl-Squawk*)

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tak

I can understand how you feel. However, I have a possible resolution to your troubles...

I heard that in a particular southern province that borders a particular southern country... there is a special month dedicated to public drunkenness and other insane activities where one can easily forget about anything negative that had transpired in the previous months. Its probably the only time you will appreciate their existence.

And if my calculations are correct, that special occasion is coming up in 4 months.

- Tak

Tak, I got drunk exactly *one* time in my life... on Tequila to boot. So I was just citing from that experience. And beer smells and tastes terrible.

[BetoJR]

You can always go the whiskey route. After all, that's what real men drink.

Except me. I don't drink anymore, either. A slight alcoholism scare, nothing major.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

You can always go the whiskey route. After all, that's what real men drink.

Except me. I don't drink anymore, either. A slight alcoholism scare, nothing major.

I´d rather not drink at all. I hate the taste of alcohol.

[BetoJR]

I love whiskey, myself. Too bad I cannot drink it.

[Tak]

So we three have something in common, we all got drunk before and now don't want to ever drink again...

Oh, and kids, that particular German holiday in October is not embraced by all Germans. In fact, one can safely say its celebrated by a minority.

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tak

So we three have something in common, we all got drunk before and now don't want to ever drink again...

- Tak

Always good to know that I have something in common with the people I really like.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

You can always go the whiskey route. After all, that's what real men drink.

Except me. I don't drink anymore, either. A slight alcoholism scare, nothing major.

There are only two weeks in a year where I allow myself to drink alcohol "in Maßen". And that's during the Octoberfest. Well I just do it that all Girls and Ladies look equal in their Dirndl...

Regarding the stuff Sheryl = Rankas bigger Sister. Didn't we had a discussion about this in here somewhere too? I remember something like that mentioned earlier of our bigger discussions.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by cheesie

Of course, I'm the captain. *slaps Sir Dex with her glorious beard*



Were you referring to this remark?



It was a snippet translated from the interviews found on Macross Generation last October. Again, names of posters involved are excluded for privacy.

That's the one! Thanks, Cheesie!

Back on topic, I love whisky. And if you mix it with Reed's Ginger Ale, it's really wonderful.

[BetoJR]

This. No. Just. No.

Master distillers spend years, even decades, taking as much as upwards of 90% of the water out of the blend and you go around mixing other stuff in? No. To me, whiskey should be drank bare. I find even ice to be wrong.

Of course, I don't even drink it anymore, but the memories are all still there, what can I say?

[cheesie]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

That's the one! Thanks, Cheesie!

Well, needless to say, there's a mix of genuine and fabricated information in the transcripts, but based on the overall interview, I'd say it may be based on this article here:

Spanish to English Translation

Q: We were very preoccupied with the development and conclusion of the triangle.

A: You know, it is the eternal debate for a triangle. So I looked for it. For one part you had two person with a profound intimacy, for the other there wasn´t a solid sensation

Before the Sheryl-sister comment, it talks about a couple having more intimacy as opposed to the other. I think there's something written in that article about that.

The only drink I could take is Bailey.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by cheesie

Well, needless to say, there's a mix of genuine and fabricated information in the transcripts, but based on the overall interview, I'd say it may be based on this article here:



Before the Sheryl-sister comment, it talks about a couple having more intimacy as opposed to the other. I think there's something written in that article about that.

The only drink I could take is Bailey.

Funny. I started writing up something about that, but you beat me to it.

Yeah, some of that article in in the "translation," but some of it is not.

I'd say all information we have about the creation of Frontier is rather suspect, unfortunately.

At to Beto: If it were, say, Johnny Walker Blue, OF COURSE I'd drink. But it's Jack Daniels...and hell, if whisky (actually scotch) and ginger ale was good enough for F. Scott Fitzgerald, it's good enough for me!

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Funny. I started writing up something about that, but you beat me to it.

Yeah, some of that article in in the "translation," but some of it is not.

I'd say all information we have about the creation of Frontier is rather suspect, unfortunately.

At to Beto: If it were, say, Johnny Walker Blue, OF COURSE I'd drink. But it's Jack Daniels...and hell, if whisky (actually scotch) and ginger ale was good enough for F. Scott Fitzgerald, it's good enough for me!

Hand me some Black Label and I'll be good My favorite though, would have to be Grey Goose

[Renaissance Otaku]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I´d rather not drink at all. I hate the taste of alcohol.

Something we have in common. Though certain things are starting the grow on me. Nigori sake isn't bad. Chocolate liquors are good too now and then. Though my favorite liqueur is Katsumi. ^_^

The funny thing is, why I don't really drink it, I love cooking with it.

