[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

There's nothing in the epitaph that necessitates any sort of killing for the Second Twilight, so it's well within Beatrice's rights not to kill anyone for that.

Actually according to the epitaph-as-read-as-a-murder-ritual, the culprit shouldn't be killing on the Second Twilight at all. But whatever.

Beatrice also skips the Third Twilight sometimes. That's how she rolls.

[Jan-Poo]

There's never been any real point for Beatrice to respect the epitaph, it's just something she used to add flavor to her mystery and she never really cared that much to follow it. She just does the minimum necessary to make fools believe she's following some kind of esoteric ritual.

[Nanaya27]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I like your analysis (although I don't necessarily agree with all of it). What do you think of Ikuko=Yasu?

Haven't put a great deal of thought into it, but atm I don't like it very much. Though it is quite possible, since Tohya doesn't actually remember the details leading up to him waking up in Ikuko's house very well. Once Yasu realized he couldn't remember, she would step back and think "it's better this way". And, how do I say this? Ikuko=Yasu would fit in with them not being married, since Yasu doesn't have the equipment for sealing the deal and would be ashamed. But I don't mean to imply that there isn't an intimate relationship between Ikuko and Tohya in the case that she isn't Yasu. We just don't get to see it.

Anyways, I think the fact that Featherine wanted an answer check points away from Ikuko being Yasu. And I think she would have shown some sign of it when Ange took them to Fukuin. Though I might be wrong, there may be some really big hint pointing towards it that I haven't seen, or I may suddenly start liking the idea at some point, that's my opinion right now.

About the deal with the epitaph. I basically agree with Jan-Poo here, neither piece-Yasu nor Yasu the author had all that much reason to follow it to the letter. Though there is a very interesting interpretation of how solving the epitaph fits with fake murders:

Spoiler for epitaph stuff:

The witch shall praise the wise and bestow four treasures.

One shall be all the gold from the Golden Land.
One shall be the resurrection of all the dead souls.
One shall be the resurrection of the love that was lost.
One shall be to put the witch to sleep for all time.

Of course we know what Kinzo meant by all of these, but if we follow the idea that Yasu wanted to stay true to the epitaph, then we get something like this:

They get all the gold in the underground VIP room.
The farce stops, so all the people who faked their deaths come back to life.
If Battler solves it, then hopefully the lost love between him and Yasu would be revived.
And the illusion of the witch is destroyed.

It doesn't work in the stories/game boards obviously since piece-Yasu is actually killing, so #2 is out the window and #3 is laughable. But it might apply to R-prime, as yet another hint towards fake murders.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Nanaya27

Haven't put a great deal of thought into it, but atm I don't like it very much. Though it is quite possible, since Tohya doesn't actually remember the details leading up to him waking up in Ikuko's house very well. Once Yasu realized he couldn't remember, she would step back and think "it's better this way". And, how do I say this? Ikuko=Yasu would fit in with them not being married, since Yasu doesn't have the equipment for sealing the deal and would be ashamed. But I don't mean to imply that there isn't an intimate relationship between Ikuko and Tohya in the case that she isn't Yasu. We just don't get to see it.

Anyways, I think the fact that Featherine wanted an answer check points away from Ikuko being Yasu. And I think she would have shown some sign of it when Ange took them to Fukuin. Though I might be wrong, there may be some really big hint pointing towards it that I haven't seen, or I may suddenly start liking the idea at some point, that's my opinion right now.

There are a fair number of hints.

Spoiler for my usual Ikuko=Yasu arguments; skip if you've heard 'em before:

There are actually three ways to connect Ikuko to Yasu in Ikuko's name alone:

• Touya's name came from the age 18, which was Battler's age at the time of the Rokkenjima incident. Ikuko's name can be phonetically read as 1-9; 19 was Yasu's true age at the time of the incident.
• Shannon's "real" name, Sayo, can be phonetically read 3-4; Kanon's "real" name, Yoshiya, can phonetically be read 4-4-8; Ikuko is phonetically 1-9; Touya is phonetically 10-8 (but the kanji reads the same as the number 18); and there is also her author alias Itouikukuro Reigonamu, which Ange figured out can be read in numbers as 11019960576 (or 18^8). Basically, Ikuko and Yasu share the pattern of naming people using numbers.
• The Kanji reading of Ikuko's name literally means "many children". This can be interpreted numerous ways, but I always found it interesting how Claire would constantly refer to herself as "one but many".

Other hints include:

• How mystery novels are the basis of both Battler/Shannon's relationship and Ikuko/Touya's relationship.
• Ikuko's interest in adopting somebody she found on the street, apparently without attempting to contact his family, giving this person a new name, including her own family name, only after speaking with him a few minutes.
• Ikuko bribing the doctor to not tell anyone about this person.

