[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Mali

Bluetruth:
It's possible to construct a theory for Kanon to dissapear from the guestroom using missing definitions of "the room", "enter" and "leave". "The room" was never refered as the "guest room" and doesn't include all of the bathroom, the bedroom and the closet. Otherwise the guest room was refered as "this room".
It may be true that he never left "the room",but it doesn't not deny that he can left (or went out) the guest room!
Thus he can disappear from the guestroom!
I say more.
"The room includes place X that's not hidden and the guest room
Like Ronove said in the 5th game there is no rule to call A as B.

Sorry to burst that bubble, but that only works due to the limitations of translation again. In the JP script the room was always referred to as "the guestroom" (客室) and "leaving and entering" (出入り), "entering the room" (入室) and "withdrawal (from the room)" (退出) are all used as proper verbs and only need the noun "room" when being translated.
Problem is...unless the translators and editors at Witch Hunt TOTALLY saw through the trick the moment they read it, this was impossible to solve correctly on an editorial basis.

Well, we can always go with Erika's solution from EP8 now:

Spoiler for EP8 Manga Chapter 19:

In the duel during the 6th game
You two made a statement on the number of people in Red
there are 17
17 even if you included me
1+17=17 people
Even though Kinzo's death was supposed to be decided, there are 17 if you add me.....?
Aah, it's so easy if you think about it!
And this logic is in direct connection to Battler's escape trick!!
Kanon?! He escaped on some way from the guesthouse?! He entered the room in exchange for you and dissappeared through magic?!
Don't make me laugh!! People don't dissappear through magic
Within that closet there 'existed' a human who was not Kanon!!
And that person is the true form of your rescuer

…....
The name Kanon can only be carried by the person themself!
The rescuer was Kanon!

Do you think you can escape with that level of Red?
At the time the rescuer snuck out of the guesthouse that person was not Kanon
!!
At that time a perfect seal was applied to the cousin's room in the guesthouse, so only a human from the neighbouring room could come to your aid
In other words, a person from the neighbouring room snuck out through the window and then entered the guestroom in exchange for you while carrying the name Kanon
And after hiding within the closet that person dropped the name Kanon and returned to the former identity
All names can only be carried by the person themselves
but if that 'someone' is Kanon himself then there is no problem
I thought it was weird. Why was I able to speak out that contradictory Red of being the 18th one during the duel?
That was you declaring the 'number of bodies' and me, without intent, declaring the 'number of names', right?!
There are humans who carry two names refering to one body...
That is the true shape of the logic that is the number of people...!!

Edit: Does anyone know the answer to the "6 coins and 3 cups" problem? I mean, do you really have to cut 1 coin into two pieces?

The solution I know is, put 3 coins in 1 cup, 1 in the second, 2 in the third, and then put the third cup into the second one. It's as much of a cheat as breaking the coins in half...just a lot more doable and depends very much on playing with words, since there was never any mention that there couldn't be anything else in the cups besides the coins.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Sorry to burst that bubble, but that only works due to the limitations of translation again. In the JP script the room was always referred to as "the guestroom" (客室) and "leaving and entering" (出入り), "entering the room" (入室) and "withdrawal (from the room)" (退出) are all used as proper verbs and only need the noun "room" when being translated.
Problem is...unless the translators and editors at Witch Hunt TOTALLY saw through the trick the moment they read it, this was impossible to solve correctly on an editorial basis.

Argh, not knowing the original script gives me a great disadvantage, does it?

Well, we can always go with Erika's solution from EP8 now:

Spoiler for EP8 Manga Chapter 19:

In the duel during the 6th game
You two made a statement on the number of people in Red
there are 17
17 even if you included me
1+17=17 people
Even though Kinzo's death was supposed to be decided, there are 17 if you add me.....?
Aah, it's so easy if you think about it!
And this logic is in direct connection to Battler's escape trick!!
Kanon?! He escaped on some way from the guesthouse?! He entered the room in exchange for you and dissappeared through magic?!
Don't make me laugh!! People don't dissappear through magic
Within that closet there 'existed' a human who was not Kanon!!
And that person is the true form of your rescuer

…....
The name Kanon can only be carried by the person themself!
The rescuer was Kanon!

