Romance in Macross

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by ani_d

I don't think Sheryl's 0.5-1 second flashes in the OP gave her more screentime than Ranka.

Sheryl has about 3 1 second scenes in the OP by herself while Ranka only has the goddess pose one which is what 1.5 seconds?. Everything else is done evenly or they are shown at the same time. Sheryl's in the OP more, not that it manners and if it did the second OP is more of an indication anyway.

It also doesn't help that the OP's lyrics pertain to Ranka.

The OST confirmed it was written for the original Macross triangle. I actually expect to see one of the main 3 to flick channels and come across the Triangler tv show and remark how they are in a similar situation.

I'll give Sheryl the ED theme, but if you want to get technical about the cast listing, just look at the official website and magazines lol

In 5 years time when the websites down Sheryl is still going to be listed #2 for 7 of the first 10 episodes on the dvds/blueray/fansubs. Was Shinn Asuka still listed before Kira Yamato on the Gundam SEED Destiny website during the second half of the show? If so a lot of good that did him in the actual show itself since he got his show jacked by Kira.

Notice that in the 3 episodes where Ranka has been listed #2 (#2, #4, #10) they have been Ranka centric episodes, anything else is with Sheryl as #2, episodes where they have even amount of focus, Sheryl centric episodes and even the episode where the two are hardly even in it like #9. IIRC when Deculture aired a few people mentioned Sheryl being listed as #2 and wondered if there was a change in focus since everything beforehand indicated that Ranka was the clear female lead. The first 10 episodes of Frontier shows us that isn't the case and they have been very even. I expect the last 15 to follow suit.

Anyway, I'm just saying that the OP/ED and random cast listings at the end each episodes etc etc aren't enough proof to support that the two girls will have an even role IN the story.

I'm not saying they will be even in the story, Ranka will clearly be more important when it comes to the plot, everyone has known that since she started affecting the Varja with her singing. I'm talking about the show itself as a whole, story, development, romance, music. When looked at as a complete overview they are very even so far and I don't see why they won't be by the end. Sheryl and Ranka are like DiCaprio and Damon in the Departure, both have very equal but different roles.

[Dark Wing]

I'm not picking any sides in this paring war...I said it once I'll say it again I going to wait for the ending and whatever the staff decides to do I'll let it be...

[herbert]

Originally Posted by Westlo

In 5 years time when the websites down Sheryl is still going to be listed #2 for 7 of the first 10 episodes on the dvds/blueray/fansubs. Was Shinn Asuka still listed before Kira Yamato on the Gundam SEED Destiny website during the second half of the show? If so a lot of good that did him in the actual show itself since he got his show jacked by Kira.

Notice that in the 3 episodes where Ranka has been listed #2 (#2, #4, #10) they have been Ranka centric episodes, anything else is with Sheryl as #2, episodes where they have even amount of focus, Sheryl centric episodes and even the episode where the two are hardly even in it like #9. IIRC when Deculture aired a few people mentioned Sheryl being listed as #2 and wondered if there was a change in focus since everything beforehand indicated that Ranka was the clear female lead. The first 10 episodes of Frontier shows us that isn't the case and they have been very even. I expect the last 15 to follow suit.

It's very funny, Westlo. We need move our eyes away from main 3 to know why is laughable to give too much credit to the official website. Yeah, Ranka is listed 2nd, so her fanclub #1 and #3 listed 5th and 6th, then you believe they are more important than Ozma to the show in general (who is listed at 7th)? I can understand Micheal is probably more important than Ozma, I fail to see how Nanase and Luca can be. If Nanase and Luca are less important than Ozma but list before him, why should we give a damn to the official website?

Originally Posted by Haesslich

If that was strictly true, then he'd either have gone into flying wholeheartedly because he wanted to... but didn't, and needed Sheryl and Klein to put any feelings he had on the matter into words he could use to explain them to himself. And even then, he has to be given a bit of a push - we don't really see him fight, and fight well, until something urges him to - like needing to protect Ranka, watching Luca get taken, etc. Once he gets the 'reason', he becomes an utter monster in the cockpit, and can accomplish what needs to be done. Until then, he's a rank newbie who keeps doubting himself... again, at least until Sheryl and Klein helped him over his 'why' thing.