Spoiler for new Ikuko=Yasu arguments:

If you think of Will as Touya (which makes a lot of sense to me):

• It explains how Will is able to gain access to information that even his Battler-memories would almost certainly not have (but Yasu would); in other words, it explains in real world terms how Will could have gained special access to Theatergoing Authority.

Also

• I find Beatrice in EPs 3 and 4 to be too dynamic to simply be a projection; I think it makes more sense to believe she is grounded on someone currently alive in the real world. I also think the same thing for Lion in EPs 7 and 8.
• The idea that Touya wrote EP3-5 without yet having figured out Beatrice's game, yet somehow presenting Beatrice's game correctly, I find difficult to accept. The only way would be if Touya figured it out from only the first 2 episodes plus Battler's memories, but in that case Meta-Battler's seeming ignorance becomes tricky.

That's not all but I don't feel like expending the energy to articulate any more at the moment.

Originally Posted by Nanaya27

About the deal with the epitaph. I basically agree with Jan-Poo here, neither piece-Yasu nor Yasu the author had all that much reason to follow it to the letter. Though there is a very interesting interpretation of how solving the epitaph fits with fake murders:

Spoiler for epitaph stuff:

The witch shall praise the wise and bestow four treasures.

One shall be all the gold from the Golden Land.
One shall be the resurrection of all the dead souls.
One shall be the resurrection of the love that was lost.
One shall be to put the witch to sleep for all time.

Of course we know what Kinzo meant by all of these, but if we follow the idea that Yasu wanted to stay true to the epitaph, then we get something like this:

They get all the gold in the underground VIP room.
The farce stops, so all the people who faked their deaths come back to life.
If Battler solves it, then hopefully the lost love between him and Yasu would be revived.
And the illusion of the witch is destroyed.

It doesn't work in the stories/game boards obviously since piece-Yasu is actually killing, so #2 is out the window and #3 is laughable. But it might apply to R-prime, as yet another hint towards fake murders.

I've thought the exact same thing about the end of the epitaph (though I doubt we are the first to do so). Yasu's interpretation of the epitaph is most certainly the inspiration for the murder game. I say game because no one could be resurrected if she actually killed them; it wouldn't be magic!

I think Yasu probably survived and wrote Legend and Turn after the incident, somehow constructing the message-in-a-bottle scenario to make them appear to have been written pre-incident (which would totally be in Yasu's/Beatrice's style). I think her murder game played a part in the tragedy, and that it was her own feelings of guilt which compelled her to write herself as an actual murderer.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Spoiler for new Ikuko=Yasu arguments:

If you think of Will as Touya (which makes a lot of sense to me):

• It explains how Will is able to gain access to information that even his Battler-memories would almost certainly not have (but Yasu would); in other words, it explains in real world terms how Will could have gained special access to Theatergoing Authority.

Also

• I find Beatrice in EPs 3 and 4 to be too dynamic to simply be a projection; I think it makes more sense to believe she is grounded on someone currently alive in the real world. I also think the same thing for Lion in EPs 7 and 8.
• The idea that Touya wrote EP3-5 without yet having figured out Beatrice's game, yet somehow presenting Beatrice's game correctly, I find difficult to accept. The only way would be if Touya figured it out from only the first 2 episodes plus Battler's memories, but in that case Meta-Battler's seeming ignorance becomes tricky.

That's not all but I don't feel like expending the energy to articulate any more at the moment.

I want to try and get my ideas about those points across. Don't get me wrong, I would have liked for Ikuko to actually be Yasu or another form of culprit that actually did it, but I think there is ot enough hard evidence and actually more that speaks against it. The biggest point against it is how Featherine and Beatrice are always depicted as two very different existences with very different points of view and experiences.
Especially how Dlanor says in Our Confession, that Featherine regrets having ripped out the guts of so many cats and if the reader would want to do the same to Beatrice's story...it seems to seperated for them to have any actual connection. Also it's Featherine's library in EP6 which enables Chick-Beato to enter the world of the Big Sister Beato...if Featherine/Ikuko was a future Yasu why not include her more into this concept. This seems more like Ikuko has collected a huge amount of information about the people on Rokkenjima (legaly and illegaly as we learn in EP8) and can thus delve deeper into the issue.

