[Manga] Will Itachi really lose to Sasuke

[tatami]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

1) then unless you can show that he beat 100 no names, it might be 50 for that matter or maybe 20, or maybe even 10.

2) You said Sasuke surpassed it when refering to the Kyubi chakra. I figured you were saying the same thing hunter said earlier. If not my apologies, but then please clear up what you were trying to say.

3) Didn't see sai even mention that Sasuke's jitsu was over powering. Where did you get that from?

Far as Ero-Senn1n I'm going to reply to that later, but right now I've got something to do that will hold me up for about an hour. But the first part of your comment, when did I even say Sasuke killed 1000 no names?

1) chap 343 page 02 sasuke and countless nameless shinobi.




2) clear up: naruto was not able to use kyubi chakra cuz he didnt want it and sasuke surpassed it.

3) from the manga chapter 306 page 04 and 05 .sai said it himself.





i didnt said he killed them but beat them.

[That Other Ninja]

I think Tatami means "suppressed" when he's says "surpassed".

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

Sorry kind of hard to buy such a pathetic excuse, when your grasping for straws here. Trying to find anything that would make sence to redeem precious Sasuke.

Not only was that one hell of a gamble to begin with, since it's highly improbable that he could avoid every single major artery while slicing his sword through a person's side. He then was going to stab Sakura, but didn't because Yamato tried to parry that sword of his. Instead causing Yamato to get stabbed on the left side of his chest, slightly above where the heart is located. Best illistration is at the top of page 9 chapter 308.

So let's see, 3 different people had attempted to stop Sasuke from trying to kill someone. First Sai, saved Naruto. Yamato saved Sakura after he saw the look in Sasuke's eyes, when Sasuke went to attack Sakura, only for Yamato to end up getting hit himself. And then even Orochimaru told Sasuke to back off.

But what am I saying it was all an act, precious Sasuke could never do anything wrong ever, he is just so talented & calculated he fooled us all with his amazing act right? God damn I hate fanboy logic.

I think this is way off topic lol Yamato was hit, but the surprise on Sasuke's face when a piece of wood juts out showing that his attack was indeed blocked was just classic. Anyways from what I gather is that we're talking about Sasuke's redemption (which probably will happen as that's one of the reason they're bringing Sasuke back) In the modified words of Neji...Only Naruto will save Sasuke from the darkness. The thing is we're not 100% sure if Sasuke was planning to kill Naruto or just trying to wound Naruto just to stop him. You actually see mixed things in Naruto from Sasuke. For one in this he claimed he let Naruto live on a whim, but at the same token when Sasuke revisits the bridge he's clearly thinking about the mission with Naruto and Sakura. Not to mention he recognized Naruto before going to Oro. Sasuke isn't evil...he's the stereotypical anti-hero...i.e. Punisher...Wolverine. The question is how will Sasuke defeat Itachi on this newest confrontation, when he admitted that Oro. was stronger than him and only lost, because he was in a weakend state and if Oro. is stronger than him and Itachi is stronger than Oro. I just do not see the upcoming fight as one except for learning more about the Uchihas and the Sharingan.

[Naotaka]

Originally Posted by tatami

1) chap 343 page 02 sasuke and countless nameless shinobi.




2) clear up: naruto was not able to use kyubi chakra cuz he didnt want it and sasuke surpassed it.

3) from the manga chapter 306 page 04 and 05 .sai said it himself.





i didnt said he killed them but beat them.

1) Nice. I won't bother getting into what level ninja they were, but yes it does show an amazing talent at such a young age, that which even surpassed Orochimaru when he was Sasuke's age.

2) We agree on the first part of this. But is there a difference in surpassed it & supressed it? Just trying to clear this up before it gets more confusing?

3) Ok. Not sure what exactly happened there. Sai entered his Sasuke's room they exchanged a few words, all of a sudden the room blew up, and then Sai said that.

4) That last comment was for EroSenn1n. Not for you. Unless you were also telling him that you said "Sasuke beat ninjas not killed them"

Anyways while I definetly command you on a good job getting those pages out. There are still 2 things to keep in mind, and I'm putting this to rest one way or another.