Do you think you can escape with that level of Red?
At the time the rescuer snuck out of the guesthouse that person was not Kanon
!!
At that time a perfect seal was applied to the cousin's room in the guesthouse, so only a human from the neighbouring room could come to your aid
In other words, a person from the neighbouring room snuck out through the window and then entered the guestroom in exchange for you while carrying the name Kanon
And after hiding within the closet that person dropped the name Kanon and returned to the former identity
All names can only be carried by the person themselves
but if that 'someone' is Kanon himself then there is no problem
I thought it was weird. Why was I able to speak out that contradictory Red of being the 18th one during the duel?
That was you declaring the 'number of bodies' and me, without intent, declaring the 'number of names', right?!
There are humans who carry two names refering to one body...
That is the true shape of the logic that is the number of people...!!

I find the mangas nice to read but I don't consider them canon.
Well, exluding Skannon, I totally forgot "Kanon can inherit the name 'Kinzo' or 'Kanon uses his false name'.

Originally Posted by haguruma

The solution I know is, put 3 coins in 1 cup, 1 in the second, 2 in the third, and then put the third cup into the second one. It's as much of a cheat as breaking the coins in half...just a lot more doable and depends very much on playing with words, since there was never any mention that there couldn't be anything else in the cups besides the coins.

Ah thanks.

[Levani]

I find the mangas nice to read but I don't consider them canon.

On what basis can you claim that Manga is not canon when it has been approved by Ryukishi?

[Mali]

Originally Posted by Levani

On what basis can you claim that Manga is not canon when it has been approved by Ryukishi?

My opinion. I did not know the fact you stated. I admit that I didn't read any interviews of the creator. Should I?

[Levani]

Originally Posted by Mali

My opinion. I did not know the fact you stated. I admit that I didn't read any interviews of the creator. Should I?

Only if you're interested.

Though Manga is hundred percent canon, there is no use with denying that now at this point. Ryukishi has confirmed it numerous times.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by Levani

Only if you're interested.

Though Manga is hundred percent canon, there is no use with denying that now at this point. Ryukishi has confirmed it numerous times.

Haha, I thought that the mangas were ispired by the VN.

Do you mind if you could me give me some translated sources? I can't read Japanese so the official side is not an option. But I hate using google translator it's so unreliable.
I only know of an interview in portions with Ryukishi which regards Episode 6 and 7.

[Levani]

I think it's best if you ask Haguruma, he's been doing all the translation from the EP8 manga release. He probably has everything organized.

[Mali]

I wrote a theory for Kanon's disappearance. I don't use blue.

My idea: Instead of trying to move Kanon from the inside, why not change the guest room instead?

Battler called the cousins' room. He expressed concern to the people because he cannot contacted the other 'victims'. They wanted to carry out the plan to fool Erika but Battler couldn't go to see the others. Krauss (or Rudolph, Hideyoshi, Godha) saw that Erika used duct tape to seal his room and told Battler to stay. They sent Kanon (then sneaking out before the rooms were sealed) to the mansion. He found the corpses and he knew Battler was in danger. To rescue Battler and stop Erika he chosed to sacrifice himself. There were no knives anymore so he took the most extreme thing he know: bombs. After switching places with Battler he fired the bomb.

Well, if a bomb destroys the guest room it disappears and everything and everybody with it (Kanon and Erika). The game results show that Battler died. Possibly dying in this explosion?

What do you think about it?

[AuraTwilight]

I'm pretty sure blowing the hell out of a room counts as unsealing it.

[eX_ploit]

So, before I start answering there is one issue I want to discuss with all of you.
There is this widespread opinion that 7th game is the one where we learn culprits real story. So how about all of you explain me something? There is a particular scene that happens right before the start of 7th game. And it pretty much confirms that 7th game does not reveal the truth.
So here's the scene in question with my commentaries.
After end of 6th game Featherine summons Bernkastel and they have this dialogue:

"It seems Beatrice's game has ended with Battler's victory.
......I observed it. It was quite entertaining."

"......I'm sure you liked seeing me fail miserably."

"Nonsense, it was a splendid performance...
......I'm sure Beato is very grateful to you."

".........Hmph.
......And? If you want me to read the Fragments of Beato's game aloud for you, I refuse. I'm not your miko anymore."