Concerning your points:

• The above mentioned collection would make it possible for Tôya to put together such a story. The information seem to be present, even if incomplet,e in 1998.. Also Will has no actuall connection to Featherine or Ikuko, not even Battler who he is actively seperated from in the plot. I'd maybe agree that he is "the Battler who made it istead of the one who did not make it", but I'd rather see him as the minority of readers who have a heart for the culprit and won't stop searching until they find that impossible happy ending BUT without magic.
• I'd also say that Beato is not merely a projection, but I'd like to seperate that from this discussion as I'd include this into my definition of the meta-world (1).
• I don't know why EP3-5 would need Tôya to have anything figured out. If you break it down, especially taking the logic of Our Confession, to the basic mystery story you end up with flawed stories. Of course they are cohesive, but they use assumptions which differ so much from EP1 and 2 that they seem to be impossible to fit together at first.
  In EP3 he was trying to solve the story with the clues present in his time: Eva being alive. So he constructed a story in which Eva was the culprit, but then he came upon inconstistencies but still decided to leave it that way. In EP4 he went with a Kinzô + Beatrice culprit theory, but he came upon yet other inconsistencies. And in EP5 we had the theory of the mysterious illegitimate child who was among the people on the island and we came pretty close with that but Tôya/Battler was too affraid to actually sacrifice somebody to be the culprit.
  The different stories are basically all about that, looking at inconsistent theories to throw away the things that don't fit and finally ending up with no other option but either blaming SOMEBODY or accepting fantasy.

I think Yasu probably survived and wrote Legend and Turn after the incident, somehow constructing the message-in-a-bottle scenario to make them appear to have been written pre-incident (which would totally be in Yasu's/Beatrice's style). I think her murder game played a part in the tragedy, and that it was her own feelings of guilt which compelled her to write herself as an actual murderer.

But if you argue pro for both Yasu's murder game and for the stories being written by her it simply doesn't matter whether they were written before or after the tragedy.
It is basically a narrative being constructed around her plan which needs to be there for her to even carry it out. So the story would have been present before and whether she writes it down before or after only differs in the idea of whether she lived or commited suicide. But then why would she end her plan with her own suicide, then change it during the tragedy only to then change it back again and include it in the story after the tragedy went different from what she planned? Would her plan be completely different from what her stories told then there would be nothing that the story actually tells us about her plans and the murder mystery game might as well be non-existent.

(1): Now, concerning my idea of the meta-world and how it inserts into the whole plot for me.

Spoiler for length:

I came to this idea based on how Our Confession was actually written from the perspective of Beatrice and how the mystical witch Beatrice is displayed in the plot from the very start.
Now, Beatrice is a witch who lived over a 1000 years and has been summoned by Kinzô, trapped into bodies, chained to the island and so on. Meta-Beatrice basically understands herself as among the primordial beings, even if you revealed that she was using Shannon's and Kanon's body, she would be insisting that it was her who came before them. The whole character has taken on an understanding of herself that she actually encompasses all those Beatrice's that came before her and that all the characters connected to her are created or summoned by her, not the other way around.
This gives me a slightly more ephemeral idea of the meta-world than the usual "it exists" theory. The meta-world is created by people having ideas, by people generalizing and creating concepts, by merely thinking in a way. Basically Beato started when Yasu was starting to talk to her, but because she was constructed by her (and others) as something that predates their first meeting she actually becomes what she is created as.

I think this is what Ryûkishi had in mind, because it is the only way how the finale of EP4 is actually tragic. Beatrice was created to cover up the truth, to take the blame and she was actually having fun as long as she had no actuall challenge, but she was starting to suffer when counter-theories started ripping her to shreds. She actually became a breathing entity in that meta-world merely by being talked about, but she was also able to experience pain. Of course she can't die as long as people talk about her and consider her real, so she needs to be put to rest.
This is actually what is also in the epitaph. Once all the mysteries are solved, the gold is found and everything is over the witch can finally rest in peace because there is no need for that elaborate fantasy anymore.

Thus of course Beatrice goes through character-development and change, because she is a breathing (though not actually LIVING) character in the story. Beatrice "exists", to quote the characters. Though I think it's stronger in the original language because it's actually Beatrice wa "i"ru, making it ambigious wether she is actually a person or a concept.
That would also make a rather sinister solution to the escape scene in EP8 possible. When Battler says that she has not done any murders he is talking to Beatrice, who he has fallen in love with. Would we consider that these are actually the meta-characters talking to each other we could see this as absolution for Beatrice but not for Yasu. Beatrice was never guilty because she never had influence on the island, she was an innocent "being" that was used to disguise horrible crimes.
I don't know, somehow I like this idea because it allows for everybody to be guilty and it is not as morally ambigious as Battler saying to somebody who actually planned murders (though possibly not commiting them), "It's okay, you didn't kill them, you only allowed it to happen and gave the culprit the means to do so."