In that way, he's much like Ranka, who also needed a push (usually the plane, or else Sheryl's kiss) to move into action without regrets or thoughts of doubt to sabotage her. Once this happens, she's also similarly a juggernaut... and in doing so landed an agent, then a major supporting role in a movie. Which, in turn, seems to be driving her towards Minmay-style 'lonely at the top' superstardom.

Incidentally, Grace is the reason Sheryl has much more intel on Alto than Ranka. Major Grace O'Connor seems to have a gift for being nosy...

Yes, he is in need of push. So what? You missed my main point after all. What I said is that he behaves in similiar way of Ranka but for different reason so they look like but indeed different. If you look at another line in the same post of mine, I said "It's true sometimes people fall in love without any obvious reason. But do you agree people also question why they love their lovers or spouses when their relations are in trouble?" It is same here, Alto can love flying without reasons but he can't always fly without reasons. Plus he does more than just flying, he fights, he flies to fight which can make him throw up so he is confused by his decision. Allow me repeat again. Alto needs someone to tell him if he is right to do it; Ranka needs someone to tell her that she can do it. Alto always needs those "reasons" because he doesn't really believe in himself to make right decision or why Micheal's teasing can work on him? This is exactly why I say he is different from Ranka but same animal like Sheryl. You have already mentioned what he would do once he fully gets "reasons" (even though they are just short-time reasons), he acts like Sheryl pursuing her panty. He does it recklessly and without thinking anything but have things done. So I said Ranka and Alto are different in core.

[Haesslich]

Originally Posted by herbert

Yes, he is in need of push. So what? You missed my main point after all. What I said is that he behaves in similiar way of Ranka but for different reason so they look like but indeed different. If you look at another line in the same post of mine, I said "It's true sometimes people fall in love without any obvious reason. But do you agree people also question why they love their lovers or spouses when their relations are in trouble?" It is same here, Alto can love flying without reasons but he can't always fly without reasons. Plus he does more than just flying, he fights, he flies to fight which can make him throw up so he is confused by his decision. Allow me repeat again. Alto needs someone to tell him if he is right to do it; Ranka needs someone to tell her that she can do it. Alto always needs those "reasons" because he doesn't really believe in himself to make right decision or why Micheal's teasing can work on him? This is exactly why I say he is different from Ranka but same animal like Sheryl. You have already mentioned what he would do once he fully gets "reasons" (even though they are just short-time reasons), he acts like Sheryl pursuing her panty. He does it recklessly and without thinking anything but have things done. So I said Ranka and Alto are different in core.

They're different people, with different reasons... but at the same time, both are a little crippled by their doubts, and both need a nudge in order to get going, unlike Sheryl who seems to have come pre-nudged by circumstances. I don't agree with you that Alto needs to be told that it's RIGHT to fly... but at the same time, he needed a reason to let go of his doubts and follow his instincts, which tend to be formidable... if hard on his equipment.

Sheryl, on the other hand, finds her reasons on her own... while Ranka needs to be given them, or at least have her thinking nudged in that direction. That's why I say Alto and Ranka are more alike in their doubts than Alto is like Sheryl in terms of his willingness to embrace the unknown, since he didn't really do so, unlike Sheryl. Or at least, he doesn't do it as willingly as her.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by Haesslich

They're different people, with different reasons... but at the same time, both are a little crippled by their doubts, and both need a nudge in order to get going, unlike Sheryl who seems to have come pre-nudged by circumstances. I don't agree with you that Alto needs to be told that it's RIGHT to fly... but at the same time, he needed a reason to let go of his doubts and follow his instincts, which tend to be formidable... if hard on his equipment.