[Yot-chan]

Because it was requested...here's the essay called "The Ohnogi Question" which I wrote for MacrossWorld. I've kept the links in just for reference, not for assigning any kind of blame. There is only one person who should be raked across the coals for this, and it isn't anyone who translated this stuff into English.

I've been trying to think of ways to keep this from falling into the "too long/didn't read" abyss, but I really can't find any way around it. Breaking it up into separate segments seems to be the best way to do it, but that doesn't change the fact that the whole thing is huge.

Anyway, the "whole thing" is still a work in progress, which is another good reason to post it piecemeal...criticism of one part can be addressed in the next part, and so on.

I was hoping I'd get a lot of rebuttals against my findings (or, more accurately, non-findings), but I kinda doubt that will happen. When I first started hinting at this stuff, a number of people dismissed it. Once I let people in on the whole tale, they seem to readily agree (with one exception, who I talked with over PM, and who came up with "answers" to my arguments, like "Maybe Shaloom never said it was a radio show," and then told me that everything I said could be easily rebutted. I wonder if he'll find the WHOLE story so easy to answer...?).

So yes. Five parts to this essay, including an introduction and a conclusion. Part Three and the Conclusion haven't been written yet, due to the fact that I'm still waiting to see a real scan of the Famitsu Magazine interview...which I believe is the deciding factor here.

A disclaimer: it is quite possible that I'm wrong, and I'm ready for that. If that's the case, I'll admit my mistake, apologize to the people involved, and I hope everyone will let me move on. But although I have no 100% conclusive proof yet, I'm sure enough that I'm not wrong to go ahead and start spilling the beans, or opening the can of worms, or whatever you want to call it.

So enjoy my frustration!

Whether or not to conclude it [the love triangle] was quite a last-minute decision, actually. Like, looking at the final scene, inside everyone...I don't have clear words for it, but..."which will win, who will stick together?" It shouldn't become that kind of attitude. "It might not have to be like that," was the feeling I got.
Every member of the staff spoke out about it, but for a quiet and unsociable person like Alto to act naturally, he should love the sky more than girls, right? So, you can't force a decision, you have to let the other people choose their own path.
"Won't the fans be angry about it?"
"Yeah. But, well, that's okay. I'm prepared for that."
That was the kind of conversations I had. Afterwards, when everyone had given different feedback, finally Kawamori-san got a little upset. At least, he looked worried about it.

- Hiroyuki Yoshino, Frontier's Scriptwriter and Series Planner
from Macross F Official Fan Book

The finale will be impressive, because the very director Kawamori wrote the script. We will begin to see it on the screen as soon as the Valkyries take off. You will also see that it will try to make true different dreams he has. You will see.

- "Hiroshi Ohnogi," scriptwriter
from an undocumented radio show

*

I think Yoshino had a lot of fun abusing Sheryl.

- Shoji Kawamori, Chief Director
from the Commentary for Episode 18, in 2059: Memories

Kawamori told me that episode 18 would be completely done with my script.

- "Hiroshi Ohnogi," scriptwriter
from an undocumented radio show

Introduction
The question of whether Hiroshi Ohnogi (a writer who planned out the post-SWI episodes of SDFM, and wrote a number of episodes for the show, as well as being a writer for Orguss, Zeta Gundam, the Area 88 TV Series, Macross Zero, and, weirdly, a Doraemon movie) worked on Macross Frontier is a strange one, considering that it essentially came out of nowhere and was not seriously questioned by anyone until much later.

The initial news was innocuous enough, with a post from the Spanish-language Macross Generation forums, showing a portion of an interview with Kawamori from Famitsu Weekly Magazine, issue #1035. From Macross Generation, it was translated into English and posted at the whatboutmystar live journal (http://community.livejournal.com/wha...?thread=277931). Note specifically the comments for episode 5 (and connecting to episode 18), episode 14, and episodes 21 and 22:

Shoji Kawamori's Famitsu Interview
This is an interview of Shoji Kawamori by Famitsu about his thoughts on the different episodes of MF. 



Notes: 
-Famitsu is one of the most popular video games magazine in Japan, published weekly.

-Hiroshi Ohnogi is a Japanese screenwriter/novelist focusing on anime productions. His works include Gundam, SDF Macross, Macross Zero, RahXephon and Eureka 7

-Haruhiko Mikimoto - manga-ka (Ohnogi attended Keio University in the same years as Mikimoto and Kawamori)

Credits:
-Interview translation: stray (AS, #macrossuki@rizon.irc.net)

-Notes info: Dash_Hunter (AS)



Episode 1 : Kawamori is finally be able to see the culmination of 3 years of work.



Kawamori on Episode 2: "I always dreamed that Minmay would have an older sister and I felt exactly that when we designed the mini duet of Ranka and Sheryl at the observatory."