[AuraTwilight]

It's worth noting, since it seems to get forgotten in these Ikuko arguments a lot, that Featherine is the meta-counterpart to Ikuko-as-Toya, not "Ikuko", the woman who found Battler. The two are depicted as having different personalities, opinions, and manner of speaking.

[Oblivion]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's worth noting, since it seems to get forgotten in these Ikuko arguments a lot, that Featherine is the meta-counterpart to Ikuko-as-Toya, not "Ikuko", the woman who found Battler. The two are depicted as having different personalities, opinions, and manner of speaking.

Are the two seperate enties or is Toya-Ikuko just another personality of Ikuko?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I want to try and get my ideas about those points across. Don't get me wrong, I would have liked for Ikuko to actually be Yasu or another form of culprit that actually did it, but I think there is ot enough hard evidence and actually more that speaks against it. The biggest point against it is how Featherine and Beatrice are always depicted as two very different existences with very different points of view and experiences.

Well, that's easy. Meta-Beatrice was born of a thousand years of waiting for Battler and exists to engage the Battler of 1986. Ikuko has lived at least 12+ years longer than that (which would be, like, 2000 years of witch time) and done many more things.

Even if they were once the same person, if you took a snapshot of them at the moment of their genesis, and looked at it independent of any context, you would see two different people, just as you'd arguably say the Yasu of 1980 and the Yasu of 1986 were different. Certainly a meta-representation of these individuals would be different, or at least could be.

Also, Beatrice died. She couldn't survive and maintain her catbox. But personalities can die (HEH) and so if Beatrice dies and her creator lives, she'd need a new meta-identity as she could no longer use the one she'd been using before.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's worth noting, since it seems to get forgotten in these Ikuko arguments a lot, that Featherine is the meta-counterpart to Ikuko-as-Toya, not "Ikuko", the woman who found Battler. The two are depicted as having different personalities, opinions, and manner of speaking.

Yes, Featherine is more or less the meta-counterpart of their combined effort as a writer...something like THE mystery solving and writing author. She's neither really Tôya nor Ikuko but more or less a symbol for what they did and how they came across. It's funny because they apparently hired an actor to play them at release events and Featherine is basically doing the same thing. She and her Ikuko facade is probably more like how Ange expected that author to be like when she found out more about her...like mysterious and a little bit snobbish and very sure of herself.

In the end it's true that we don't know much about the actuall Ikuko apart from the few bits and pieces we get inbetween. That's even more a reason why I think it's a little bit much to assume that she's Yasu.

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, that's easy. Meta-Beatrice was born of a thousand years of waiting for Battler and exists to engage the Battler of 1986. Ikuko has lived at least 12+ years longer than that (which would be, like, 2000 years of witch time) and done many more things.

Even if they were once the same person, if you took a snapshot of them at the moment of their genesis, and looked at it independent of any context, you would see two different people, just as you'd arguably say the Yasu of 1980 and the Yasu of 1986 were different. Certainly a meta-representation of these individuals would be different, or at least could be.

Also, Beatrice died. She couldn't survive and maintain her catbox. But personalities can die (HEH) and so if Beatrice dies and her creator lives, she'd need a new meta-identity as she could no longer use the one she'd been using before.

I don't really agree with Meta-Beatrice being only the product of those 6 years, Yasutrice is the result of that but Meta-Beato is much more. Remember how she actually believes to be that 1000 year old witch who formed a pact with Kinzô over 40 years ago and was then trapped in an artificial body until the late 70's ... she even talks about ancient events that she is supposed to have witnessed and demons she has met before even being summoned by Kinzô. Beatrice is that fantasy of a witch and she is also what Erika argued, a face to the evil spirits of Rokkenjima, which is why she adopted their weakpoints.

And Beatrice did not actually die in 1986, she died somewhere inbetween 1986 and 1998 at the moment when Battler was finally able to lay her to rest and even then she continued as this spectre which haunts the stories around Rokkenjima. What died is Yasu's Beatrice, the one that BATTLER tried to put together again in EP6 but learned that he couldn't. If Yasu was actually alive and it was his love for Yasu that he supposedly found...why would he need to create a new one and find his love for that if Yasu is right in front of him?
I would say that Meta-Beatrice has of course aspects of Yasu and her struggle on the gameboard are basically Yasu's struggles...but I wouldn't say that she is limited to being that person.

In fact I see it the other way around, Beatrice needs to live in order for the catbox to exist. Beatrice dying is the same as the catbox either being opened or being forgotten.