Sheryl, on the other hand, finds her reasons on her own... while Ranka needs to be given them, or at least have her thinking nudged in that direction. That's why I say Alto and Ranka are more alike in their doubts than Alto is like Sheryl in terms of his willingness to embrace the unknown, since he didn't really do so, unlike Sheryl. Or at least, he doesn't do it as willingly as her.

I'm not sure if I'd call that a similarity. Everyone has their inner doubts, and everyone has to fight against those doubts in order to play their part. As far as the three protagonists is concerned, each of the three depends on the others to overcome those doubts and succeed.

Although Sheryl is presented as a very independant girl, she too has her underlying fears, especially where Galaxy is concerned. In episode eight, when Alto raises the issue of Galaxy's situation, there's a moment when Sheryl has to pause and convince herself before she feels more confident again. Although she's the one out of the three who spends the most time inspiring the other two, her strength is a shaky thing, since she has no true friends or family to draw that strength from.

We've seen at least two different occasions of Sheryl getting support from the other two already, though. First, from Alto in episode six, where he accepts her earring to go fight on her behalf when he sees that Sheryl is feeling really down. Second, from Ranka in episode seven, when Sheryl breaks down on stage and is unable to continue the concert on her own strength.

This second case is especially important because it provides an example of the protagonists mutually inspiring each other, rather than the usual one-way relationship that we've seen most of the time.

During the concert, Ranka is suddenly faced with fear due to the knowledge that her brother will be off fighting, as she still is unable to understand why he has to fight. Sheryl's emotions are similarily in turmoil over the the attack on her home, as well as the thought of having had her last meeting with her first real friend on Frontier. However, Ranka is able to draw strength from the awareness that Sheryl too, is aware of the fighting and is trying to stay strong under difficult circumstances herself. Sheryl likewise draws strength from hearing Ranka's voice, which allows her to regain her composure. Together, their singing reaches out to Alto, which in turn dramatically influences the battle at hand. (I've posted similar points on this scene in episode eight thread already, but I thought that it was worth revisiting in the current context.)

I think that the issue here has less to do with the doubts that the characters have than it does with where they draw their support. Ranka has many people around her to rely on (the Ranka Fan Club (which includes Alto), Sheryl, and Ozma), but often lacks the independance to similarily help others. Sheryl, on the other hand, is extremely independant and good at helping others with their problems, but rarely has people to draw support from and lacks the faith to rely on others. Alto is somewhere in between: in some ways he's closed and very self-reliant, yet he still understands how to find inspiration in what other people have to say, on occasion.

I suspect that what we are headed toward is a sort of reversal in this regard. Just as Ranka is slowly learning to find strength from within herself (episode ten was a big step forward here), Sheryl will have to learn how to put her faith in others and discover the strength that exists in the bonds that she forms with the people around her. When all three finally stand on the stage as equals, then you'll probably see some real fireworks.

[ani_d]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I'm not entirely joking.

My bad ^^

Originally Posted by Westlo

Sheryl has about 3 1 second scenes in the OP by herself while Ranka only has the goddess pose one which is what 1.5 seconds?. Everything else is done evenly or they are shown at the same time. Sheryl's in the OP more, not that it manners and if it did the second OP is more of an indication anyway.

Yes, Triangular was written for SDF Macross, but no matter which angle we look at the song, the words STILL point to Ranka. Ranka's 'goddess' pose played right at "unmei naraba tsunagasete" (If it's fate, then let's be together). Sing it properly, that's not 1.5 seconds. They specifically timed the image and words for a reason. The first OP clearly was a foreshadowing of the first half of the series--in Ranka's POV. Ranka was also shown first before Sheryl. Every girl who gets the Right to appear first in any OP always are very important. But who knows, MAYBE Sheryl will appear first in the second OP. Maybe.

Originally Posted by Westlo

Notice that in the 3 episodes where Ranka has been listed #2 (#2, #4, #10) they have been Ranka centric episodes, anything else is with Sheryl as #2, episodes where they have even amount of focus, Sheryl centric episodes and even the episode where the two are hardly even in it like #9. IIRC when Deculture aired a few people mentioned Sheryl being listed as #2 and wondered if there was a change in focus since everything beforehand indicated that Ranka was the clear female lead. The first 10 episodes of Frontier shows us that isn't the case and they have been very even. I expect the last 15 to follow suit.

