[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by Bluemail

The year is the same suprisingly, and it would fit somehow... But it actually erupted in November 1986, not on October 5th-6th. So I guess it doesn't work after all.

And about Rosa being alive, what I've she became a mystery writer, in other words, Hachijou is actually Rosa. They do share a similar hair style. And if Rosa indeed escaped in Episode 2, it fits with Hachijou writing the stories of Episodes after that. Would this mean that Ange-Beatrice is actually in the world after Episode 2? Eva isn't supposed to be alive anymore then...
It could be a world that has come through yet as Oliver said. I haven't actually read EP6, but I read that Ange is confronted by some kind of 'impossible memories'? Maybe she visited EP2's world... But it sounds too far-fetched.

I didn't say that Rosa was alive.
She broke her ankle and died with Maria, burned to death, and went to hell.
Maybe Maria's jaw was stuck on a rock.
For "impossible memories", I guess it's Featherine that is messing around.
She is a legendary witch, after all.

But that volcano theory is a bit...to easy...and...

If a riddle is not hard, there is no point to it.
(what's with this hint ? it's a bit strange, maybe it means that the statement with "·······" above them are the true tips (I always thought it was accentuated sentences)

Also...hasn't Rule X been clearly said in EP1 ? And clearly raped in EP6 with featherine ? Do you get it ? No ? I mean THAT :

Spoiler for X:

(Bring the Fate is awesome, isn't it ?)

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by DgBarca

Also...hasn't Rule X been clearly said in EP1 ? And clearly raped in EP6 with featherine ? Do you get it ? No ? I mean THAT :

Spoiler for X:

(Bring the Fate is awesome, isn't it ?)

Is this from the end role of episode 1? Are there others like this for Y and Z?

Heh... this pic makes me think that even 1 and 2 may be unreliable takes on what really happened.

Here's a pic I found.

Spoiler for No Dine no Knox no Fair:

[Realus]

Wasn't that roman numeral "10"?
Not really letter/variable "X"?

Edit: Hm, I guess so. Replayed the ending to confirm or not, and yeah I guess I just remembered it as showing up later, and had a false memory of roman numerals 1~9 showing up.

*As an effort to make 10 make sense*
10th Twilight, the cousins reached it.
They saw the banquet, went to the Golden Land, and were the only ones who could tell the tale.

I guess X would make sense as well though.

[DgBarca]

10 ? And why would a 10 show up now ?
Rule X could be "Those who came after have no way to tell the truth". But 10...I don't see something with 10...
Also, from several OP :

Spoiler for OP:

Hideyoshi, watching a sort a film with George and a little Battler in the rose garden? I guess there is a head in the bottom...Eva's ?
It sounds like the sin of 6 years. But Hideyoshi WTH !

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Except she isn't in Ep1 and 2. In Ep2, she's shown to have had no idea that Rudolf was in debt at all.

Interesting, that.

Actually, I can't believe that. What she says in EP 5 to Rudolf seems to almost contradict that.

Spoiler for screencaps and size:

So here's the first cap of them from EP 2, when Kyrie says she wasn't aware of their debt.



Now this makes sense at the time since Rudolf probably didn't want to burden Kyrie with his own mess, which she usually ends up cleaning in the end.


But take a look at these caps, which happen pre-Oct 4 1986. The first cap is her line and the second cap follows Kyrie and then Rudolf.




Now if the understanding that all events prior to the conference remain stagnant then this means Kyrie knows very well that everyone is trying to get money and that they're going to potentially black mail him to get it.

It could be possible that Kyrie wasn't aware of Rudolf's lawsuit, but that means that they should have other financial problems besides that.

Originally Posted by DgBarca

10 ? And why would a 10 show up now ?
Rule X could be "Those who came after have no way to tell the truth". But 10...I don't see something with 10...
Also, from several OP :

Spoiler for OP:

Hideyoshi, watching a sort a film with George and a little Battler in the rose garden? I guess there is a head in the bottom...Eva's ?
It sounds like the sin of 6 years. But Hideyoshi WTH !

We talked about this a while ago: this is from the EP 1 shed scene, when Hideyoshi finds Shannon and blocks her from George. The outline of the figure on the ground is Shannon.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by DgBarca

10 ? And why would a 10 show up now ?
Rule X could be "Those who came after have no way to tell the truth". But 10...I don't see something with 10...
Also, from several OP :

Spoiler for OP:

Hideyoshi, watching a sort a film with George and a little Battler in the rose garden? I guess there is a head in the bottom...Eva's ?
It sounds like the sin of 6 years. But Hideyoshi WTH !

Actually that pic is of Hideyoshi when he was in the shed in episode 1. Though I see why you might think that was a movie screen.

Also the thing at the bottom is clearly Shannon's maid hat.