[Remon]

Episode 6 Tips :
Featherine Augustus Aurora
Blablabla
She has tired of life after a thousand years and constantly repeats a cycle of life and death.
In the past, she served as the Master for several games as a legendary witch, but her legend, glory, and memory have already disappeared into the past and been forgotten.
Blablabla
It records her name, appearance and other aspects of her personality. (referring to her horns)

That spells Ex-Beatrice to me.

[Renall]

Beatrice is incapable of going out into the world. She had to stay behind on Rokkenjima. Whether that means Yasu did as well (through suicide or, well, I guess just staying there) doesn't really seem to be relevant.

But if Yasu did leave, which if she did not die would obviously be something she'd have to do, she couldn't be Beatrice anymore.

Meta-Beatrice doesn't really matter to this argument as the Meta-World is unrelated to the ideas which can spring forth as characters there (more or less). The Beatrice-That-Was can't and doesn't leave the island, her catbox is sealed up and her legend is born, and if her creator survived in actuality, she'd be unable to use that imagery anymore. The possibility of taking on another identity is strengthened by that... particularly since, after all, anyone surviving Rokkenjima other than Eva would have to take on a literal new identity.

You do that for a decade or two and who knows what your meta-representation looks like?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Remon

Episode 6 Tips :
Featherine Augustus Aurora
Blablabla
She has tired of life after a thousand years and constantly repeats a cycle of life and death.
In the past, she served as the Master for several games as a legendary witch, but her legend, glory, and memory have already disappeared into the past and been forgotten.
Blablabla
It records her name, appearance and other aspects of her personality. (referring to her horns)

That spells Ex-Beatrice to me.

I have to disagree with that translation, at least I read it differently.

Originally Posted by TIPS EP6

Featherine Augustus Aurora
The witch of dignified theatre-going, plays and remaining a spectator.
Being tired of living thousands of years, she still repeats life and death.

Once she served as the Master in many famous Games as a legendary witch (or maybe The Witch of Legends), but legend, glory, even the memories have faded into the past and been forgotten.　
Only the majestic medals on her bossom serve as a reminder for that...

The horseshoe shaped object floating on her head is a memory support device. It records her personality, that is name, appearance, character and so on.

If it weren't for that she would grow old, to the degree of being unable to maintain even her personality.

The legend of Beatrice has done much but surely not faded into oblivion in 1998 and we also don't learn of any other great games that Beatrice is supposed to have taken part as a Gamemaster in.
I would say that the memory device is more a hint towards Tôya's loss of Battler's memory and how it reduced him to a bumbling mess.

Another fact is that Featherine is also descrived as the witch of remaining a spectator or looking at something from a distance (傍観). She is actively described as somebody who dislikes it to meddle into a game...and I think that is a rather harsh 180° turn that has not really been announced in Beato's character.

[jjblue1]

Hum... making a discussion about Featherine is going to be complicate because it's going to be tied to our perception of the Meta world.

Anyway, I'll try to express my idea.

To me Featherine doesn't represent just Ikuko but the meta representation of the duo Toya/Ikuko.
They are the writers behind the tales Ange mention in Ep 6, not just Ikuko.
Funny enough both Battler and Yasu inherited the title of golden witch/wizard (someone told me in a fashion this would make Wizard Battler "Battler Beatrice", same as "Eva Beatrice" and "Ange Beatrice") so in a fashion Featherine can be an 'evolution' of Beatrice on a meta level.

Anyway it's hard if not impossible to say if, should Yasu be Ikuko, would he represent herself with Featherine or not.
Yasu's first persona, the pale Beatrice was different looking for our Beato and had a different character, likely similar to the one of Beato the elder in Ep 6, which was different from the Beato of Ep 1-4.
It wouldn't surprise me that, should Yasu be still alive, she would create a different persona both in character and in look, as to her Beato is likely dead in the Rokkenjima's explosion.

So, although my idea if that Featherine represent both Toya and Ikuko, it's not completely impossible that I'm wrong and Featherine represent just Ikuko.

Also she's a meta. Gaap originally was Beatrice then Yasu wanted that name for herself.
If Featherine is something similar to Ronove that was created using Genji as basis her maker could have re-written her nature or changed it like Yasu did when gave to Beato the bud of love. Although Featherine as a very cool story and seems to be a very powerful character we don't really know what Featherine is and meta characters have a wide range of possible evolutions and changes and times for witches is relative so, even if we say that a witch is really old, in human terms she could have been born a hour ago.

I think we can do a lot of interesting theories about what Featherine is.

But back at the matter previously discussed, in short, is Ikuko the same person as Yasu?

Personally, I think that if Ikuko was going to be nobody, all the space she received is either a red herring because Ryukishi wanted us to reach a false assumption or a waste.