1) Sasuke is talented no doubt about that. However so are the other main characters.

2) The most important part. The theories.

It started with someone saying well Sasuke didn't want to kill his team, it was just an act. Myself and a few others said BS we have evidance to prove it otherwise.

The saving grace that has carried this convo to this point is you saying that Sasuke could of killed them all if he wanted too so he isn't evil, bla bal bla. And now this is where the rest of the Sasuke theories fail:

The idea that Sasuke could of killed his old team mates & the rest of team Kakashi if he wanted to is only opinion as there is no absolute proof on that matter. He may infact be stronger then any one of them 1 on 1 at that point at time. Though I don't think he is better then Yamato but even if he was. Orochimaru & his puppet didn't seem to want to get involved into the fight.

There is really no evidance at all that prove that Sasuke could of ended up killing them all. Hence with out proof all you have is speculations and opinion.

However there is proof that Sasuke in fact did assault them all, and with a deadly weapon, stating he was going to kill them. And with that said, I am done on this topic. You guys can feel free to hold your own opinion, but the fact of that matter is, it still doesn't match the actions of what actually happened, and there for will only continue to be an opinion of yours.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

- Sasuke didn't kill 1000 noname grunts, he actually did not kill even one of them, why would he want to kill former teammates (including Sakura, whom he said "thanks" before he left Konoha) when he didn't kill some shitty unnamed ninja
- Sasuke did destroy Oro's organization and freed the test subjects
- Sasuke ordered to the 3 under his command to not kill anyone
- Sasuke didn't tell Orochimaru about MS and how to obtain it, otherwise Orochimaru would allow him to kill Naruto, not only allow but even order him to do so. Sasuke lied to Oro about the sharingan not telling about MS, also Sasuke didn't tell Orochimaru about his full power, it's clear that Sasuke was lying to Orochimaru the whole time, and that situation with the Konoha team was not a exception.
- Sasuke knowing that he can get MS by killing Naruto, but never tried to kill Naruto (after that first time in the valley of the end, when he went CS1 and was quite psycho in the heat of the battle and because of all the rivalry)
- Sasuke didn't kill Sai when Sai attacked him in his room, we know that Sai decided not to kill him but capture him instead (because Sai became Naruto's friend in the end), but that was a perfect chance for Sasuke to kill him, but he didn't do so
- In the current arc Sasuke could have gone first to kill Naruto, knowing that Naruto is after him again. But he didn't do so, he went against Itachi again not careing to gain MS.
- It was clear from the beginning that Sasuke's goal is not to kill his former teammates but to cut all the ties with them. He left Konoha to take his revenge by himself, not involving his friends. That's a positive thinking in my opinion, to not risk the life of your friends becuase of your personal goals. He clearly risks the success of his revenge by not killing Naruto and not using Konoha forces against akatsuki.

Eh I did say I was going to respond to this, so I'll make it short. I didn't say that Sasuke was a serial killer, a murderer or what have you. I said he wasn't above killing those that stand in his way, if he deems them a big enough threat. Naruto & Team Kakashi who have been pursing him for over 2 and a half years would qualify as that type of threat. Hence this is why I said he was not above killing his old team mates, and assualted them with a freaken sword, claiming he was going to kill them.

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

I think this is way off topic lol Yamato was hit, but the surprise on Sasuke's face when a piece of wood juts out showing that his attack was indeed blocked was just classic. Anyways from what I gather is that we're talking about Sasuke's redemption (which probably will happen as that's one of the reason they're bringing Sasuke back) In the modified words of Neji...Only Naruto will save Sasuke from the darkness. The thing is we're not 100% sure if Sasuke was planning to kill Naruto or just trying to wound Naruto just to stop him. You actually see mixed things in Naruto from Sasuke. For one in this he claimed he let Naruto live on a whim, but at the same token when Sasuke revisits the bridge he's clearly thinking about the mission with Naruto and Sakura. Not to mention he recognized Naruto before going to Oro. Sasuke isn't evil...he's the stereotypical anti-hero...i.e. Punisher...Wolverine. The question is how will Sasuke defeat Itachi on this newest confrontation, when he admitted that Oro. was stronger than him and only lost, because he was in a weakend state and if Oro. is stronger than him and Itachi is stronger than Oro. I just do not see the upcoming fight as one except for learning more about the Uchihas and the Sharingan.

