[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

But what was Beatrice's plan if the window did not have truths unsealed? Even if that was the answer, she couldn't talk about it until Erika had Dlanor lift it.

So the question becomes, was Beatrice bluffing, or did she have a solution that didn't require the window? A bluff keeps Shkanon alive just fine (in fact, it strongly suggests it). A separate solution all but kills it (as Shannon would then be inside... but then, who left through the window?).

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Renall

But what was Beatrice's plan if the window did not have truths unsealed? Even if that was the answer, she couldn't talk about it until Erika had Dlanor lift it.

Unnecessary, because Beatrice wasn't the one who had to explain the whole deal, but Erika.
Remember, the only thing that got sealed was the possibility of using blue truth on the window of the next room over. However, that on itself, never prevented the actual fact of anyone using the window to escape.

The only way Beatrice would have lost was if Erika figured Shkanon out.

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Please...

People when you're making a theory about things like this there is one thing you must ask yourself.

Would any competent author write this?

Ask yourself that question three times. If it doesn't make sense with how the story has been written so far the third time you ask that question you can be sure that it's not going to happen that way.

I tried that, then I realised the most popular theory was a DID maid.

What dirty tricks did Lambda include in her game? The faked death has also been done by Beato, and if Shkanontrice's dead-but-not-dead is true, I'd consider that to far dirtier than Lambda's tactics.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Nanjo always did say he was bad at autopsy. Maybe he's just a terrible physician. Then again, if he were a really bad doctor, I guess he'd be used to people dying on him.

I still am not certain that he is a doctor.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

But...

Is Ryukishi a competent author?

I don't know how you define competent from a purely objective point of view. However as far as I know everyone here is ridiculously addicted to Umineko ever since any of us began to read it.

To me he is competent.

Shkanon cannot work with DID, DID doesn't spontaneously and conveniently occur enough to fit with Shkanon. Also with DID we'd get to see Shannon acting as Kanon sometimes and the opposites.

Now inherently, the "Shkanon trick" is not that uncommon in the end. A character being disguised as someone else, pretending to be someone else that is, is a plot device that is common, not even JUST in mystery stories. The only real problems of Shkanon are the following.

- Why doing so in the first place? (Luckily Kinzo can partially explain that, if not fully)
- Does anyone knows about Shkanon beside him/her self?
- How come did no one else noticed within 3 years?
- Is it relevant to the mystery/murder?

I'm sure anyone who gives it half a decent chance can find answers for everything, and easily, except for the third point. So at this point this is really the only real question left.

Now, is that a satisfying solution?
That depends. Personally if Shkanon explains everything and uses furniture death to be deathproof then no I will not be satisfied. There are a few problematics in the Shkanon theory tho that will be hard to accept no matter what if this is true.
- Fake body parts
- Fake relationship with George (if you have fake body parts and your lover doesn't know, yeah the relationship is fake in the end... unless he does know I guess)
- Lack of having any characters ever saying something like "Hey you two look alike so much you could be twins, no wonder you call each other sibblings" or any other sort of hints they actually look really alike. I mean this point specifically applies to George who shouldn't be possibly be fooled by a mere simple disguise as Kanon.
- The ambiguous and arbitrary (from Ryukishi's part) uses of words such as "people" and "human" without it having a very clear meaning being the only way to turn around the final red of arc 6.
- Can that resulting character really be something sympathetic for Battler?
- Can that resulting character really be something sympathetic for us readers?

Now is there possible satisfying solution for these problems? Who knows... I can think of some ideas that removes these problems but they seem to create bigger problem. The danger of trying to turn around that sort of point is that it usually results in creating utter nonsense. Same for turning too much around the red.

However you have to say, if somehow Ryukishi did find a satisfying solution about it, it'd be beyond amazing.

My small theory about faking death once satisfies me a lot more then Shkanon for now.

[rogerpepitone]

George and Shannon haven't even kissed. She could get away with fake body parts.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

George and Shannon haven't even kissed. She could get away with fake body parts.

Okinawa scenes show them hugging in such a way that fake body parts would have to be rather advanced.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Okinawa scenes show them hugging in such a way that fake body parts would have to be rather advanced.