Kawamori on Episode 4: "This was a debt to Mikimoto, who forgave me for Minmay winning her pageant. Not only him, but Matsuda Seiko (Mikimoto's inspiration for creating Minmay) never won anything as an unknown. As I was writing the script, I thought to prove that Mikimoto would have been right."



Kawamori on Episode 5: "This episode was written to definitively establish Sheryl as Ranka's big sister, but when we finished the script we discovered a new character through her qualities as a woman. This was our most edited script, and I still wasn't convinced this was an important character for Frontier. But Risa Ebata convinced me to give the changes a chance, and when I saw the fan response, I didn't give credit. Hours later we were in a conference with Big West to send a list of changes for episode 6 to our secondary studio."



Connecting to Episode 18 : Though the script has been changed as early as Episode 5 to work Sheryl's character into the story, expanding Sheryl's storyline is another matter, as Kawamori isn't sure which direction Sheryl should take, so Ohnogi asked to leave everything into his hands; he was given free reign over Episode 18+ onwards as Kawamori watched. Here, this is where Sheryl's character is "remade" and polished in Episode 22.



Episode 7: This episode was a gift to the mecha fans. Completely dedicated to them.



Episode 10 : In the second half, Kawamori's cameo [the director] was unplanned. However, it [Ranka's fame] ended up being counterproductive, as Ranka in future episodes demanded much, so Kawamori believes her fame doesn't bring her good fortune. (The phrasing was vague in some parts, but this is the best I could do.)



Kawamori on Episode 12 : "I only made this episode to make people angry, and from there, the kira. Someone who arrives to a battle singing nowadays isn't as crazy as in the time of Macross 7." (stray: "I think the gist of 12 is that he wanted to go from raaaage... to.... kira!")



Kawamori on Episode 14 : "Here I wanted to pay homage to the work of a great friend (Ohnogi)."



Episode 16 : Another idea of Mikimoto's. To show how a romantic idea (singing) under the perspective of whatever government lose it's romantic meaning to become an instrument of war.



Kawamori on Episode 17 : He's teasing fans who didn't get the pineapple salad concept; it's not fatal for Skull Leaders, just womanizers. That Roy was Skull Leader and a womanizer was just a coincidence.



Kawamori on Episode 20 : "This was the most difficult episode I've had to direct in my career. I read in diverse forums that people were sad. The staff was the same way. But we were able to express exactly what we intended: the desperation."



Kawamori on Episode 21 : "This was the end of a cycle full of trying different things. The innocent version of Ranka Lee was different from the message we were trying to convey. Ohnogi then sent her on a voyage of self discovery. It was hard for us, and for her."



Kawamori on Episode 22 : "Humility is the word. Ohnogi stopped here to polish sheryl. This episode is full of tests of humility."



Episode 23 : Family, the simple life. Dreams and actions. A good episode to show the real motivations of the main characters.



Kawamori on Episode 24 : "The last frontier of the heart is yourself. The fans loved the scenes of Alto and Sheryl, and I must say, so did I! They look great on screen. (laughs)"



Episode 25 was Kawamori's dream made reality.



Q1: How would you define frontier with respect to your previous work?


Kawamori : "While Macross plus is a history where conflict arises in profound mental and physical trauma, adding emotional problems, in Frontier I wanted to express the type of conflict that could occur if it is not possible to understand suitably. To continue, Frontier is an example of the tragedies that can occur when [one] could not understand someone, by the fault of lacking a suitable language."



Kawamori on Macross Frontier Movie : The Macross Frontier movie will follow the guideline of "Do You Remember Love, I'd like for all to see Frontier on the big screen, with great sound."

Here it was made clear that Ohnogi was a pivotal figure for Frontier in general and Sheryl in particular.

The episode 14 note is rather puzzling, but was extensively elaborated on later. But more about that later.

It's worth pointing out that some of this IS verifiably accurate. For example, there is a scan going around of the Famitsu interview, unfortunately incomplete, but "Q1" and Kawamori's answer are taken verbatim from it. It's easily possible that a lot of the "interview" here is taken from Kawamori's actual words. However, the rest of the article, while too small in the scan to actually read, is clearly in standard interview format, with no episode commentary, unless the comments are worked into the text.

I should note at this point that the documentation for Ohnogi's involvement is sparse. Essentially, it comes down to two sources:
1. The Kawamori Interview from Famistu #1035, found (but not scanned) and translated into Spanish by Shaloom of Macross Generation.
2. Radio Interviews, transcribed (but not recorded) and translated into Spanish by Shaloom of Macross Generation.
Additionally, there are references to several "novels" about Macross by Ohnogi. These are documented only by Shaloom of Macross Generation.