Not going to press my opinion on this matter further, if you like re-read chapter 234, and I'm sure you'll figure out the answear as to why Sasuke didn't kill Naruto at the valley of end. If you do that & still can't figure out why he said I didn't kill you on a whim then feel free to ask. But that's pretty much all I'm going to say.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

Eh I did say I was going to respond to this, so I'll make it short. I didn't say that Sasuke was a serial killer, a murderer or what have you. I said he wasn't above killing those that stand in his way, if he deems them a big enough threat. Naruto & Team Kakashi who have been pursing him for over 2 and a half years would qualify as that type of threat. Hence this is why I said he was not above killing his old team mates, and assualted them with a freaken sword, claiming he was going to kill them.

I understand your opinion, so i just stated what are the reasons why my opinion is different. The main difference is that i think Sasuke didn't want to kill team-Naruto why you think that he wanted but Oro stopped him. We both have a lot of reasons or our side, but ultimately it's just a matter of how we interpret the same facts in a different way.

Just one more interesting thing i forgot previously (and i think this also adds to my opinion): when Sasuke goes against Sakura Yamato was behind Sakura, after a moment we see he is between them. I think there's no way Yamato can be faster than Sasuke, so if Sasuke really wanted to kill Sakura Yamato would not have the time to arrive there.

[tatami]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

I think Tatami means "suppressed" when he's says "surpassed".

ups spelling mistake...sorry for misunderstanding, yeah i meant suppressed

Originally Posted by Naotaka

1) Nice. I won't bother getting into what level ninja they were, but yes it does show an amazing talent at such a young age, that which even surpassed Orochimaru when he was Sasuke's age.

2) We agree on the first part of this. But is there a difference in surpassed it & supressed it? Just trying to clear this up before it gets more confusing?

3) Ok. Not sure what exactly happened there. Sai entered his Sasuke's room they exchanged a few words, all of a sudden the room blew up, and then Sai said that.

4) That last comment was for EroSenn1n. Not for you. Unless you were also telling him that you said "Sasuke beat ninjas not killed them"

Anyways while I definetly command you on a good job getting those pages out. There are still 2 things to keep in mind, and I'm putting this to rest one way or another.

1) Sasuke is talented no doubt about that. However so are the other main characters.

2) The most important part. The theories.

It started with someone saying well Sasuke didn't want to kill his team, it was just an act. Myself and a few others said BS we have evidance to prove it otherwise.

The saving grace that has carried this convo to this point is you saying that Sasuke could of killed them all if he wanted too so he isn't evil, bla bal bla. And now this is where the rest of the Sasuke theories fail:

The idea that Sasuke could of killed his old team mates & the rest of team Kakashi if he wanted to is only opinion as there is no absolute proof on that matter. He may infact be stronger then any one of them 1 on 1 at that point at time. Though I don't think he is better then Yamato but even if he was. Orochimaru & his puppet didn't seem to want to get involved into the fight.

There is really no evidance at all that prove that Sasuke could of ended up killing them all. Hence with out proof all you have is speculations and opinion.

However there is proof that Sasuke in fact did assault them all, and with a deadly weapon, stating he was going to kill them. And with that said, I am done on this topic. You guys can feel free to hold your own opinion, but the fact of that matter is, it still doesn't match the actions of what actually happened, and there for will only continue to be an opinion of yours.

look i didnt say they were hokage level but i tried to point out that that no name ninjas point that sasuke has enoug to deal with that crowd on his own which i think is a point for narutos mass kagebunshin tech. he can easily survive that much nin. its not about his jutsu power but his agility stamina jutsu knowledge and tactics. thats it.