Or George particularly ignorant I guess...

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Or George particularly ignorant I guess...

George: Her boobs seem fake... Oh well they're soft. Soft is good.


...I can see it happening.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Unnecessary, because Beatrice wasn't the one who had to explain the whole deal, but Erika.
Remember, the only thing that got sealed was the possibility of using blue truth on the window of the next room over. However, that on itself, never prevented the actual fact of anyone using the window to escape.

The only way Beatrice would have lost was if Erika figured Shkanon out.

Yes, but Erika just has to declare that "because the rooms were sealed, no one could leave either room!" If Shkanon is false, no problem; Beatrice just cackles, says she does not disagree, but Kanon escaped with magic anyway. If it's true, however, then we have the clear problem that Shannon is in the next room over. Kanon escapes from the cousins' room by not being there since he's Shannon instead, but she's still stuck there in the room. Beatrice could perhaps get around it by saying someone escaped using magic, at which point Erika must again lift the seal and discuss the window instead. But why is the window so important?

If anything, Beatrice is goading Erika into making a Shkanon argument, though she chooses to focus primarily on George for whatever reason. The only way such an argument could be made is to start talking about the broken window seal.

Beatrice very much wants Erika to start thinking about Kanon as being in the next room over instead and leaving through the window. She wants her to do this so badly that she tricks Erika into having Dlanor remove that seal on discussing the window. The question is, why? I can see a couple possibilities:

• The solution is Shkanon, so the window departure needs to be true; Beatrice will use wordplay to juggle Kanon's disappearance. Erika figures out the correct window solution, then gets beaten at the last moment by Beatrice's careful wordplay and bluffing skills.
• The solution is not Shkanon, but Beatrice wants Erika to think it is, so she starts focusing on the next room over and window solution (when in fact Kanon was able to be outside for some other reason). This naturally leads Erika into thinking about the people who were stated to be in the room, causing her to believe in Shkanon or Geornon or whatever, unseal discussion of the window (which is meaningless to Beato's own solution), and start rambling about that. Beatrice then shoots that down (though it could simply be a trick) and leaves Erika too unbalanced to figure out the final room trick, which is resolved through whatever method.

[ArcticHelm]

If someone really wants to focus on Shkanon, it is possible to think that George-Shannon and Jessica-Kanon was merely Beatrice's attempt to create a story for the cousins which didn't involve them living (or this case, dying) alone. This is less of a DID understanding and more of an attempt to create Sakutaro-like companions in an "environment" where they could never be falsified. One reason why I think this could be done is try to prevent for others, all the years of pain that Battler had put her through. Personally, I think this could be drawn out in several different ways in which one understands umineko.

Either way, Bern seems to be somewhat aware of this farce at the end of 6 and knows that this sort of "happy ending" can only be there because of the terrible tragedy. If there is no closed off Rokkenjima, there can be no golden land where everyone is happy. Thus like Zepar and Furfur mentioned, there can really only be one person which can receive this 'miracle'. I'm well aware plenty of people are very suspicious of this sort of interpretation, but I'm not so sure it's possible to knock it off the table of possibilities at this point.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

*snip*

There is somewhat of a bigger problem with the Shkanon considering that situation. Erika went about it in a roundabout manner but ultimately Shkanon would've been too easy to figure out for her. She was searching how Kanon could be in the next room over. She guessed there was something wrong with names. At that point it wouldn't have been much at all to say Someone in the next room over have more then one name, one of these names is Kanon basically what Battler said about Kinzo in arc 4... That would've been game over for the witch's side. Both room are as "open" as each other : One has a window seal's condition being unknown while the other has a hole in the time-sequence of the red allowing anyone/everyone to leave it before Erika sealed it.

From a trick, mistake, lure, taunt, trap POV, it's far more intelligent to leave something so open as the window's seal, ensuring that Erika would make her theories about it. Assuming Shkanon is false, then Beatrice had no problem. Anything Erika would say about the next room over or the people in it, she could deny it endlessly. This would make victory not simply something that hinges on Erika's formulation of her theory, but instead something somewhat certain.

