2012-01-31, 18:02 | Link #27461 | ||||||||||||
The True Culprit
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2012-01-31, 18:24 | Link #27462 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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"I had found this diary among her belongings after her death and had secretly taken it home." If Tohya did write that whole 1998 plotline, then it couldn't have been circulated with the rest of that particular Forgery online. It's the same as how the Meta-World scenes probably weren't in. It just doesn't make sense if they are, because these are things that were never mentioned in a single future timeline when the Forgeries are being discussed. Therefore, we have no reason to believe that Tohya wrote those parts of the story, and no reason to believe that he ever read the diary. Quote:
Again, putting an identity (or in other words, a certain part of who she is) to rest does not equate to the death of Yasuda herself. "Beatrice" is always the one who seeks to be put to rest if Battler does not understand her and remember the promise. After all, she has been waiting for him for a thousand years. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that the same applies to Yasuda. |
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2012-01-31, 18:33 | Link #27463 |
Ordinary Magician
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Gensokyo
Age: 31
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Beatrice is Yasu. Yasu did not create a separate personality and named her Beatrice. She became Beatrice. I thought it was obvious in EP7. (It's fine if you're referring to the Yasu before the birth of Beatrice.)
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2012-01-31, 18:43 | Link #27464 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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They are not mere furniture. Treating them as such is unacceptable. A furniture is a being that does not possess love of their own. In other words, their actions and beliefs and everything about them, is determined by the orders they receive. A furniture is pretty much the same as a Piece. This, in turn, is pretty much the same as the characters in an author's story. Said characters cannot do anything, unless the author wills it. This definition is supported by EP6, where BATTLER understands that a Piece version of Beatrice is incapable of doing or thinking anything without receiving orders to do so. I do believe that Beatrice is at the very core of who Yasuda is. However, even so, Beatrice is only part of who she is. |
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2012-01-31, 18:45 | Link #27465 | |||||
The True Culprit
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2012-01-31, 18:50 | Link #27466 | |
Ordinary Magician
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Gensokyo
Age: 31
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So basically there are only 3 personalities : Kanon, Shannon and Beato. However Beato is the programmer. She has the right to "modify the world". Shannon and Kanon are not aware of this. It's shown in EP7.
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2012-01-31, 19:06 | Link #27468 | |||||
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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If you want to claim that EP4 Ange is simply the personification of Ange's feelings which reached Tohya (after all, it was said time and time again that ANGE's purpose was to convey the feelings of the future Ange to the Battler of 1986), that would be valid, except that... In the EP8 ??? scene, Tohya said he had been terrified of Ange and had refused to meet her of his own will. It really doesn't sound like Ange reached him in any way, shape, or form. That might seem like I'm making up something to argue against, when you never said anything of the sort, however you did say that the Meta-World in your eyes is Quote:
After all, even in EP8, it's made clear that Ange never actually existed on the game board. BATTLER allowed her to exist there as an illusionary Piece. Quote:
Without love, your definition is all that could be seen. Quote:
Last edited by Toku; 2012-01-31 at 19:18. |
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2012-01-31, 19:11 | Link #27469 |
Ordinary Magician
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Gensokyo
Age: 31
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But at the beginning we had both Yasu and Shannon. After that (around chapter 4 in Clair's story) what used to be Yasu's narrative and dialogue became Beatrice's. And Will also declared her as the culprit.
I think that Beatrice considers Shannon and Kanon to be a part of her though. Since she spoke in plural and all that we are one yet many deal.
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2012-01-31, 19:17 | Link #27470 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Also I would like to say that I made a mistake with a previous Red and will now correct it: The Shannon I was speaking of did not appear in 1983. Rather, she appeared when WhiteDress!Beatrice was born. |
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2012-01-31, 19:21 | Link #27471 |
Ordinary Magician
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Gensokyo
Age: 31
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Yeah, but Shannon fell in love with Battler. After the whole broken promise business it was Beatrice(or whitedressbeato, mintbeato w/e) who modified Shannon again, by transferring her love to herself. Kanon and Shannon are never shown to be capable of this, only Yasu was. Therefore Yasu must be MintBeato.
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2012-01-31, 19:25 | Link #27472 |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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I guess you could say that there's no actual proof that Shannon and Kanon are also part of Yasuda's identity. However, unless you believe that they are, you won't be able to explain why she chooses to express important parts of herself through them in the episodes, and why she (supposedly) chose to use those facades for years in Rokkenjima Prime. There would have been no reason to do so except that she sees them as parts of who she is.
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2012-01-31, 19:34 | Link #27473 | |||||||
The True Culprit
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We do know, however, that Touya has had an occupation with Ange for years, and after he almost met her and decided against it out of fear, he's been regretting it ever since. What if he thought she killed herself out of despair because he never met her? Wouldn't he write forgeries about her in that case? Quote:
But that's not important, because... Quote:
That aside, Meta-Ange represents Ange as a platonic concept, the exact context shifting throughout the narrative similarly to Eva-Beatrice. In general, she represents the hypothetical Ange that Touya never knew, and how he imagined she grew up and suffered without his presence. The long and short of it is that she is the embodiment of Motive. Meta-Battler's reason not to give up. A personal, emotional reason to combat the Witch other than mere stubbornness. Quote:
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Furthermore, the red you posted doesn't in any way contradict what I said. What's the point of indicating Shannon's and Yasuda's similarities when I'm saying they're the same person? Quote:
That being said, my definition of Piece doesn't pose a problem with this; I don't think being a Piece invalidates a character's free will, independence, personality, or ability to express thoughts and emotions. After all, Erika, Meta-Ange, and Lion are all also called Pieces. Furniture and Pieces are not the same thing.