2) it was my mistake of spelling, he didnr surpassed it but supressed it. :

3)they clashed their jutsus and sai was on the ground and sasuke was on top looking at him.and sai admitted sasuke overpowered his jutsu which means he lost this clash of jutsus...

i cant say who would win on a deathmatch between them but most probablu sasuke would be able to easily kill them at that moment according to circumstances (naruto weakend yamato pierced sai kissing ground and sakura doing dumb things) with that speed of him he doesnt need his sharingan to take out sakura and naruto...


main point is sasuke did seem trying to kill them but his intentions are unclear and my impression from his attitude in manga he tried to spare them unless they get in way...

smiling at naruto bridge lying to orochimaru all the way not killing them instantly when they met in oros lair and so...its sooooooooo much opinion based so lets leave it

[Naotaka]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I understand your opinion, so i just stated what are the reasons why my opinion is different. The main difference is that i think Sasuke didn't want to kill team-Naruto why you think that he wanted but Oro stopped him. We both have a lot of reasons or our side, but ultimately it's just a matter of how we interpret the same facts in a different way.

Just one more interesting thing i forgot previously (and i think this also adds to my opinion): when Sasuke goes against Sakura Yamato was behind Sakura, after a moment we see he is between them. I think there's no way Yamato can be faster than Sasuke, so if Sasuke really wanted to kill Sakura Yamato would not have the time to arrive there.

Dispite what happened in the manga. You just automaticly said Sasuke is better then Yamato, because there is no way Yamato can be that fast, but Sasuke is just so damn leet. I can't win an argument like this, useing facts because you've already made up your mind, long ago. So what's the point?

Edit: but I guess I should thank you for proving the bias in these arguments.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

Dispite what happened in the manga. You just automaticly said Sasuke is better then Yamato, because there is no way Yamato can be that fast, but Sasuke is just so damn leet. I can't win an argument like this, useing facts because you've already made up your mind, long ago. So what's the point?

Edit: but I guess I should thank you for proving the bias in these arguments.

Why do you question Sasuke's speed, it's his trademark, and the trademark of the Uchiha brothers:
- Kakashi couldn't see Itachi's attack, so he was defending all the time
- Sasuke was fast as Lee with open gates against Gaara
- they have the sharingan to see other's motion in advance, that's just too much of advantage even if they have the same speed
- Sasuke demonstrated his inhuman speed both against team-Yamato (they couldn't see his motions when he hugged Naruto) and against Deidara+Tobi

And of course Yamato didn't show super-speed, i suppose he has the speed of of a good jounin, but nothing special. As we saw he can use his wood jutsu to compensate the speed (for example he saved Sakura with one when she was falling from the bridge) but in that situation he didn't make a wood barrier but somehow managed to get between them.

Yamato is the wood guy and Sasuke the speed guy, so simple. Do you think that a side character like Yamato can be on Sasuke's level when Sasuke has grown so much that he challanges Itachi and kills Orochimaru and Deidara. Sasuke killed people who killed the 3rd hokage and the 3rd and 4th kazekage and is fast enough to defeat 1000 ninja without a scratch. Defeating 1000 ninja and not even being scratched means that he either has the ultimate defense like Gaara or he is very very fast.

Originally Posted by reloaded

Its nice to see Chapter 380 being discussed

In fact we are discussing it by estimating Sasuke's power. I think he is now as fast as Itachi and with CS2 has the power advantage in taijutsu. In genjutsu there is Itachi's MS and even without MS he already defeated both Deidara and Oro by simply looking at them. I think that's a clear advantage for Itachi in gejutsu. In ninjutsu Itachi had more time to learn as he is older and traveled the world, but Sasuke has learned from a sannin, so maybe a draw in this field. In the end MS is a clear difference, in the flashbacks MS is the reason why Itachi kills his best friend, so it must have a very important role in the story.