[serverwolf]

Originally Posted by Geekodot

If this is correct then how did Kanon escape from the cousins room? It is a completely sealed room. He couldn't use the doors or the windows.

again with this shkanon-split personality theory!?
ok that IT! i wil completly counter it now
i worked really hard to find all the things here (3 hours!) so please dont ignore it, it will make me vary angry and sad.

last time i used the KNOX! however, it's seems that it didn't have effect.
now i will use something that most of the people dont use (they don't even bother)and its dosnt require red truth.
i will use that theory to counter itself!

for the split personality theory:

Spoiler:

this is explaneton of what is magic, by featherine. (it's long, there is short version under this spoiler if you are too lazy)

Spoiler:

magic can only do things that one can acomplish.
in other words, you can only have a magical result if it was something that could have been done without magic.
let's be clear.
there are two general types of magic.
if you summon giants... and make towers grow from the ground...
......but, when the lid is taken off, nothing has happened in the rose garden,
that's one type of magic.
that is just an 'illusion'.
its a 'lie' with no observers that takes place where the witch says it did,
in a location without any of the anit-magic toxin.
magic that doesn't have to match result is the most simple kind... a 'lie'. this is the same as worthless delusion, an illusion, a daydream.
even battler saw through it partway through the third game.
then, there is another kind, wich we might call true magic: 'magic that matches a result'.
the cup trick is an example of 'magic that matches result', since an observer actully checks to see that the cup's contents were empty before the candy appears, and thus an actual observer is gained.
unlike the magic of illusions, magic that matches result must follow one big rule.
the rule is... that only the unobserved process of what you accomplished can be transformed into magic.
in short, all forms of magic are tricks.

short version:

Spoiler:

magic have 2 types:
one is a 'lie', without an observer beside the witch,
and when you check what really happend, you find out that nothing happend there.
the fight between beatrice and vargilia is that kind of magic.

the second type is a 'trick', with an observer that didn't see all of what happend.
maria's candy cup magic, is that kind of magic.

and of course, once the observer know what really happend, the magic vanish.(look at the start of EP5 kinzo, for example)

shkanon is a split personality, 2 persons in 1 body.
however, the game show these 2 personalitis as a form of magic.
(after all, even if you have 2 personalitis, you only have 1 body)

Spoiler for picture:

this prove that the game show these 2 personalitys with 2 diffrent bodys.
in other words, it is a magic.
(after all, one body with one kind of clothe can't become 2 bodys with diffrent kinds of clothes in reality, right?)
at the moment i took the picture, kanon and shanon hade a converstation alone:
"shouldn't the guest room in the mansion be more then enough to hold the relatives?"
"good point. it is a pain to clean up here as well. .....even so, i like cleaning the guesthouse."
this converstation is a lie, an ilusion, a dydream. compleatly worthless creation of one of these two.

Spoiler for photo number 2:

in here, the magic have an observer, genji.
so unless genji is a 'witch' too (is with shanon and kanon) the magic become magic type number 2. "magic that matches a result" in other words, what happens here is, when genji dont look, shanon quickly dress as kanon, and then act like him, and the same the other way around.
however, the servent room is one room, if shanon who entered the room want to dress up as kanon, it will be needed for her to hide her self.
something that was not posibly at that moment since the converstation didn't have any delays in it.
(shanon)"....It's shanon. iv'e come back"
(genji)"hm... the log for today has not yet been filled out"
(shanon)"yes. i'll do that right away.
.....kanon-kun, thanks for keeping an eye out while i was gone"
(kanon)".......that was pretty long break"
genji was with them the all time. and he was shown with either kanon or shanon (without a moment of him by himself) and then he was shown with both.