"I have observed all of Beato's games.
......I also watched Lambdadelta's game and Battler's game with great interest.
......I believe I have formed an answer for all the riddles in my own way.
.........The culprit. The motive. The individual tricks.
......I'm not yet clear about the very last part of the epitaph's riddle, but I have enough of a theory that if I actually went to Rokkenjima and investigated, I should be able to resolve that part as well."

"............And...?"

"Of course, since there is no single truth, my theory is probably only one of many possibilities.
......However, it is one of those possibilities, so that problem is a trivial one."

Just some opening words first.

"......What are you up to?
.........Do you want to debate Beato's game with me?"

"Wrong.
.........What I want is to look at the answers, child of man."

Those words of Featherine's made Bernkastel straighten up.

"So far, you have spiced up this tale as an actor. In doing that, you have probably come to know many truths.
......However, even you are unaware of the truth behind several riddles that Beato has skillfully kept hidden, correct......?"

".........I see...
......You want to use me to chew apart and string out the guts of something again."

"After watching a play, reading the pamphlet and learning what goes on behind the scenes is similar to, as you would say it, enjoying some black tea after a meal.
......That enjoyment cannot be left undone."

"You like to play with them and love them while they're alive, then eat their flesh when they die.
......So, cats are doubly useful to you.
.........Just die, monster."

"I want...to look at the answers.
.........I'm sure you want to know them."

So, it looks like Featherine wants to reveal the truth.

"Think of it as a burial for Beato's corpse, where you are in charge of the service.
......What do you say about that, child of man?"

"......Now, you're starting to speak my language."

When Featherine snapped her fingers, a thin spotlight appeared on the table, which was covered with cluttered books.

There......lay a folded version of the game board for Beato's game.

The Witch of Theatergoing spun her finger in a circle, and the game board opened up by itself, showing the black and white pieces lined up inside it.

".........The game board and all the pieces are arranged. ......The records for the previous games are all here as well."

With a rustling sound, the book flipped through all its pages of its own accord, front to back, shut itself, and flew to the side of the game board, where it waited. Inside it, all of the movements of the pieces during previous games were recorded...

".........I see. So you were short a player and a commentator..."

"We're also short on black tea.
......Similarly with dried plums. Of course, I will find some."

"..................Okay. If you add on some mustard rice cakes, then we have a deal."

"The negotiations are concluded."

And Bernkastel is the one who is going to reveal it. But wait a minute,

"I have one condition."

"Oh, and what is that?"

"I'm going to be the Reader, right...?
.........I have no love, so a few things might be interpreted in an odd way.
......However, the Reader is free to read things in a manner and with an intonation of her choosing."

Do you remember that "Without love truth can't be seen" thing?
Isn't it strange for someone who doesn't have any love to reveal truth, which can't be seen without love?

"I only want to check the answers.
......I don't particularly care about the tale itself.
......I'm not deeply interested in what sort of tale you'll create.
............Ah, yes. Now I see what you're after."

"............Will you accept that condition?"

"Very well... I want to know the answer. You have your grudge to worry about. The negotiations are concluded."

Lol. It turns out Featherine doesn't have any love as well.

When Featherine snapped her fingers once more, ......a large chair appeared, as though beckoning Bernkastel to sit there.

It was horribly mismatched with the furnishings of this room......a throne.

"Wait, I've seen this before.
.........This is-"

"I acknowledge it. You may sit. You are the Game Master."

".........Are you sure?
......Are you really...sure...?"

"You can create whatever sort of tale you like to satisfy your grudge. I am not interested.

However, I have one condition as well.
......Answer all of the questions I ask for. No hiding, concealment or tricks."

"Heh, ......heheheheheheheheheh...! Leave it to me. Tearing apart the chest and ripping out the guts is my specialty.
......After all, you trained me."

So Featherine has literally granted Bernkastel authority to fuck up the story however she likes. And that includes of course even changing culprits and motives. And the only thing she asks to actually reveal are the solutions of specific twilights.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Then explain to me how Jessica, the true culprit who carries the whole weight of the crime, pulled off EP1, 2 and 3.