Itachi could prevent a big fight by using MS again, and forcing Sasuke to become like him and kill Naruto, Naruto is already heading their way so Itachi may mind-rape Sasuke to force him to kill Naruto and gain MS.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this possibility: Madara copying Pein's rinnegan ability. Supposing Madara has the ultimate MS or whatever he maybe already posessed Itachi and Madara has now 2 known bodies, one is Itachi's body and the other Tobi. Which means that when Madara killed the Uchiha clan he already posessed Itachi. Also that Tobi is not Madara, just like Pein is not Nagato or Yahiko, but he is the sum of those souls. And now Madara would also want to posess Sasuke too.

[tatami]

by the way kakashi could see itachis attacks but doesnt have the speed to counter it so he used a water based defence jutsu...he could see them but cant counter that fast...thats because he used a water barrier and didnt give a thing about shurikens in his hand but it comes to same thing i guess...

Originally Posted by Pentium

Which chapter was that? I would like to have a read

around 306 i think

[naruto89]

After the little scuffle with sasuke Yamato said something like "Because of you (naruto) and sakura being here, i wont resort to my cruder methods, but its time to get serious"

and i guess thats an inkling that yamato was playing around and had he been serious from the start who knows what might of happened.

back to the chapter in hand, ive just revisited some of the previous chapters and after seeing the kyuubi kanji behind itachi and the possible links between the uchiha's and the kyuubi.

it made me think for once about that statement that the kyuubi made to sasuke "if you were to kill naruto, you will regret it"

that might be referrng to the link between them rather than some possible retaliation

anyways just fort id add my pointless thought's

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Why do you question Sasuke's speed, it's his trademark, and the trademark of the Uchiha brothers:
- Kakashi couldn't see Itachi's attack, so he was defending all the time
- Sasuke was fast as Lee with open gates against Gaara
- they have the sharingan to see other's motion in advance, that's just too much of advantage even if they have the same speed
- Sasuke demonstrated his inhuman speed both against team-Yamato (they couldn't see his motions when he hugged Naruto) and against Deidara+Tobi

And of course Yamato didn't show super-speed, i suppose he has the speed of of a good jounin, but nothing special. As we saw he can use his wood jutsu to compensate the speed (for example he saved Sakura with one when she was falling from the bridge) but in that situation he didn't make a wood barrier but somehow managed to get between them.

Yamato is the wood guy and Sasuke the speed guy, so simple. Do you think that a side character like Yamato can be on Sasuke's level when Sasuke has grown so much that he challanges Itachi and kills Orochimaru and Deidara. Sasuke killed people who killed the 3rd hokage and the 3rd and 4th kazekage and is fast enough to defeat 1000 ninja without a scratch. Defeating 1000 ninja and not even being scratched means that he either has the ultimate defense like Gaara or he is very very fast.



In fact we are discussing it by estimating Sasuke's power. I think he is now as fast as Itachi and with CS2 has the power advantage in taijutsu. In genjutsu there is Itachi's MS and even without MS he already defeated both Deidara and Oro by simply looking at them. I think that's a clear advantage for Itachi in gejutsu. In ninjutsu Itachi had more time to learn as he is older and traveled the world, but Sasuke has learned from a sannin, so maybe a draw in this field. In the end MS is a clear difference, in the flashbacks MS is the reason why Itachi kills his best friend, so it must have a very important role in the story.

Itachi could prevent a big fight by using MS again, and forcing Sasuke to become like him and kill Naruto, Naruto is already heading their way so Itachi may mind-rape Sasuke to force him to kill Naruto and gain MS.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this possibility: Madara copying Pein's rinnegan ability. Supposing Madara has the ultimate MS or whatever he maybe already posessed Itachi and Madara has now 2 known bodies, one is Itachi's body and the other Tobi. Which means that when Madara killed the Uchiha clan he already posessed Itachi. Also that Tobi is not Madara, just like Pein is not Nagato or Yahiko, but he is the sum of those souls. And now Madara would also want to posess Sasuke too.

I think you're over estimating Sasuke's speed just a little lol Sure he's fast, but we don't know for sure how much faster Sasuke is than characters like Yamato...who only mentioned that Sasuke was fast. He never states he couldn't see Sasuke's movements it was Sakura who mentioned that she couldn't see his movements. We don't know for sure if he's faster or as fast as a gated Lee either. All we know is that he's fast. He already mentioned that Oro. was stronger than him and thats why he chose to attack Oro. at a weakend state.