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Actually that pic is of Hideyoshi when he was in the shed in episode 1. Though I see why you might think that was a movie screen.

Battler is little here...and...it's bright outside.
He isn't kneeling is this scene ? Oh...I missed that maybe...

[Marion]

Originally Posted by DgBarca

Battler is little here...and...it's bright outside.
He isn't keeling is this scene ? Or...I missed that maybe...

Perspective. The view seems to be from the back of the shed, most likely to display everything in sight. And it's not really bright it's just that shed is dark, so the light comes out.

And these are Ryukishi's sprites, so don't expect any fancy kneeling on the ground pictures. You just have to settle for Battler crying with his hand in his pocket.

[Renall]

The difference between the faking theories before ep5-6 and the faking theories after is that prior to ep5, people were suggesting the FTs were actually faked, and that people weren't dead. Very few people think the FTs in 1-4 have many - or any - survivors, but the idea is to reverse the assumption of the murders.

That is, before we believed: The FT victims were killed, and the killer posed them in bizarre and theatrical situations.

Now we believe: The FT victims were in a bizarre theatrical situation, and that was when the killer killed them.

The distinction is obvious; we have gone from asking why there is a theatrical killer to asking why there might be a group of theatrical non-killers, and who among them is becoming the actual killer. And while it may seem ridiculous, twice now in Chiru it seems entirely clear that there is exactly such a faction, and the characters most likely to number in that faction are not strong murder suspects and even potentially excluded in red.

RANDOM THOUGHT OF THE DAY: Is the golden brooch that can give the magic of love and happiness the gold itself? Did both Shannon and Kanon solve the epitaph, but are uncertain what to do with it? Do they come into conflict over the use of the gold? Remember, just because you "have no use for" money doesn't mean you can't disagree on how that money should be used...

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Marion

Actually, I can't believe that. What she says in EP 5 to Rudolf seems to almost contradict that.

Exactly. And if Ep1 and 2 are the more reliable sources (due to being written by 'Maria' rather than Hachijou), then we can assume that the opening of Ep5 is the more false of the two scenes.

And if that part of the Ep5 opening is false... why couldn't all of it be?

[DgBarca]

For the OP of EP4...
The bomb theory has its root here ? Because :

Spoiler for Massive Bomb Ownage:

Isn't that clear proof ? And...doesn't the thing near Battler looks like ADN ?
The thing here is that it began to burn BEFORE the explosion.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Exactly. And if Ep1 and 2 are the more reliable sources (due to being written by 'Maria' rather than Hachijou), then we can assume that the opening of Ep5 is the more false of the two scenes.

And if that part of the Ep5 opening is false... why couldn't all of it be?

There's no point in trolling us with a bunch of fake scenes prior to October 4th in EP 5.

And "Maria" didn't really write the story like Hachijou did. Only thing "Maria" did was write the endroll which normally appears, along with her message in EP 1. So the EP 2 scene with them talking about everything inside a guest room can easily be false as well.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Marion

Actually, I can't believe that. What she says in EP 5 to Rudolf seems to almost contradict that.

Spoiler for screencaps and size:

So here's the first cap of them from EP 2, when Kyrie says she wasn't aware of their debt.

Now this makes sense at the time since Rudolf probably didn't want to burden Kyrie with his own mess, which she usually ends up cleaning in the end.

It could be possible that Kyrie wasn't aware of Rudolf's lawsuit, but that means that they should have other financial problems besides that.

Question. Were the other adults around Kyrie and Rudolf at the time? It's possible that Kyrie is just acting, and that she really does know about the anti-Krauss plan. Would there be a motive for her to hide that from the other adults?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

Question. Were the other adults around Kyrie and Rudolf at the time? It's possible that Kyrie is just acting, and that she really does know about the anti-Krauss plan. Would there be a motive for her to hide that from the other adults?

Yes - the EP 2 cap comes from the scene where Eva, Rudolf, Kyrie and Hideyoshi are all together talking about the "Beatrice" that Kyrie say earlier. Rosa is with Maria out in the hall and Krauss and Natsuhi are somewhere unseen (most likely thinking of ways to convince the others about Kinzo). Kyrie is aware of the anti-Krauss plan, it just seems that she wasn't completely aware of their own financial problems.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Marion

There's no point in trolling us with a bunch of fake scenes prior to October 4th in EP 5.

Why? Why isn't there a point in lying to us? Don't forget who's running that game and for what purpose she was showing those scenes.

It's not just the thing with Kyrie. Notice the discrepancy in Krauss's behaviour between Ep1 and Ep5... in Ep1, he's clearly far smarter than he looks, whereas in Ep5...

Originally Posted by Marion

And "Maria" didn't really write the story like Hachijou did. Only thing "Maria" did was write the endroll which normally appears, along with her message in EP 1. So the EP 2 scene with them talking about everything inside a guest room can easily be false as well.