Ikuko behaves oddly. No reason is given but there must be a reason.
Battler is a survivor of the Rokkenjima incident. His face probably showed up on the news. He might have been a cold blooded murderer for all she know.
Why to hide him in her home and take care of him?
Back then she wasn't a professional writer yet, she didn't know he could help her, the Rokkenjima incident wasn't likely that famous yet, she has money so it's unlikely she hopes he'll lend her the part of the inheritance he's not claiming so: why to hide him? why not to return him to his remaining relatives?

And even if she hadn't recognized him... why to take care of him and keep him hidden from the world? Even if she didn't know him... she should have thought he might have a family that loved him and was worried for him. It's even said that in the beginning Toya wanted to remember so... why not to help him?

It's odd, if not crazy, and we're given no explanation for such a odd behaviour.
So, instead than thinking that Ikuko is a mad woman who is willing to hide a potential assassin in her house as well as to keep apart from his family an innocent boy, I like to think she had a better reason, namely she's Yasu.

Or maybe I just have too much love for Ikuko.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I have to disagree with that translation, at least I read it differently.

It just uses 千年, which is compatible with both "thousands" and "a thousand".

Originally Posted by haguruma

The legend of Beatrice has done much but surely not faded into oblivion in 1998 and we also don't learn of any other great games that Beatrice is supposed to have taken part as a Gamemaster in.

The incident and forgeries are still popular, but the idea that the incident was caused by the legendary witch Beatrice pretty much died out with EP5. As for other great games, Ikuko was a mystery author for over ten years by the time EP6 was written. Considering that she keeps throwing in Higurashi references and building Higurashi character's into Featherine's backstory, it seems fairly likely that she's the in-universe author of that story.

--

Here's another thing. Meta-Beatrice gave up and died in EP4 due to Battler not taking the mystery seriously, and we were told that a meta-entity dies when they stop thinking or lose interest. Suddenly Featherine is introduced as a witch who lost interest in making games, and she's overseeing Battler creating a game board on his own for the first time. Isn't that interesting?

So picture this scenario. Ikuko writes the framework for EP4 as in Our Confession and starts running through it with Tohya to decide Battler's actions. Then they have a huge fight halfway through because Tohya can't figure out why Ikuko's suddenly getting angry at him for this sin he can't remember, and Ikuko throws up her hands. The rest of the game plays out with little input from Ikuko; nothing happens on the 2nd day other than Battler's exploration of the empty board. Ikuko gives Tohya one last chance with the endgame debate, and when it becomes clear that he isn't even trying to approach it as a mystery, she declares that she'll never write another forgery and to hell with him.

Now, doesn't Featherine's hands-off observation in EP6 look rather like Ikuko's evaluation of the story Tohya wrote by himself to apologize to her?

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by haguruma

But if you argue pro for both Yasu's murder game and for the stories being written by her it simply doesn't matter whether they were written before or after the tragedy.
It is basically a narrative being constructed around her plan which needs to be there for her to even carry it out. So the story would have been present before and whether she writes it down before or after only differs in the idea of whether she lived or commited suicide. But then why would she end her plan with her own suicide, then change it during the tragedy only to then change it back again and include it in the story after the tragedy went different from what she planned? Would her plan be completely different from what her stories told then there would be nothing that the story actually tells us about her plans and the murder mystery game might as well be non-existent.

I don't think that the stories were plans. Why would she write multiple plans that were so different? There may have been a plan, but Legend and Turn are not it. So, while they may well have included bits and pieces from R-Prime, there's no guarantee an actual suicide was ever intended. There are a number of ways to interpret her fictional suicides (which only happen in EP2 and EP4) without believing she wanted to actually kill herself, such as metaphorical death, an expression of her guilt, or that they were only real in the fictions when in R-Prime her plan called her to fake her own death.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

So picture this scenario. Ikuko writes the framework for EP4 as in Our Confession and starts running through it with Tohya to decide Battler's actions. Then they have a huge fight halfway through because Tohya can't figure out why Ikuko's suddenly getting angry at him for this sin he can't remember, and Ikuko throws up her hands. The rest of the game plays out with little input from Ikuko; nothing happens on the 2nd day other than Battler's exploration of the empty board. Ikuko gives Tohya one last chance with the endgame debate, and when it becomes clear that he isn't even trying to approach it as a mystery, she declares that she'll never write another forgery and to hell with him.

Now, doesn't Featherine's hands-off observation in EP6 look rather like Ikuko's evaluation of the story Tohya wrote by himself to apologize to her?

Like I already said, I like the basic idea of her being Yasu but I still don't have any satisfactory evidence that gives any merrit to it.