I think the Deidra fight they were about even. except ultimately Sasuke managed to out-smart Deidra. Not to mention that Yamato technically matched (or was at least near) Sasuke's speed when he went to attack Sakura which caused the Kunei to break and he get stabbed, which he eventually managed to counter, because of his ability. The thing is Sasuke mentioned that he wasn't ready to take on Itachi alone. Which suggests that the confrontation between Sasuke and Itachi is probably meant to gain more information.

[Black-Cat-Sama]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

I think you're over estimating Sasuke's speed just a little lol Sure he's fast, but we don't know for sure how much faster Sasuke is than characters like Yamato...who only mentioned that Sasuke was fast. He never states he couldn't see Sasuke's movements it was Sakura who mentioned that she couldn't see his movements. We don't know for sure if he's faster or as fast as a gated Lee either. All we know is that he's fast. He already mentioned that Oro. was stronger than him and thats why he chose to attack Oro. at a weakend state.

I think the Deidra fight they were about even. except ultimately Sasuke managed to out-smart Deidra. Not to mention that Yamato technically matched (or was at least near) Sasuke's speed when he went to attack Sakura which caused the Kunei to break and he get stabbed, which he eventually managed to counter, because of his ability. The thing is Sasuke mentioned that he wasn't ready to take on Itachi alone. Which suggests that the confrontation between Sasuke and Itachi is probably meant to gain more information.

Well yeah we do know about him being faster than Gates Lee.... think about it, Lee couldn't touch gaara really (unless u count that one kick) without the gates. Once he opened the gates, he got hits off and brutally attacked Gaara, once the gates were open he could get hits on Gaara...when sasuke fought gaara...he was gettin hits in from the start...so yeah... and besides Lee envied him for getting that fast in such a short time.. hence.. yeah...point made..

and Obviously sasuke is ready for itachi now...he left Hebi behind without hesitation and alreayd trash talked...LMAO at tobi acting to get hurt

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama

Well yeah we do know about him being faster than Gates Lee.... think about it, Lee couldn't touch gaara really (unless u count that one kick) without the gates. Once he opened the gates, he got hits off and brutally attacked Gaara, once the gates were open he could get hits on Gaara...when sasuke fought gaara...he was gettin hits in from the start...so yeah... and besides Lee envied him for getting that fast in such a short time.. hence.. yeah...point made..

and Obviously sasuke is ready for itachi now...he left Hebi behind without hesitation and alreayd trash talked...LMAO at tobi acting to get hurt

it was stated at that time that Sasuke was as fast as lee without his weights...not as fast as a gated lee, but I'm just saying we don't know if he is at this point of time (although I would assume that he must be close)
I am a bit confused how he thinks he's going to take on Itachi now since he mentioned to Karin that Oro. was stronger, but in a weakened state, which means that he must still think Itachi is still way out of his league...maybe he wants to commit suicide...

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

He already mentioned that Oro. was stronger than him and thats why he chose to attack Oro. at a weakend state.

He never said that Oro was stronger, only that Oro was already weak when they fought, he was defending Oro against the stupid Suigetsu and Karin. When he actually fought Oro he said that even a great genius like Oro is nothing compared to an Uchiha. When we look back at that arc we see it was already forshadowed: Orochimaru was almost killed by only 4 tails while Sasuke supressed kyuubi and also kyuubi states that Sasuke's chakra is even more than sinister than his own.

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

I think the Deidra fight they were about even. except ultimately Sasuke managed to out-smart Deidra.

Sasuke was not going for the kill, if he were Deidara would already be dead in the first or second chapter. It was as difficult for Sasuke to defeat and not kill Deidara as it was for Deidara to defeat and not kill the 5th kazekage. Deidara even had Tobi's help to place some landmines. So i don't understand why do you say the opposite.