The first problem is that you are quoting here original Van Dine' rule, while red truth Van Dine's rule is much shorter and less specific.
The second problem is you asked a vague question. Are you asking how did she pull it off alone, or are you asking for a step-by-step instruction how each twilight was done.
If it's the first one then I don't claim that she does it alone(Shkannon also requires accomplices, and much more of them than in my theory actually), only that she is the mastermind and that she betrays her accomplices in the end.
If it's the second one then, well, I plan to do something like that one day, but before that I'll need to reread the whole Umineko from start to finish in one go, and that won't be anytime soon. But if you have some specific scenes in mind which can't be explained by Jessica+George+Rosa then I'll try to explain them.

Erika is not dead, she is a breathing human on the island, who ups the number by 1. This is even admitted by the opposition (Bern and Lambda) in EP5.
Lambda: Be at ease, Furudo Erika only increases the count by one person, the number of people present on this island apart from her is the exact same as in every other game so far.

But is it also confirmed for EP6? Most red truth's apply only on specific gameboards.

And by the way, this red truth reminded me of the scene where Erika gathers everybody on the island in one room, and observes both Shannon and Kanon in the same room.
Manga doesn't present it any differently.

The Japanese text says: 観音は朱志香の部屋で朱志香と共に死亡した, literally Kanon died jointly with Jessica in Jessica's room, with the と共に indicating that the action of "dying" is shared by them in the same moment.

Aren't you forcing the meaning here?
From what I can tell both "with" and "together with" are also translated to japanese as totomoni.

Then how was it possible that all the keys connected to that locked-room chain were inside the rooms? How then is it possible that Rosa was at the family conference that night...how was she able to sneak out unnoticed, commit the murders with all the keys being locked in the respective next room and yet be with her siblings in the dining hall again on the next morning?

Okay. I reread this part and you are right. She was with other relatives for the whole night so she couldn't kill or set up closed rooms. But she could forge an alibi.
My theory still holds if I change it a bit.
Both George and Jessica had an opportunity to do the murders and set up closed rooms, but they couldn't close the last one, so someone of them(most probably Jessica) has stayed hidden in parlor until relatives discovered Shannon's body. After that she returned to the guesthouse, and Rosa was forging alibi for her by saying that all of the cousins were sleeping in their room.
And red truth's that state that nobody exists in the six rooms except victims doesn't prevent Jessica from hiding because it was proclaimed after she has already left.

Kanon does not exist in any way in this guestroom. ...That regards, of course, all of it, the closet, the bedroom, the bathroom.
A dead Kanon does still exist as a dead Kanon.

Kanon doesn't exist, only his corpse exists in the closet. But Kanon and his corpse are not the same thing obviously.

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

It's not a deception. In the world of the cat box, they truly are different people, if only brought to life through a single body.

Okay. It seems that genders are a complicated topic which confuses people, so let me explain with something more understandable - Shannon's breasts.
Shannon's breasts can be either real or not real, and they can't be anything inbetween. If they are not real you could also say that they are an illusion or deception. You can't "bring them to life". Even if you act like they are real, and even if everyone accepts that they are real, they are still not real, even in a cat box or whatever.
And that leads us to 2 variants, either:
1.Shannon's breasts are not real, Battler fails to mention that they are not real when mentioning them, therefore Battler can present reader with false information if he himself believese it.
2.Shannon's breasts are real, therefore Shkannon is false.

It doesn't surprise me you think of it this way. It just comes off as incredibly desperate.

I don't see your point.

No, since the owner of the body is not a servant. The actual killer is not a servant, only her characters are.

The only way you can play a servant, while not being one, is in the theater or a movie.
However if you are dressing in servant clothes, do servant chores, execute servant orders, and receive servant payment from your masters, who think that you are their servant, that means you are a servant, even if you change your acting at the time.

Because I felt like it was obvious. Shannon and Kanon are not killers, Yasu is.

Knox's 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the STORY!
Yasu can't kill anyone, because he's not introduced early in the story.

Valid argument, though there's no hint or implication that she does.

There shouldn't be hints and implications. There should be possibilities supported by evidence.
Which Shkannotrice theory lacks in this twilight because it assumes that Shannon commited suicide with a gun, but evidence for that was never found. So it contradicts Knox's 8th.
And it also contradicts Will's solution for this twilight.

Only if you don't consider murderer and culprit to be the same in meaning.