Spoiler for number 3:

hideyoshi, rudolf, kirye, eva, maria, rosa, gohda and kanon were inside the parlor. i couldn't take shots of them all together so i just took kanon with gohda

nanjo entered the room
as well as natsuhi, krauss and genji...
and the moment we all waited for....

shanon apper with kumasawa and Erika.

now in this magic there are Alot more observers then least time.
hideyoshi, rudolf, kirye, eva, maria, rosa, ghoda, nanjo, natsuhi, krauss, genji, kumasawa, and Erika are all observers, unless of course all these 13 people are actully witches. (kihihihi, in the game they said so many times that if everyone belive the magic it will exist, however what happens when everyone see the truth of the magic? the more people the less posible for the magic to exist!)

now to the final blow

Spoiler for death of the theory!:

im sorry to say that however in here i will have to use the red to delete the devil proof. but i will use only one red.
natsuhi, hideyoshi, eva, kanon, george, jessica, nanjo,
these people are in the storehouse after the nostalgic first ever crime.
you probebly already know it but, Rudolf is dead, Kirye is dead, Krauss is dead, Rosa is dead, Ghoda is dead, Shanon is dead (she even have the diamond ring!... it was sad moment ).
they all are dead, inside the storehouse, with smashed faces.

like the last magic, i dont have a pic where kanon is with everyone... sorry.

ok its time for red
the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed
in other words, even if shanon's face is smashed, its shanon. she real, she really really real. she really was killed in the first crime. really! no devil proof is allowed in here. (p.s please dont disgrace her death anymore, it was one of the most sad thing that happend in the story.)

for the switch placese theory:

Spoiler:

in here there is no split personality and anything spaciel.
the only thing here is that shanon dressed as kanon acted as kanon.
and kanon dressed as shanon acted like shanon.
fairly simple theory.
in here i will use red (since its alredy 2 am in my country!)
At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!
The one who rescued Battler was, without a doubt, Kanon
The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!
let me explain.
even if shanon dress like kanon, she isn't kanon therfor she canno't use his name.
even if kanon have another name (cant remember it) kanon is his name too, there is no name trick in here.
(plus the red truth of A different person cannot claim his name! his is a male. shanon is not a he (unless you want to tell me she is a crossdresing guy -DON'T-)

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Or George particularly ignorant I guess...

Let's be fair, considering all the stuff he was babbling about in EP6, I don't think he knows the difference.

[UsagiTenpura]

I guess if anything it would explain why Beatrice made fun of Shannon's love with the idea of "when George would look at her body with lust".

[Moogleking]

The thing that has always killed me about Shkannon is that you don't need them to be the same person to solve anything. You can just say they're both working together, which is actually much more reasonable.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

There is somewhat of a bigger problem with the Shkanon considering that situation. Erika went about it in a roundabout manner but ultimately Shkanon would've been too easy to figure out for her. She was searching how Kanon could be in the next room over. She guessed there was something wrong with names. At that point it wouldn't have been much at all to say Someone in the next room over have more then one name, one of these names is Kanon basically what Battler said about Kinzo in arc 4... That would've been game over for the witch's side. Both room are as "open" as each other : One has a window seal's condition being unknown while the other has a hole in the time-sequence of the red allowing anyone/everyone to leave it before Erika sealed it.

From a trick, mistake, lure, taunt, trap POV, it's far more intelligent to leave something so open as the window's seal, ensuring that Erika would make her theories about it. Assuming Shkanon is false, then Beatrice had no problem. Anything Erika would say about the next room over or the people in it, she could deny it endlessly. This would make victory not simply something that hinges on Erika's formulation of her theory, but instead something somewhat certain.

That's a pretty brilliant explanation for what Beatrice was trying to do there, and really explains why Shkannon was hinted at SO much, but isn't actually true.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yes, but Erika just has to declare that "because the rooms were sealed, no one could leave either room!" If Shkanon is false, no problem; Beatrice just cackles, says she does not disagree, but Kanon escaped with magic anyway. If it's true, however, then we have the clear problem that Shannon is in the next room over. Kanon escapes from the cousins' room by not being there since he's Shannon instead, but she's still stuck there in the room. Beatrice could perhaps get around it by saying someone escaped using magic, at which point Erika must again lift the seal and discuss the window instead. But why is the window so important?

The problem is that, if Erika declares that, then she's shooting herself in the foot, since she's the one who has to explain this closed room. Now, when:

- Kanon saves Battler
- Kanon was supposed to be in the cousins' room
- The cousins' room is a perfect closed room
- Erika and Battler are in the guest room
- Erika herself killed Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria and Natsuhi.
- Shannon, Nanjo, Kumasawa, George and Hideyoshi are in the next room over
- Everyone else is in the cousins' room

Erika has no really room for theorising. If you remember, Erika reached a point in which she was unable to keep on theorising, until Beatrice allowed her to theorise on the next room over, and then Erika had Dlanor eliminate the rule that forbade theories on that window, because other than that room, she had no longer anything else to theorise on.