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

Not to mention that Yamato technically matched (or was at least near) Sasuke's speed when he went to attack Sakura which caused the Kunei to break and he get stabbed, which he eventually managed to counter, because of his ability.

Now this is where i say that Sasuke didn't want to kill while you say he was not able to kill. If we look only at this one scene you are clearly right, but i was looking at the whole story and considering all that i'm sure Sasuke never wanted to kill Sakura. So why would he seriously attack Sakura? I think he didn't want to kill Sakura in the first place, so it's not even important who was faster as Sasuke never wanted to reach Sakura.

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

The thing is Sasuke mentioned that he wasn't ready to take on Itachi alone. Which suggests that the confrontation between Sasuke and Itachi is probably meant to gain more information.

Where's that? In this chapter Sasuke says that he formed the team exactly because he wanted a 1 on 1 confrontation so that his team keeps anyone else from interfering with the fight. He didn't even consider killing Naruto before he visits Itachi, he clearly thinks that he can take on Itachi without the MS (unless he already gained it somehow).

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

it was stated at that time that Sasuke was as fast as lee without his weights...not as fast as a gated lee, but I'm just saying we don't know if he is at this point of time (although I would assume that he must be close)

It's true that ultimately Lee is faster. But:
- Lee is a taijutsu genius, his gate opening is a suicide attack as it was stated that it damages his body and leaves him in a very weak state after using
- we talk about Yamato, it's clear Yamato is not a taijutsu specialist like Gai or Lee. He has his own very special powers, and speed was never mentioned being one of his powers.

[astayanax]

it was stated at that time that Sasuke was as fast as lee without his weights...

This was stated pre-time skip. Since then, Sasuke speed had grown considerably whereas Lee's speed didn't grow at all. To put it into perspective, everyone but Orochimaru (and he was too busy trying to stay alive) was impressed at Sasuke's speed post timeskip one way or another by either making a comment or being overwhelmed with surprise.

I don't even know why this is an argument. Look at the way Sasuke fight pre-timeskip by using long range jutsus or a lion combo finisher when he catches the foe offguard to how he tries to overwhelm everyone with his speed and barrage of attacks post-timeskip.

Even Sasuke's summoning is extremely fast now...

[tkdtiger]

^ in my whole post if you read it I mentioned that we're not sure if his speed is greater than Lee's post-timeskip, besides we don't know if Lee's speed has grown or not...we just know that he's really fast.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

He never said that Oro was stronger, only that Oro was already weak when they fought, he was defending Oro against the stupid Suigetsu and Karin. When he actually fought Oro he said that even a great genius like Oro is nothing compared to an Uchiha. When we look back at that arc we see it was already forshadowed: Orochimaru was almost killed by only 4 tails while Sasuke supressed kyuubi and also kyuubi states that Sasuke's chakra is even more than sinister than his own. [/spoiler]

Well first it should be mentioned that Sasuke never faced a 4-tails Naruto. Kyubi also says a chakra that is more sinister, which doesn't imply more powerful. Also it's Sasuke's Genjutsu that over-powered Oro's Genjutsu. Technically Sasuke was already Paralyzed. before that and Oro. could have finished him off. Although it's true that he states that he is astonger than Oro. He states it when Oro. is in an obviously weakend form, which suggest he chose that moment to attack Oro. for a reason, which I think implies that he chose that moment it time, because he felt Oro. was weaker than him at that moment. Of course the largest reason I believe it implies that he defeated Oro, because he was in a weakend state is because after Karin asks why he was in such a beaten state. Sasuke mentions that Deidra was stronger than he expected. Than Karin states that this can't be true since he defeated Oro., which Sasuke replies Oro. was in a weakend state (talking about why he managed to defeat Oro.), which is why I think it implies the reason he won against Oro. was because he was in a weakend state.

Sasuke was not going for the kill, if he were Deidara would already be dead in the first or second chapter. It was as difficult for Sasuke to defeat and not kill Deidara as it was for Deidara to defeat and not kill the 5th kazekage. Deidara even had Tobi's help to place some landmines. So i don't understand why do you say the opposite.