I don't see how this changes anything.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

If we're talking Battler's inspection of Jessica's corpse in ep 4, she's definitely not lying down, let alone face down.
In the manga, she is also portrayed leaning against the wall. Facing into the room, of course.

Okay. In manga she is sitting in the corner of the room, with her crushed half of the face facing towards Battler, and her intact half facing towards wall. And in manga he covers her with a blanket instead of investigating, lol. And I also found something hilarious in manga. If you look at all of the bodies he finds in this chapter, all of them have a huge fucking pool of blood that leaked from the wound(except Maria who wasn't shot), which indicates that all of them were killed on those exact spots and not moved after death. But there is no pool of blood where this "corpse of Jessica" sits.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

...

I'll get to your post later.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Do you remember that "Without love truth can't be seen" thing?
Isn't it strange for someone who doesn't have any love to reveal truth, which can't be seen without love?

You're forgetting an important part here, there are things that can't be seen without love, but there are also things that become invisible due to love.

So Featherine has literally granted Bernkastel authority to fuck up the story however she likes. And that includes of course even changing culprits and motives. And the only thing she asks to actually reveal are the solutions of specific twilights.

Please show us where it says that
Featherine doesn't care about what kind of story she gets to read, but she still wants the answers, the questions Why, Who and How are always central to a mystery and changing those is like changing an equation. What you are basically saying is that EP7 is a lie and therefore unnecessary to the mystery story.
Van Dine 16. Nothing should be depicted in a story that exceeds the necessary. (EP8 Manga Vol.4)

If it's the first one then I don't claim that she does it alone(Shkannon also requires accomplices, and much more of them than in my theory actually), only that she is the mastermind and that she betrays her accomplices in the end.

You are moving the goalposts here. An accomplice is an assistant who helps the culprit orchestrate certain scenes, convince non-accomplices of something. An accomplice is NOT an independent murderer. As soon as you say that 3 people committed individual murders, with their individual goals in mind, then you cannot say that there is one true culprit.

But if you have some specific scenes in mind which can't be explained by Jessica+George+Rosa then I'll try to explain them.

Eva's and Hideyoshi's murder in EP1:
Rosa is dead (Concerning the unidentified corpses, all their identities are hereby guaranteed. (Regarding EP1, mentioned by Bern in EP4 ???) and George and Jessica are watched over by Natsuhi and Battler in the parlour.
Kanon's murder in EP1:
Rosa is dead (Concerning the unidentified corpses, all their identities are hereby guaranteed. (Regarding EP1, mentioned by Bern in EP4 ???) and George and Jessica are together with Battler and Natsuhi after checking the crime scene.
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo's murder in EP1:
Rosa is dead (Concerning the unidentified corpses, all their identities are hereby guaranteed. (Regarding EP1, mentioned by Bern in EP4 ???) and George and Jessica are together with Battler and Natsuhi in the study.
Natsuhi's murder in EP1:
Rosa is dead (Concerning the unidentified corpses, all their identities are hereby guaranteed. (Regarding EP1, mentioned by Bern in EP4 ???) and George and Jessica are together with Battler in the parlour.

Nanjo's murder in EP3:
Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, George, Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon are dead before Nanjo was killed!
Neither Jessica, nor Battler, nor Eva were the culprit who murdered Nanjo!
Nanjo was murdered!

But is it also confirmed for EP6? Most red truth's apply only on specific gameboards.

It is not mentioned otherwise, therefore there is no reason to doubt its applicability. Even more, it would be breaking the game if her status was changed without mentioning that it would be.

And by the way, this red truth reminded me of the scene where Erika gathers everybody on the island in one room, and observes both Shannon and Kanon in the same room.
Manga doesn't present it any differently.

This scene is narrated from Battler's perspective.
EP8 manga lets Erika recap the events:

...I gained certainty by looking at the game from outside as a witch in the abyss of nothingness and when I reconstructed the 5th game...
The parlor on the first day
When I noticed that the narration that “everybody had gathered” was from Battler's perspective – your perspective as a piece - I was surprised
Anyhow, to my perception as the detective Kanon was not in the parlor at that time, because I heard that he was in a hurry preparing a guestroom for the guest that was me
After I drifted ashore on the island X and Kanon always appeared seperately before me
At every chance they exchanged places
'X is in the kitchen right now' or 'Kanon is arranging the guestroom'
They gave each other alibis

Aren't you forcing the meaning here?
From what I can tell both "with" and "together with" are also translated to japanese as totomoni.

