[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[k//eternal]

I imagine if Beato is real AND is the culprit, just saying "hah, I could do this without your magic" isn't gong to help too much.

Again, I'm convinced that of the two Beatrices in Ep. 2, exactly one is real.

[Turtleen]

I was thinking more like, that she's the culprit only until someone (like Eva) finds the gold and starts to carry on the murders.

Not sure if this has been brought up but, I've been told just a little while ago that the alcohol Kinzo drinks causes hallucination, or at least, there is an alcohol coloured green that causes hallucination. I'd known of it before but never connected it to the one Kinzo drinks.
Here's the wiki article on it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absinthe
If it's been specified as being green and Kinzo drinking it regularily, I think it's pretty safe to say that absinthe is going to play a part in the answer arcs. Of course Umineko isn't going to mirror Higurashi or anything, but hallucinations played a huge part in Higurashi so it's possible there might be that theme again.

[nagare]

I apologize for being late on this. Just got caught up with various things at work.
Here's the rest of the name break down to the best of my ability:

Previous break down of the Japanese names
Previous break down of the romanized names


南條　輝正 - "southern law" "bright & certain"

南 - South

條 - Article (as in a law/documentation article), streak/beam (as in a beam of light, a streak of smoke).
* 條 is pretty much the same as the kanji 条 in reading and meaning.
條 is usually used in names where as 条 is more common in actual words.
I'm not sure, but I believe that 条 is just the more modern version of 條
There might be slight differences, but I'm not sure. I've never
seen 條 use in any other contents.

輝 - shine, twinkle, sparkle, brilliant, radiant

正 - certain, just, correct/right/proper, could be use a tally (there are 5 strokes in this kanji image here)

呂ノ上 源次 - "above ryo" "next origin"

呂 - read as ろ or りょ and usually just used to place a kanji for those reading (eg 風呂) without any deep meaning.

By itself... I'm not really sure. IIRC there is a musical connotation for this kanji. I'm not familiar enough with music to comment on this... IIRC it is a low note (like "do re mi" kinda note), but again, I'm not familiar enough with the kanji with this usage.

ノ -This isn't a kanji. It's the カタカナ (katakana) version of の. Like 呂 above, in particular to names (any type of name) it's used to change の into an acceptable kanji-like form. Usually の means "of"


上 - up, first volume of a book (usually for two part or three part stories), upper division, raise, done

*呂ノ上 is read as ろのうえ. In the game they allude this name to the demon Ronove.

*呂ノ上 could mean above the ryo musical note... or 呂 could be (most likely actually) be pointing to a place, city, or type of profession. To me when I see 呂 I think of 風呂 (bath). Maybe 呂ノ上 family owned a public bath house in a distant past? - Mostly likely completely unrelated to the mystery. Another possibility is this is a fake name/alias.

源 - source, origin

次 - next
*used in a given name, it's likely that the person has an older brother

紗音 - Silky sound

紗 -gauze
*Although this kanji does have the connotation of silk

音 - Sound, tone, alternate reading of a kanji
* In Japanese most kanji have multiple readings. Two common categories are kun and on. The difference is usually the origin of the reading. Kun reading is Japanese base and On is Chinese base for the most part.

紗代 - Silk era

紗 - see Shannon

代 - see Ushiromiya

嘉音 - Joyful sound

嘉 - fortunate, hopeful, joyful

音 - see Shannon

郷田　俊朗 - "home field" "talented and bright"

郷 - for the most part the same meaning as Maria's 里 but cannot be read as り and cannot be used as a unit of measure like Maria's 里. However, 郷 can be used as a title to address someone. 郷 as a title is similar to "Lord"

田 - field, farm land

俊 - talented, genius

朗 - bright, cheery, clear (as in clear sounding)

熊沢 チヨ - "Bear's stream" ?

熊 - bear

沢 - stream (usually mountain, also usually small). A small marsh-land might also be called a sawa as well

*チヨ - This is completely uncommon for someone from her generation to have a name all in katakana.
Possibility 1: she writes her name this way b/c her name in kanji is hard to read - Like this family would care about that.
Possibility 2: Alias.
Possibility 3: In kanji, her name can be read this way, but legally it is read differently.

*forgot about her ><
明日夢 - Tomorrow's Dream

明 - bright, lit, clear. Depending on use to reveal info.

日 - day, sun, sunday

*明日 means tomorrow.

夢 - dream

恋音 - Love's sound

恋 - Love, a crush, passion

音 - See Shannon

瑠音 - Precious(?) sound

瑠 - By itself, I'm not too sure of the meaning. It is a combination of 王 and 留 so I believe the root meaning is precious.
More commonly this kanji is used with 瑠璃 which is a gem (lapis). It has the connotation of blue (a clear deep azure).

音 - See Shannon

眞音 - True(?) sound

眞 - I actually don't know this kanji at all. This is the first I came across it. From what I find on the kanji, it is the old form of the kanji 真. 真 means true, pure, genuine, just.