I think this is based on the interpretation of the event. We know that Sasuke wanted info from Deidra, but he probably was still willing to kill Deidra so I don't think that he nec. was going easier on Deidra; rather as Sasuke stated...he underestimated Deidra...So I think at first he thought Deidra was weaker than Oro. and was not a threat, but once he realized that Deidra was very good he took the fight more serious and was very much willing to kill Deidra. I'm not saying if he was ultimately stronger since we don't know for sure if Sasuke ever tried his hardest, which is why I kind of thought it as a tie, with Sasuke winning, because he out-smarted Deidra

Now this is where i say that Sasuke didn't want to kill while you say he was not able to kill. If we look only at this one scene you are clearly right, but i was looking at the whole story and considering all that i'm sure Sasuke never wanted to kill Sakura. So why would he seriously attack Sakura? I think he didn't want to kill Sakura in the first place, so it's not even important who was faster as Sasuke never wanted to reach Sakura.

Actually I agree with you that Sasuke prob. didn't want actually kill, but even so that doesn't mean Sasuke was going to slow down either. He wanted to end the confrontation quickly. Obviously Sai hit a nerve with his speech about Naruto and bonds and it's semi-obvious that Sasuke considered Naruto a friend, but as he stated he has a bond of hatred that's stronger

Where's that? In this chapter Sasuke says that he formed the team exactly because he wanted a 1 on 1 confrontation so that his team keeps anyone else from interfering with the fight. He didn't even consider killing Naruto before he visits Itachi, he clearly thinks that he can take on Itachi without the MS (unless he already gained it somehow).

It was in the cave that he mentions that Itachi was still stronger than him and Oro., but at the same token time has passed by and he may actually now believe he can take Itachi. I'm not really disagreeing with anything said I'm just looking at how some of these events can be interpreted differently

As for Yamato I'm just saying we don't know enough about him to make a clear referance of speed. Personally I agree that Sasuke is prob. one of the fastest characters in the Naruto Universe.

[astayanax]

He states it when Oro. is in an obviously weakend form, which suggest he chose that moment to attack Oro. for a reason, which I think implies that he chose that moment it time, because he felt Oro. was weaker than him at that moment.

No, he attacked Orochimaru because he realized Orochimaru had nothing new to teach him (Kishi hinted this as well during a scene where Sasuke pretty much demanded more power from Orochimaru). Sasuke didn't know that Orochimaru was bed-ridden and the timing of the attack was a coincidence. Granted this was to his advantage.

but once he realized that Deidra was very good he took the fight more serious and was very much willing to kill Deidra.

No, everytime Sasuke got his chance, he put Deidara in a position where he could ask him questions about Itachi. He even stated as such. If Sasuke wanted Deidara dead, it would had probably happened under 1 or 2 chapters since it was Deidara who underestimated Sasuke and not the other way around.

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by astayanax

If Sasuke wanted Deidara dead, it would had probably happened under 1 or 2 chapters since it was Deidara who underestimated Sasuke and not the other way around.

Such hypotheticals make you seem like you're referring to a real event when it isn't. Like he had a choice. The only choice any of these characters have in their actions is already pre-determined by the author. I would suggest leaving out relative probabilities in your arguments because they make things seem more fantasy than this cartoon already is.

[snip]

[tkdtiger]

^about that round house kick nah...I'm not Chuck Norris :P

Well anyways I was only saying alot is left to interpretation...I'm still waiting to see what these confrontations will bring to the story thus far. You have Tobi confronting Naruto's team and Itachi letting Sasuke confront him. I still wonder if Kishimoto planned to have all three eyes in this arc...i.e. Sasuke, Hinata, and Rinnegan or if it was just done as a coincidence...

[Hunter]

I'm going to allow the speculations about Sasuke's current strength level related to Itachi's considering the current plot but if it degenerates into a sordid Vs. thread mess it will be quickly closed. Note this : you are not required to reply to this thread if you do not have something useful to say.
This will be the only warning, if I have to ban people over pointless answers then so be it.

To be clear : the "lol X will win" kind of answer is pointless and will be deleted.