What you mean would be "He was together with Jessica in Jessica's room when he died", but the sentence reads "He died together with Jessica in Jessica's room". It is と共に死んだ not　と共にいて、死んだ.

But Kanon and his corpse are not the same thing obviously.

So, when it is convenient for you then body and name can be seperated?

The only way you can play a servant, while not being one, is in the theater or a movie.

In this setting she was a servant until she found the gold and succeeded Kinzo, she simply upheld the facade of nothing having changed. Going by your logic, the Queen of England would stop being the Queen of England if she pretended to be a commoner.

Knox's 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the STORY!
Yasu can't kill anyone, because he's not introduced early in the story.

EP1 contains, conversations about the fact that Shannon is not her true name and that Kanon's name is also false. It is mentioned that Beatrice is "the ruler of Rokkenjima during the night". Natsuhi and others mention the rumor of Kinzo having a secret lovechild with his mistress. Natsuhi's last words to the culprit are "I would have never imagined that something like you truly existed..."

Which Shkannotrice theory lacks in this twilight because it assumes that Shannon commited suicide with a gun, but evidence for that was never found. So it contradicts Knox's 8th.
And it also contradicts Will's solution for this twilight.

Well, apart from Ryukishi officially revealing the solution to that one way back in 2011 already:

Originally Posted by Answer to the Golden Witch

Ryuukishi: Because we have come so far, I think I can give you an answer, though it is basically the same trick as with the well. Shannon died face down, slumped over the makeup cabinet. It’s a really simple trick. You tie the weapon to a heavy object with a string, then you throw the heavy object behind the cabinet. And then it’s the classic trick, when you commit suicide, the gun is pulled behind the cabinet towards the heavy object.

[Levani]

There is this widespread opinion that 7th game is the one where we learn culprits real story.

It's not a widespread opinion, it's a fact that EP7 reveals the truth.

Do you remember that "Without love truth can't be seen" thing?
Isn't it strange for someone who doesn't have any love to reveal truth, which can't be seen without love?

Do you remember that Bernkastel can see some truth just because she has no love? Have you forgotten, in EP5, when she tells Battler that to her eyes there is just a lonely Natsuhi sitting alone and drinking tea, but with love, that scene adds a Beatrice? Her eyes will remove all these light hearted motives, because she has no love, she will not waste time trying to understand other people and their feelings. She wants a cold, objective truth. Understanding character motives will help you sympathize with the truth, but she doesn't want to do that.

And in fact, Bernkastel didn't reveal the truth, she doesn't know it. It's Willard. She calls a retired witch hunter, hands over the game-board to him and just observes.

So Featherine has literally granted Bernkastel authority to fuck up the story however she likes. And that includes of course even changing culprits and motives. And the only thing she asks to actually reveal are the solutions of specific twilights.

I don't see how you got to that conclusion. What Bernkastel did is that she took two worlds, smashed them into one, created a messy fragment, so it would be simpler to find the culprit.

Because that she has no love, she doesn't give a single crap about Beatrice, her heart, her motive. All she wants is to expose the truth right in front of her and humiliate her. That's her plan of vengeance.

Do you honestly think Bernkastel would come up with her own truth and she would have "won" against Beatrice this way?

[Mali]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I'm pretty sure blowing the hell out of a room counts as unsealing it.

I think it doesn't matter at that point. And it can be possible for a seal to stay unharmed. Evidence: Marias Jaw.

And let me say this:
Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. The rescuer opened the gate to the Golden Land and took everyone with him.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Mali

I wrote a theory for Kanon's disappearance. I don't use blue.

My idea: Instead of trying to move Kanon from the inside, why not change the guest room instead?

Well, if a bomb destroys the guest room it disappears and everything and everybody with it (Kanon and Erika). The game results show that Battler died. Possibly dying in this explosion?

What do you think about it?

Originally Posted by Mali

I think it doesn't matter at that point. And it can be possible for a seal to stay unharmed. Evidence: Marias Jaw.

What does the evidence of Maria's jaw mean?