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2012-01-31, 21:01 | Link #27474 | ||||||||||||
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Why did Ange keep saying in EP8 that she knows that BATTLER is just painting one big illusion for her and that none of it is real? How is it possible for a Detective Piece to see that many illusions before 24:00 of Oct. 5? It shouldn't be. Furthermore, she was sick in the EP8 timeline. She just suddenly and miraculously got better right as it was time to leave for Rokkenjima. Which really doesn't make any sense... Quote:
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"However, she isn't a piece, so she can go against my will." At that time, he summoned a new Beato, called her a Piece, and said this: "You're just an illusion who won't laugh unless I order it... ...and who can't even continue to laugh unless I keep on ordering it..." Hm... Wait... Quote:
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And does this mean that the original Meta!Beatrice, who died and was revived without her memories, is also a Piece? ...Oh... I had forgotten about this. Quote:
I guess that this means that the difference between the two Beatos here is that, since BATTLER created one of them, that one couldn't do anything without his orders. But the other had been programmed by Beatrice already... Hmm... No, that still doesn't seem to add up... Quote:
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2012-01-31, 21:17 | Link #27475 | |||||||
The True Culprit
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The narrative is fudging facts in order to deliver the message: That message being a comparison between Beatrice, Maria, and Ange, and what they all have in common and ultimately what Battler needs to realize about himself and about these girls. Quote:
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Also, Bern's Gameboard and Battler's Gameboard are not the same thing. There were literally two Gameboards, and Ange was kidnapped from one and put on the other. Since Ange wasn't part of Bern's Game, then of course she couldn't interact with anything. Quote:
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2012-01-31, 21:22 | Link #27476 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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ChickBeato is apparently a piece, but not one that Battler created but one that the original Beatrice created and Battler merely set on the gameboard. So it's possible he can't 'control' her although technically she's a piece and likely a high class one as she can show up in the meta world. I've been wondering if it's possible that, although the game is apparently Battler vs Erika, Beato was supposed to be a Meta-detective. Erika, though acting as a detective is the culprit so she can't be the real detective. Beato, being solely Meta could be able to interact with Meta figures in the same way as Meta Battler could interact with... let's say Ronove. So it's more like Battler is playing a game with 2 people, from one side there's Erika, from the other there's Beato. Though Beato isn't called to investigate on who's the culprit but on the past of the previous Beato. Or, if you want, this would make EP 6 a game from Battler's perspective. He also thought Shannon had forgot their promise and wanted her to remember, ence the game which aimed to be a mere game... though something went wrong and killing happened anyway. In Ep 5 Beato and Battler were compared to 2 shy kids afraid to declare to each other. I wonder if this can be the other side of what had happened in Rokkenjima Prime. Battler and Yasuda, persuaded that the other had forgot about the promise, both planned something to get the other to remember. Their plans clashed and ended up twisted by unexpected elements and tragedy happened. But as it's a recently born theory I still have to work on it. |
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2012-01-31, 22:02 | Link #27477 | ||||||||
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You're also saying that all of the following literally exist in the inner logic of his game board... -Kanon, Shannon, AND Beatrice, all completely separate entities with bodies of their own -Kinzo, who is not only alive but also with a completely different personality -Magic... Weren't you always saying that magic can't really exist on the game board outside of the Fantasy side of the story...? Which by the way, the first two of these things were clearly seen by Ange, which conclusively means that either she can't have a reliable perspective or these things really are real in this story... ...Alright, I really don't care that much about this issue lol. I just thought I could use it as evidence of Ikuko=Yasuda, but it looks like it's possible to get around that by assuming that Tohya read Maria's Diary, and in EP8, warped Beatrice's beloved game board until it was barely recognizable... This really seems like a bizarre theory, in my opinion, but I guess that Ikuko=Yasuda looks just as bizarre to you, so I'll call truce here. Quote:
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I just don't like to hear things like "Shannon doesn't really exist," but I think that what you're getting at is "Shannon doesn't physically exist" which is valid... Outside of your interpretation of EP8, I guess. Quote:
...Alright, I'll accept that definition. What was I arguing about again? I don't remember. Ummmmmmm... Oh. Motives for Ikuko=Yasuda. Following your theory about the personas, let's say that the part of her personality which constitutes "Beatrice" "died" in October of 1986 (as spoken in Red). That in no way prevents the existence of a post-incident Yasuda with a broken identity, who hopes to find a new identity for herself as Hachijo Ikuko, and who kidnapped Hachijo Tohya in hopes that Tohya would be able to understand her. Quote:
But more importantly, you brought up something interesting. On the game board of EP6, there is no Detective Piece, is there? So does that mean that there is no reliable perspective, and illusions can do whatever they want outside of Red Truth? Quote:
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2012-01-31, 22:49 | Link #27478 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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It seems like the Ikuko=Yasu debate is a lot more like "Christianity or Islam." I'm just going to say I think the story is very well written if Ikuko is Yasu and Ryukishi is a bro.
Anyway, Rokkenjima Prime thingy. Can someone run down the whole George culprit theory? (Preferably someone who supports it.) I'm not really that knowledgeable on it and would like to be. |
2012-01-31, 23:02 | Link #27479 | ||||||||||
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We're already fudging the premise with Ange's presence, and unlike, say, EP5, we're not trying to divulge the Truth or battle a Witch or anything. It only exists to deliver Battler's message. Quote:
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And by Meta-Detective, I think he means how she went around exploring the Gameboard, it's past, and AuAu's library trying to figure things out for Battler's sake. Quote:
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2012-01-31, 23:30 | Link #27480 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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