Er, no. "Maria" wrote the entirety of both Ep1 and Ep2. This is stated in both Ep4 and Ep6. I'm not quite sure how you missed it. That Witch-Hunt professor even says how the message bottles told stories of witches and demons... furthermore, Hachijou couldn't have solved the mystery with just the endrolls alone.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Why? Why isn't there a point in lying to us? Don't forget who's running that game and for what purpose she was showing those scenes.

It's not just the thing with Kyrie. Notice the discrepancy in Krauss's behaviour between Ep1 and Ep5... in Ep1, he's clearly far smarter than he looks, whereas in Ep5...

I don't think Krauss is stupid. He just had a bad lapse in judgment and got scammed. A lot of people get scammed, but it doesn't make them stupid. Krauss wants to impress Kinzo, who he never felt good enough for, and show to his siblings that he's the most superior. That got to his head and he did what he did. Was it a bad lapse in judgment - absolutely. But it doesn't make Krauss an idiot. I doubt Kinzo would trust the headship to him if that was the case.

But if you're going to question the pre-Oct 4 1986 scenes then you might as well question all of EP 2's beginning as well, among other things. Lambdadelta, Beatrice or any game master can't manipulate things that happen before the start of the game or things after the game. If they could then let's just go ahead and question the entirety of 1998 as well. It doesn't make sense for them to manipulate areas of time outside the gameboard.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Er, no. "Maria" wrote the entirety of both Ep1 and Ep2. This is stated in both Ep4 and Ep6. I'm not quite sure how you missed it. That Witch-Hunt professor even says how the message bottles told stories of witches and demons... furthermore, Hachijou couldn't have solved the mystery with just the endrolls alone.

I doubt that those wine bottles could hold a crap load of pages describing every detail of EP 1 and 2. In EP 6 Hachijou says that a lot of readers don't like her books because she added the fantasy elements. But if EP 1 and 2 were fully available word for word then why should they be angry at the fact that she's including fantasy elements in her version of the truth? Maria's letters for EP 2 also had that fantasy stuff included, so they should be okay with the addition of fantasy since it follows the original formula.

The letters are the endrolls and some details about the events of the game that occurred. Not every detail spelled out. Besides, we don't if Hachijou's answer is the correct answer - it is simply an answer, such as the answer Erika made in EP 5 and the one Beatrice and Battler found.

Anyways I can't access my EP 1-4 game right now (different computer than the usual) so if you have a screencap of this then please show me it.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Marion

But it doesn't make Krauss an idiot.

MOON. TOURISM.

Originally Posted by Marion

But if you're going to question the pre-Oct 4 1986 scenes then you might as well question all of EP 2's beginning as well, among other things.

...Why WOULDN'T I question Ep2's beginning? If you believe in Shkanon, you automatically have to question it. Furthermore, given George's personality, I doubt his relationship with Shannon is as happy-happy as presented.

Originally Posted by Marion

The letters are the endrolls and some details about the events of the game that occurred. Not every detail spelled out. Besides, we don't if Hachijou's answer is the correct answer - it is simply an answer, such as the answer Erika made in EP 5 and the one Beatrice and Battler found.

Hachijou wouldn't be able to write about the games if she didn't know the answer.

Originally Posted by Marion

Anyways I can't access my EP 1-4 game right now (different computer than the usual) so if you have a screencap of this then please show me it.

I don't have a screencap on hand, no, but I'm sure that somebody does. Also, I seem to remember the anime going into a bit more detail... it was there that we confirmed that the first bottle letter was about Ep1.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

MOON. TOURISM.

Again, he was scammed. People get scammed all the time, because scammers promise them something they want or need.

...Why WOULDN'T I question Ep2's beginning? If you believe in Shkanon, you automatically have to question it. Furthermore, given George's personality, I doubt his relationship with Shannon is as happy-happy as presented.

If you're saying George's relationship with Shannon is more horrible than it really is, then you might as well say the same about Rudolf and Kyrie's relationship. George and Kyrie are both possessive over the people they love for sure, but I genuinely can't believe that they don't cherish their significant other. And considering EP 6 with George and Shannon winning the twins challenge it's pretty much given that George and Shannon do love each other and it isn't a fake relationship.

George loves Shannon and wants to treat her properly. If he didn't care about her so much then he wouldn't have picked the 3rd option.

Hachijou wouldn't be able to write about the games if she didn't know the answer.

She knows a answer. There are multiple ways to answer this game. If there wasn't then many plausible theories wouldn't be able to exist at the same time, since there would only be one exact answer.