Re the theory, I like it, and I don't think I've heard that theory before, but I don't think it can work. It hinges on the guest room no longer existing as the guest room, right? Thus meaning that Kanon no longer exists because both Kanon and the guest room no longer exist, bypassing the need for Kanon to have a body (whether living or dead)/the room to only have one means of exit (which was not used by Kanon).

There are a number of ways to approach this, but I think the clearest is the following:

Erika: The game ended while I was inside the guest room

But if there is no guest room and no Erika who can be said to exist inside the guest room, which is essential for the Kanon bomb theory, it should not be possible for that to be said in red.

Also, there is the matter of the seals.

The lock caused by the chain is intact.

this room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact

There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset.

So the seals on the door and window must still be intact. And the room is defined as a closed room.

There is also the definition of a closed room.

"Third. 'The definition of a closed room implies that all forms of interference that pass between the inside and outside of the room are PREVENTED'."
"Acknowledged. However, I won't deny the kinds of interference that you'd expect from a normal room, such as knocks, voices, and the extension telephone line."

So Battler, outside the room, probably couldn't die in the explosion, unless the explosion counts as the kind of interference expected from a normal room.

[Y Ddraig Goch]

With Battler reuniting with his loved ones at the end of the story and everybody who knows about what happened on the island keeping their mouths shut on the matter (what happens in the catbox, stays in the catbox I guess), is the metaversal side of the Umineko existent or was it all in Sayo and Battler's head?

[Levani]

Originally Posted by Reality Breaker 2.0

With Battler reuniting with his loved ones at the end of the story and everybody who knows about what happened on the island keeping their mouths shut on the matter (what happens in the catbox, stays in the catbox I guess), is the metaversal side of the Umineko existent or was it all in Sayo and Battler's head?

You mean the fantasy side, Bernkastel, Lambda, Senate and other demons?

I don't think they are fiction. I think the magical side of Umineko is very much real, however they are not allowed and also cannot interact with the real world. And if they do, it's just a mere illusion which can be explained with human tricks.

[TheSoreika]

Hi! I have been following and reading the Umineko forum for about a year now and just now made a profile. I am still reading and finding new information about Umineko everyday that makes me love the series even further. But let me cut to the chase...

I create youtube videos for my small channel and I want to create and indepth video on Umineko, that will take a while to create do to the mass amount of information. However, I am kind of confused on a few things, so any help would be awesome!

1. I understand that Yasu felt trapped in his current situation, but I am confused on why didn't he just get a sex change operation ( to either male or female whichever he feels comfortable with) to correct what happened to him? Is it because he was torn between his 3 identities?

2.Did Kyrie really love Rudolf? I remember (but I can not pinpoint where right now because I have the Visual Novels on my phone) that after Rosa killed Rudolf and was about to kill Kyrie she seemed kind of...."I do not care I am free" about it. I can not tell if she was putting on a brave face or if she was indifferent about his death.

3. Is Yasu REALLY a bad guy? Because, in my honest opinion, I do not think she is the big bad in the series. As shown episode 8 everyone was good people in a messed up situation that had a horrible result. I feel as if everyone (excluding the cousins to a certain degree) have done wrong in the past that kinda,in a strange way of thinking, had there deaths coming.

4. Did how they die matter? From my perspective it seems that the adults and servants died horrifically but the cousins did not (minus the time Rosa solved the epitaph). It made me feel as if Yasu felt the adults deserved a disgraceful and horrible death and the cousins should be handled more "gently"...except Jessica. She always seems to die with something happening to her face ( besides Episode I & II). This is me making a theory but, I think her face ends up disfigured in some way is the fact that Jessica interest in Kanon made her conflict more internally ( especially since he found out he was boy after being raised as a girl) about who to pick and felt resentment towards Jessica for making a difficult situation even more difficult.


I have other thoughts but.. I do not know exactly know how to put them in coherent words. I hope what I asked makes sense.. I do understand these are questions that are a matter of opinion. But I like getting another perspective on something, it makes you view things differently

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by Levani

You mean the fantasy side, Bernkastel, Lambda, Senate and other demons?

I don't think they are fiction. I think the magical side of Umineko is very much real, however they are not allowed and also cannot interact with the real world. And if they do, it's just a mere illusion which can be explained with human tricks.