音 - see Shannon

-------------------------------
Places
-------------------------------

六軒島

六 - 6
軒 - house, property (as in land)
島 - island

渡来庵 - Arriving traveler's retreat (?)
* I'm not sure how you read this. Judging by the other house mention the last kanji is read as あん.
と・らい・あん？ わたり・き・あん？ I have no idea.

渡 - to cross (as in cross over a river, not to strike out), migrate

来 - to come, future, next

庵 - ...
I didn't know you could read this as あん. Read as いおり it means retreat, resting place. I believe あん will have the same meaning. At least here it would make sense.

九羽鳥庵 - Nine feather bird's retreat

九 - 9

羽 - See Eva
*九羽 might mean Peacock or 鳳凰 (Phoenix)

鳥 - bird

庵 - see above

----------------------------
Notes
----------------------------

I think this is a very good approach to the mystery.

There are still many names we don't know.
1) Kinzo's wife
2) Maria's father
3) The name Kinzo gave Maria
4) Nanjo's son
5) A stretch might be Kyrie's son and Asumu's mother and father (as they raised Battler) <- I doubt this possibility

There are also other places on the island which we don't know if they have names. I'm assuming the main mansion has a name as well.
Does rose garden, chapel, the port, the beach, etc have names?
Judging by the two building we know the names to, the names seem to be related to birds.

[nagare]

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by johnishida

It's a magical barrier. The Stakes attacked her but, she used that barrier to protect herself. Later you find out, Virgilia (The First Beatrice), was sealed inside Kumawaza.

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I imagine if Beato is real AND is the culprit, just saying "hah, I could do this without your magic" isn't gong to help too much.

Again, I'm convinced that of the two Beatrices in Ep. 2, exactly one is real.

First is pretty relative. Also there are more than 2 Beatrices in the story.
1. Meta-world's Beato
2. The Beatrice Kinzo fell in love with
3. The Beatrice that the servants say is the "Master of the night"

4. The Beatrice who writes in Maria's notebook.

5. Virgilia
6. Kuradorian's Beatrice
7. Eva (in the Meta and at the epilogue of EP 03)
8. Ange (at the epilogue of EP 03)


Possibly several of these might be the same person.
Also only the first 3 are mentioned across all 3 episodes from a variety of sources.
#4 possibly did in all 3 episodes but was only really mentioned in Episode 2 (Maria is the source).
5-8 are all from Episode 3 only (currently at least).
7 & 8 are mostly likely alias (no source, you are just led to believe they 'exist' or become 'Beatrice')
5 & 6 might be lies just told in this episode (source is Rosa who cannot confirm a thing, Ronove's red text if you can believe Ronove's red text - although Beatrice confirms that a 'Beatrice' did die 19 years ago in red).

I'm not trying to shoot down ideas but I just want to cation trusting the narration/dialog especially in EP 03.

Originally Posted by Turtleen

I was thinking 'hometown' was Genji because his name begins with the kanji for 'hometown'.

Just want to point out that Gohda's not Genji's name starts with that kanji. Sorry for the late post ><

Originally Posted by Turtleen

Not sure if this has been brought up but, I've been told just a little while ago that the alcohol Kinzo drinks causes hallucination, or at least, there is an alcohol coloured green
that causes hallucination. I'd known of it before but never connected it to the one Kinzo drinks.
Here's the wiki article on it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absinthe
If it's been specified as being green and Kinzo drinking it regularily, I think it's pretty safe to say that absinthe is going to play a part in the answer arcs. Of course Umineko isn't going to mirror Higurashi or anything, but hallucinations played a huge part in Higurashi so it's possible there might be that theme again.

The effects of absinthe are greatly exaggerated. Absinthe is legal in various countries including Japan.
According to wiki, the ban on absinthe was lifted in 1981 in Japan. IIRC the story did specifically state Kinzo is drinking absinthe.

[Turtleen]

Just want to point out that Gohda's not Genji's name starts with that kanji. Sorry for the late post ><

xD Gohda... Genji, well you know, Gohda's what I meant.

The effects of absinthe are greatly exaggerated. Absinthe is legal in various countries including Japan.
According to wiki, the ban on absinthe was lifted in 1981 in Japan. IIRC the story did specifically state Kinzo is drinking absinthe.

Yeah, from what the wiki said, for it to still be legal in many countries it can't be very strongly hallucenogenic in reality but, usually movies or books exaggerate absinthe's effects, so it would still make sense that Ryukishi could decide to exaggerate it as well.
When was it said that absinthe is what he's drinking? I must have missed that.

For the 'real' Beatrice, in episode 2, she does say she's placing herself on the chessboard, I think the Beatrice in the meta world would be the real one while the Beatrice wearing the jacket and skirt is sort of a copy/clone type of thing that the real Beatrice has made to act in her place. Which makes it possible that others like the one who writes in Maria's notebook could also be copies. The one Kinzo fell in love with would probably also be the real one. Shannon and Kanon's Beatrice could be either.