The window is unnecessary, because Beatrice wasn't supposed to solve that closed room. Remember, Featherine said that the closed room was impossible to solve to whoever had the burden of explaining it. This is why Kanon told Beatrice she shouldn't focus on solving the room. That wasn't her role. Her role was to create closed rooms. That's what she does. (This is, at the same time, a big hint to us, due to chessboard thinking.)

Now, how does the trick work? Kanon was supposed to be in the cousins' room. The cousins' room was perfectly sealed. Thus, no windows were used. If Kanon was there, then there's no way he could have helped Battler. However, he did. Now, if we check the 7 premises I listed before, then Erika had no other choice but to resort to the possibility that the window in the next room over had been used. However, when she was told the names of the people who were in that room, Kanon wasn't amongst them. Erika tried to theorise about the possibility of Kanon sharing the name of one of the people in that room, but that much was denied. She was also told that, other than the 5 people mentioned, no one else was in that room. So, Kanon couldn't possibility have been there. Thus, an "illusion" was created, since someone who shouldn't have been able to help Battler, helped him.

Now, why is the window important? Because it prevents the existence of a logic error. How? By making the guest room solvable.

Originally Posted by Renall

Beatrice very much wants Erika to start thinking about Kanon as being in the next room over instead and leaving through the window. She wants her to do this so badly that she tricks Erika into having Dlanor remove that seal on discussing the window. The question is, why? I can see a couple possibilities:

• The solution is Shkanon, so the window departure needs to be true; Beatrice will use wordplay to juggle Kanon's disappearance. Erika figures out the correct window solution, then gets beaten at the last moment by Beatrice's careful wordplay and bluffing skills.
• The solution is not Shkanon, but Beatrice wants Erika to think it is, so she starts focusing on the next room over and window solution (when in fact Kanon was able to be outside for some other reason). This naturally leads Erika into thinking about the people who were stated to be in the room, causing her to believe in Shkanon or Geornon or whatever, unseal discussion of the window (which is meaningless to Beato's own solution), and start rambling about that. Beatrice then shoots that down (though it could simply be a trick) and leaves Erika too unbalanced to figure out the final room trick, which is resolved through whatever method.

Yes, pretty much.
The problem with a non-Shkanon theory is that you'd have to deal with the "Everyone else" for the cousins' room, since we pretty much know the location of all people. Basically, the only room available would be if Kanon shared the name as one of 6 "victims". But even that'd be difficult, since we got a number for them.

[Oliver]

So what if there's simply more than one Kanon?

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by Used Can

The problem with a non-Shkanon theory is that you'd have to deal with the "Everyone else" for the cousins' room, since we pretty much know the location of all people. Basically, the only room available would be if Kanon shared the name as one of 6 "victims". But even that'd be difficult, since we got a number for them.

Thing is, Shkannon theory has this same problem. Erika herself must be in the cousins' room as well.

I think we can all agree that Kanon was never in the cousins' room to begin with, and neither was Erika. Even though supposedly both should be included in "everyone else".

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

The thing that has always killed me about Shkannon is that you don't need them to be the same person to solve anything. You can just say they're both working together, which is actually much more reasonable.

That's a pretty brilliant explanation for what Beatrice was trying to do there, and really explains why Shkannon was hinted at SO much, but isn't actually true.

Thanks! I also agree with the first point. I mean there's plenty of ways they can be associated together beside being the one person, and most of these would probably be more reasonable.

Originally Posted by Used Can

The problem with a non-Shkanon theory is that you'd have to deal with the "Everyone else" for the cousins' room, since we pretty much know the location of all people.

I put stuff in my signature one of them should explain that.

Originally Posted by Oliver

So what if there's simply more than one Kanon?

Oh no.... Then how about Everyone has their own names and also everyone else's, this includes Kinzo, Erika, Beatrice, and even the other names of Shannon and Kanon of Yoshiya and Sayo.