Now considering your idea, it was basically established that Tôya was a total recluse who did not even actively seem to have a conversation with the frickin' servants and let Ikuko handle everything. All he did was stay in her house and provide her with the necessary groundwork for her to write it into a cohesive whole. Now this could be Ryûkishi not really thinking things through (like the idea of Shion surviving in the woods of Hinamizawa and looking smashing...maybe ), but having them basically split up for some time...that seems kind of bad for Tôya's living conditions, especially when you consider that within the meta-frame it was Beatrice who was paralyzed for one whole round of the game.

Also it was less Battler's incompetence but more Beato being tired of suffering only to entertain the spectating witches what made her retreat into her shell. Battler did promise her at the end of EP4 that he would solve her final question and she actually wished to be killed...not for him to beat the game but for him to kill her, to crush her. That would be kinda strange if it were Ikuko talking, wouldn't it?!
Would she really be Ikuko, where's the suffering? She basically has a new existence, she's with Battler, they seem reasonably content. Unless it is a very badly written "please, let the past go" argument after Tôya remembered, there is not very much reason for Yasu/Ikuko having suicidal tendencies. And then again, if she merely wanted him to let it go, why wasn't it enough for her that he found an answer to the mystery?!
Honestly, if she changed her name, her appearance, her personality (etc.) so far and took traumatized, amnesiac Battler in without ever telling him the truth...why exactly was she angry when he didn't solve the riddle that her past self created? Then she could as well NOT create a fake-persona and just live in seclusion with him.

And about Featherine's comments regarding EP6, which is clearly a story by Tôya/Battler to Beatrice, not only does she refer to it as her work which she wants Ange as her medium read to her, she also says that it contains a solution she arrived at. For her to arrive at a solution she must have been seperated from it...pretty difficult for the one who is supposed to be the culprit.
Also she says that she is still uncertain about several things, like if the way the two Beatos behave can be applied to the culprit using the veil of fantasy in 1986 as well...why should she be uncertain about it? She's so cocky all the time, shouldn't she be even cockier when she truly knew what was going on?
And this even only fully applies if you regard Featherine in EP6 as a 1:1 representation of Ikuko...

Like I said, I would like to believe in the idea because it'd make Yasu pretty badass...but either there is too much that speaks against it (at least as much as speaks for it) or Ryûkishi suddenly got horrible at writing characters in this one instance and made her totally unbelievable (though it happened before...I'm looking at you Tomitake )

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I don't think that the stories were plans. Why would she write multiple plans that were so different? There may have been a plan, but Legend and Turn are not it. So, while they may well have included bits and pieces from R-Prime, there's no guarantee an actual suicide was ever intended. There are a number of ways to interpret her fictional suicides (which only happen in EP2 and EP4) without believing she wanted to actually kill herself, such as metaphorical death, an expression of her guilt, or that they were only real in the fictions when in R-Prime her plan called her to fake her own death.

Well, the answer to why she would write different plans was already pretty evident during EP1-3, became more obvious later and was finally laid out to be true in Our Confession.

Spoiler for Our Confession:

She goes through several plans evaluating how she could create a murder mystery depending on which set of accomplices she finally chooses. Of course if she chose Rosa the events would play out pretty different from choosing Krauss and Natsuhi. Survivors, victims, especially the people who will be chosen for the first twilight and the place to conduct it would be majorly different.

Also, if she never intended a suicide (which Ryûkishi pretty much confirmed) why include it in the whole plot (not the message bottles but Umineko as a whole) in the first place. That is not even a red herring it's a crucial part of the development of the culprit...if she has decided to actually die in case her plan succeds/goes wrong (depending on the perspective) that changes her character dramatically if she never ever intended to do so. If Legend and Turn are not even similar to what she planned then what was her plan? Why introduce us to this intricate murder game that Battler is supposed to clear up if this is not even remotely similar to what she planned Battler to clear up?
Why would she later write a story including a complicated murder mystery riddle and when would she do so? We learn that one of the bottles is found only a day or two after the incident by the police, why would she create that story if she actually helped Battler escape? Did he have amnesia already when she put him into the boat? Was she expecting such an event?
So many things just don't add up the way considering how the whole thing is set up in the stories if you suppose that this was not part of her plan.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Now considering your idea, it was basically established that Tôya was a total recluse who did not even actively seem to have a conversation with the frickin' servants and let Ikuko handle everything. All he did was stay in her house and provide her with the necessary groundwork for her to write it into a cohesive whole. Now this could be Ryûkishi not really thinking things through (like the idea of Shion surviving in the woods of Hinamizawa and looking smashing...maybe ), but having them basically split up for some time...that seems kind of bad for Tôya's living conditions, especially when you consider that within the meta-frame it was Beatrice who was paralyzed for one whole round of the game.