[ClockWorkAngel]

I had a crazy idea that the Beatrice in ep2 was actually real. As I mean the one that Rosa cites in Ep3. Maybe stretching it, but it might be a possibility.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Peroyasha

5) A stretch might be Kyrie's son, mother and father (as they raised Battler) <- I doubt this possibility

Didn't Battler live with Asumu's parents?

[Goose Boy]

Mmm... it is strongly implied that he lived with his maternal grandparents ( or he would have lived with kinzo)

Why isnt there any thread about Ep4? the other threads started a month before the release but still there isnt...

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Goose Boy

Why isnt there any thread about Ep4? the other threads started a month before the release but still there isnt...

Because there is absolutely nothing to talk about: Ryukishi still didn't make a proper diary entry about episode 4 (there isn't any temporary title either).

Also, the discussions recently are quite active, so the other threads are fine by themselves. Creating a thread for Ep4 for only baseless speculations isn't exactly productive.

[chronotrig]

Last Sunday, Ryuukishi finally said something about ep4 for the first time in a month.
......He said it was starting to get interesting...nothing more, nothing less.
Not much to talk about yet

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Last Sunday, Ryuukishi finally said something about ep4 for the first time in a month.
......He said it was starting to get interesting...nothing more, nothing less.
Not much to talk about yet

Fuck yeah for vague comments

[Nadeor]

What Ryukishi said:

It's starting to get interesting

What Ryukishi meant:

I found a new way to mess with people's mind

[nagare]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

Didn't Battler live with Asumu's parents?

Yea, I was typing both post during my lunch break and wasn't careful.
Also I found Manon's 眞 in a kanji dictionary. I guess my long shot guess was right. It's another form of 真 (truth), but I've never seen this kanji used in a sentence or word before, so I don't know the exact usage, whether it can be interchangeable with 真 or has specific situational usage or not. But it seems like the old form of 真.

I'll go edit my post.

Originally Posted by Turtleen

Yeah, from what the wiki said, for it to still be legal in many countries it can't be very strongly hallucenogenic in reality but, usually movies or books exaggerate absinthe's effects, so it would still make sense that Ryukishi could decide to exaggerate it as well.

Quite possible. Ryukishi does over-exaggerate many things.

When was it said that absinthe is what he's drinking? I must have missed that.

緑の妖精 (Green Fairy) is another name for absinthe.　Also ニガヨモギ is wormwood (Artemisia absinthium),
the primary ingredient of absinthe.

Also interesting here, Kinzo made an allusion to how he'll die (throw me in the witch's furnace).
I'm pretty convince, the burnt body isn't Kinzo and Kinzo planted it there.

I'm glad you made me look that up XD
Kinzo was talking to Krauss and Nanjo here (EP 01) when Krauss went to inform him that the guests have arrived.

[tobiast88]

Um, no. It's not throw *me* into the furnace, but *those who would try to pull him out of his study*, as shown by the imperative form (shimae, etc)

[Turtleen]

Ah, that would be why I didn't notice then, I remember being focused on the rest of the 'page', having already heard he died in the furnace.
Thank you for going to the extent of a screenshot, you didn't have to do that but it does remind me of that allusion.

[nagare]

Originally Posted by tobiast88

Um, no. It's not throw *me* into the furnace, but *those who would try to pull him out of his study*, as shown by the imperative form (shimae, etc)

I didn't obviously do a translation. I said it was an allusion/reference to how he will die. I doubt it's just a coincidence that Kinzo's body is found burnt twice and in the above scene he mentions burning (a body) in a furnace.

[Rias]

Kinda related and kinda not related to ep3, Hempel's Raven solved:

Spoiler:

http://www.isenp.co.jp/news/20081022/news11.htm

[ClockWorkAngel]

Originally Posted by Rias

Kinda related and kinda not related to ep3, Hempel's Raven solved:

Spoiler:

http://www.isenp.co.jp/news/20081022/news11.htm

Pure awesome XD

[k//eternal]

hmm, well, it _is_ mentioned on wikipedia that in older times absinthe may have had hallucinogenic effects due to added coloring, and kinzo's drink certainly is said to be colorful

while the story certainly doesn't take place in the 19th century, kinzo's fascination with older western culture may have led him to collect some of the old liquor... but nobody else has been drinking this stuff, right? except when battler gets drunk at one point, maybe

i don't know how much it explains, but it does make it possible for at least two people to be hallucinating

[tobiast88]

Absinthe is not hallucinogenic. People started tripping out and getting sick in Europe back in the day because it was like *80% alcohol*. Meaning people drank a glass and got completely smashed, and when they'd drink a few glasses a day to forget their life since the stuff was cheap as dirt, they all got delirium tremens and started dying.

The component in absinthe which is supposed to make you go crazy is thujone, and it's not in concentrations near enough in the drink to do anything, and it's not a toxin that stays in the organism. So can we ONCE AND FOR ALL agree that absinthe is not a relevant point and is simply an interesting tidbit Ryukishi 07 put in ? Thank you.