EP 5's normal ending is a perfect example of this - Erika and Bern are able to weave this entire story about Natsuhi being the culprit. It is considered an acceptable answer at the given time because of it's conditions (Kinzo not being dead from a proven detective standpoint, 1st twilight people are dead, etc) and agreeing with Knox. But when Battler confirms Kinzo's corpse using gold and has red about the 1st twilight then Erika's answer is no longer acceptable. She changes it and Bern says then it is acceptable. The fact that Erika's answer =/= Beatrice's answer means that there can be multiple answers.

We don't know if Hachijou's answer is the same as Beatrice's answer right now. All we know is that she has found a possible answer.

I don't have a screencap on hand, no, but I'm sure that somebody does. Also, I seem to remember the anime going into a bit more detail... it was there that we confirmed that the first bottle letter was about Ep1.

I know that the bottle letters have detail about the games. But I doubt they have word for word exact details. A summary would be more reasonable.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Marion

Again, he was scammed. People get scammed all the time, because scammers promise them something they want or need.

No one who is clever enough to reverse-blackmail his siblings when he doesn't have a leg to stand on is dumb enough to fall for moon tourism.

Originally Posted by Marion

If you're saying George's relationship with Shannon is more horrible than it really is, then you might as well say the same about Rudolf and Kyrie's relationship. George and Kyrie are both possessive over the people they love for sure, but I genuinely can't believe that they don't cherish their significant other. And considering EP 6 with George and Shannon winning the twins challenge it's pretty much given that George and Shannon do love each other and it isn't a fake relationship.

George loves Shannon and wants to treat her properly. If he didn't care about her so much then he wouldn't have picked the 3rd option.

Both George and Kyrie are unpleasant, jealous, and possessive. I just can't see anyone like that in a 'happy' relationship, and given the things that Kyrie says, I'm pretty sure that she isn't.

Originally Posted by Marion

She knows a answer. There are multiple ways to answer this game. If there wasn't then many plausible theories wouldn't be able to exist at the same time, since there would only be one exact answer.

If Hachijou's answer isn't the "right" answer, then every game other than Ep1 and 2 are completely worthless. I don't think that's true.

And while you can say that there are "multiple truths", etc, there is only one 'Answer'.

Originally Posted by Marion

I know that the bottle letters have detail about the games. But I doubt they have word for word exact details. A summary would be more reasonable.

What the bottle letters and Hachijou are supposed to do is give a "real-world" explanation for what the events of the games actually are. If 'Maria's' letters were only summaries, they'd be useless as such. And again, how do you expect Hachijou to figure out everything from just that? There's so many little details and in Ep1 (some of which obviously prompted Hachijou's later writings) that a summary would be impossible.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

No one who is clever enough to reverse-blackmail his siblings when he doesn't have a leg to stand on is dumb enough to fall for moon tourism.

It's not as much reverse blackmailing as it is finding out their own fiancial affairs and firing them back. He pretty much admits there that he has no money as well. Again, not everyone who gets scammed is an idiot and calling Krauss an idiot isn't accurate. Is he incompetent to some point - sure. But he's not a complete moron, it's just that he lacks street smarts.

Both George and Kyrie are unpleasant, jealous, and possessive. I just can't see anyone like that in a 'happy' relationship, and given the things that Kyrie says, I'm pretty sure that she isn't.

George isn't really that jealous - he was before, but Shannon pretty much assures him that she doesn't like Battler in that way (at least not anymore). And if Kyrie wasn't happy with Rudolf then she wouldn't have stuck around for as long as she did. And you can't say Rudolf doesn't love her either, otherwise there's no way he would have cried as much as he did in EP 6 when he believes her and Battler to be dead.

If Hachijou's answer isn't the "right" answer, then every game other than Ep1 and 2 are completely worthless. I don't think that's true.

And while you can say that there are "multiple truths", etc, there is only one 'Answer'.

This I have to disagree because I firmly believe that Featherinne made Hachijou, rather than the other way around. The other way around would be similar to how Maria made Sakutaro, the person Battler made the promise to made Beatrice, Kumasawa making Virgilia and etc. But Featherinne states that she views the kakera and writes under Hachijou (which is stated to be just another name she uses as well) about what she sees. So her answer to the mystery can very well be different from Beatrice, but uses the same context of the story.

What the bottle letters and Hachijou are supposed to do is give a "real-world" explanation for what the events of the games actually are. If 'Maria's' letters were only summaries, they'd be useless as such. And again, how do you expect Hachijou to figure out everything from just that? There's so many little details and in Ep1 (some of which obviously prompted Hachijou's later writings) that a summary would be impossible.

So you're saying that "Maria" wrote out exactly what happened, before it even happened. Because writing a word for word account on what happened would be pretty hard since everyone on the island dies. Not to mention stuffing so many papers into just a small wine bottle. I'm not saying it needs to be a short summary, but if it outlines enough then it's possible. Not everything in EP 1 and 2 needs to be used to solve the mystery after all.