It depends on the form of the fight, but they'd been living together for at least 12 years by the time they wrote EP4. I find it hard to believe Ikuko would withhold food or something, or that Tohya would be completely incapable of interacting with the household servants regardless of how reclusive he was. In any case, EP4 Beatrice seemed deeply depressed at the end rather than angry, so perhaps I should say that Ikuko herself was depressed, but that manifested in a refusal to write anymore, not completely cutting Tohya off from human contact.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Also it was less Battler's incompetence but more Beato being tired of suffering only to entertain the spectating witches what made her retreat into her shell. Battler did promise her at the end of EP4 that he would solve her final question and she actually wished to be killed...not for him to beat the game but for him to kill her, to crush her. That would be kinda strange if it were Ikuko talking, wouldn't it?!

I think you're equating them a little too closely. As a meta-entity, I think that Beatrice is basically representative of a thought process. We were told repeatedly how meta-entities live only when they're thinking, and die the moment they stop. We even saw how Meta-Battler briefly ceased to exist as a result of being attacked with a line of reasoning he didn't want to think about. In Meta-Beatrice's case, the thought process sustaining her is the desire for Tohya to solve the mystery and remember his promise. Killing her would translate into either fulfilling that hope or causing Ikuko to give up on it completely. It needn't correspond to Ikuko herself being suicidal.

As for the spectating witches, they're something Meta-Beatrice tolerated because she thought there was a chance they could help Battler succeed, right? So if she thought that chance vanished, then the reason to continue putting up with Lambda and Bern would vanish as well. Bern in particular is basically the avatar of the Witch Hunters, and Ikuko was pretty negative about her readers in EP6, so you have to imagine that she must have had some kind of bad experience with them.

Originally Posted by haguruma

And about Featherine's comments regarding EP6, which is clearly a story by Tôya/Battler to Beatrice, not only does she refer to it as her work which she wants Ange as her medium read to her, she also says that it contains a solution she arrived at. For her to arrive at a solution she must have been seperated from it...pretty difficult for the one who is supposed to be the culprit.

Hold on. "Tohya" said it was her work, but Featherine said it was Battler's work, which she was just observing. Since we're talking about the meta-world, shouldn't Featherine be the one who counts here? We know the meeting with "Tohya" never happened in reality, so it could just be an illusion created by Featherine to summon Ange.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Also she says that she is still uncertain about several things, like if the way the two Beatos behave can be applied to the culprit using the veil of fantasy in 1986 as well...why should she be uncertain about it? She's so cocky all the time, shouldn't she be even cockier when she truly knew what was going on?
And this even only fully applies if you regard Featherine in EP6 as a 1:1 representation of Ikuko...

Well, if it's not her work, it shouldn't be strange that she would be uncertain about it. Even if it allegedly demonstrates the truth of her own stories, she can't know ahead of time whether it really does so, or how the characters Tohya created will behave, or what tricks will appear.

[WitchOfDoubt]

I have a new theory about Beatrice/Yasu's identity. Consider the following:

* They are androgynous, incorporating aspects of the masculine and the feminine.

* Beatrice was active in the 1980's.

* Beatrice was rich, but did not know what to do with all of that money and lived like a bird in a gilded cage.

* Beatrice could sing, and had the nickname of "Beato" - "beat", perhaps.

* In Episode 7, the Beatrice we knew from before ("black Beatrice") was replaced by Clair ("white Beatrice").

* Beatrice had an awful childhood and lived as a recluse in a secret mansion.

* Beatrice preferred the company of children.

* Beatrice orchestrated terrifying scenes that began close to midnight, when something evil's lurking in the dark. Under the moonlight, you see a sight that almost stops your heart...

[AuraTwilight]

You, sir, are a motherfucking genius.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by WitchOfDoubt

I have a new theory about Beatrice/Yasu's identity. Consider the following:

* They are androgynous, incorporating aspects of the masculine and the feminine.

* Beatrice was active in the 1980's.

* Beatrice was rich, but did not know what to do with all of that money and lived like a bird in a gilded cage.

* Beatrice could sing, and had the nickname of "Beato" - "beat", perhaps.

* In Episode 7, the Beatrice we knew from before ("black Beatrice") was replaced by Clair ("white Beatrice").

* Beatrice had an awful childhood and lived as a recluse in a secret mansion.

* Beatrice preferred the company of children.

* Beatrice orchestrated terrifying scenes that began close to midnight, when something evil's lurking in the dark. Under the moonlight, you see a sight that almost stops your heart...

Why there's not an Umineko AMV with Thriller as background music? ;_;