I think the same. The characters appear in Higurashi and Higanbana anyway, so it'd be kind of stupid if it turned out ALL 07th Expansion works were Metafiction.

Originally Posted by TheSoreika

1. I understand that Yasu felt trapped in his current situation, but I am confused on why didn't he just get a sex change operation ( to either male or female whichever he feels comfortable with) to correct what happened to him? Is it because he was torn between his 3 identities?

Yasu wasn't just born into an uncomfortable body, she was effectively neutured. Not only was she unable to grow like a girl, she wouldn't be able to grow as a boy either, and has no chance of ever bearing children. The trauma wasn't just from her body, but also the revelation that she's the product of incest and rape, the horror of having her father die in front of her without explaining a thing, the fact that the people who she serves should really be indebted to her, and, worst of all, the realization that everyone she's ever loved is related to her by blood. In her eyes, her love and lust makes her no different than Kinzo, her disgusting, possibly murderous, pedophillic, incestual, rapist Father/Grandfather.

2.Did Kyrie really love Rudolf? I remember (but I can not pinpoint where right now because I have the Visual Novels on my phone) that after Rosa killed Rudolf and was about to kill Kyrie she seemed kind of...."I do not care I am free" about it. I can not tell if she was putting on a brave face or if she was indifferent about his death.

I interpreted this as Kyrie playing the role of the villain, trying to motivate Eva into keeping the fact that Ange's parents were brutal killers a secret. I just can't buy the idea that this woman, who previously confessed she was planning to kill over Rudolf, would be 100% fine with him dying.

3. Is Yasu REALLY a bad guy? Because, in my honest opinion, I do not think she is the big bad in the series. As shown episode 8 everyone was good people in a messed up situation that had a horrible result. I feel as if everyone (excluding the cousins to a certain degree) have done wrong in the past that kinda,in a strange way of thinking, had there deaths coming.

I believe she truly intended to kill her family, but never had the chance to go through with it. As you saw with Lion, in another life, she would have been a perfect person, and a cure to the family's woes. She only grew murderous intent after Kinzo revealed her lineage, and the life she could never ever live. Bernkastel is clearly meant to be the Big Bad, and, in a bout of ironic symbolism, so is the uncaring reader, who only cares about "solving the puzzle," and instead denies the story, characters, and heart of the tale!

4. Did how they die matter? From my perspective it seems that the adults and servants died horrifically but the cousins did not (minus the time Rosa solved the epitaph). It made me feel as if Yasu felt the adults deserved a disgraceful and horrible death and the cousins should be handled more "gently"...except Jessica. She always seems to die with something happening to her face ( besides Episode I & II). This is me making a theory but, I think her face ends up disfigured in some way is the fact that Jessica interest in Kanon made her conflict more internally ( especially since he found out he was boy after being raised as a girl) about who to pick and felt resentment towards Jessica for making a difficult situation even more difficult.

You're pretty much on the mark! She knew all the adults' dirty secrets, and despised each one of them. And, from what I've seen of CotGW, your analysis of Yasu and Jessica's connection is more than possible!


Please post a link when you've finished the video! It sounds interesting! (And a much better alternative to KNM's Umineko Explained rubbish.)

[Y Ddraig Goch]

Originally Posted by Levani

You mean the fantasy side, Bernkastel, Lambda, Senate and other demons?

I don't think they are fiction. I think the magical side of Umineko is very much real, however they are not allowed and also cannot interact with the real world. And if they do, it's just a mere illusion which can be explained with human tricks.

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

I think the same. The characters appear in Higurashi and Higanbana anyway, so it'd be kind of stupid if it turned out ALL 07th Expansion works were Metafiction.

What about the existence of Beatrice? Can she be counted as a completely different person (by the end of the series), despite originating from Sayo; going by the fantasy side's standards?

[Levani]

What about the existence of Beatrice? Can she be counted as a completely different person (by the end of the series), despite originating from Sayo; going by the fantasy side's standards?

Yes, because before Sayo, there still used to be Beatrice. Try to remember EP6, Chick Beato represents Yasu and big sister Beato represents the legend Yasu wants to become.

In the Meta World, she's a real, 100 year old witch. But you can erase her out of existence if you expose the truth that denies her legend in the real world.