Anyway, all of those episodes where Sheryl has been number 2 in cast listing, except maybe for ep 7, Ranka has more screentime than her. Even in the deculture version where Sheryl--who got the supposedly 'important' number 2 spot in the credits--had her rightful screentime cut by Ranka. Even I thought that was a little unfair of the staff. Frankly, I still have yet to see an episode where it was all about Sheryl. Ranka always ALWAYS gets her way with the camera one way or another. Even in episode 7, when Sheryl threw her own concert, Ranka's character development never took a break.

My point here is that, Ranka--who is supposedly the 'official' 3rd person on the list--has her character developed more than Sheryl. I know Misa Hayase was listed third in SDF Macross but was the most developed female character in the show. Is this the so-called Kawamori tradition? With the random arrangement of the cast listing at the end of each episode, I'd rather look at the story, the homepage, and magazine spreads. It's really obvious.

Originally Posted by herbert

It's very funny, Westlo. We need move our eyes away from main 3 to know why is laughable to give too much credit to the official website. Yeah, Ranka is listed 2nd, so her fanclub #1 and #3 listed 5th and 6th, then you believe they are more important than Ozma to the show in general (who is listed at 7th)? I can understand Micheal is probably more important than Ozma, I fail to see how Nanase and Luca can be. If Nanase and Luca are less important than Ozma but list before him, why should we give a damn to the official website?

Nanase and Luca are in the friends circle of Alto and Ranka. They spend more screentime with the main characters than Ozma. They're not less important, actually. It makes sense.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I'm not sure if I'd call that a similarity. Everyone has their inner doubts, and everyone has to fight against those doubts in order to play their part. As far as the three protagonists is concerned, each of the three depends on the others to overcome those doubts and succeed.

Hmm...I think Ranka and Alto's doubts are similar enough. I'm probably reinstating what Haesslich already said here but the two characters did start out having not enough faith in themselves. Ranka's doubt stems from her inability to shine brighter (ep 3), while Alto's stems from from his inability to fly higher (ep 1). Sheryl, on the other hand, NEVER doubted herself. There's a big difference here in terms of 'inner doubt'. Sheryl's vulnerable moment wasn't even about herself, but about Galaxy's welfare or her earrings. We haven't shown any 'inner doubt' coming from Sheryl actually. If there's a particular scene pointing to this, then please enlighten me. Though I do agree with you that the three did depend (directly and indirectly) on each other at times.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Sheryl will have to learn how to put her faith in others and discover the strength that exists in the bonds that she forms with the people around her. When all three finally stand on the stage as equals, then you'll probably see some real fireworks.

As if episode 10 isn't fireworks enough

[cheesie]

Yes, Triangular was written for SDF Macross, but no matter which angle we look at the song, the words STILL point to Ranka. Ranka's 'goddess' pose played right at "unmei naraba tsunagasete" (If it's fate, then let's be together).

Uh what. The song is written for Minmay/Hikaru/Misa. If it's written about them, chances are the song is talking about THEIR side, not Ranka. That's an opinion I do not share at all, but hey, no offense or anything, seriously, but I'd probably take this sentence more seriously if this remark wasn't so unreasonably insistent in its tone.

[herbert]

Originally Posted by ani_d

Nanase and Luca are in the friends circle of Alto and Ranka. They spend more screentime with the main characters than Ozma. They're not less important, actually. It makes sense.

I yield, seriously.

[Westlo]

Okay ani_d what part of "dragging a weak crybaby along with me" is from Ranka's POV? Also that "You say your my friend but you don't love me, you say you'll protect me but you're not by my side" is sung during the Sheryl parts.

But who knows, MAYBE Sheryl will appear first in the second OP. Maybe.

Considering she's singing the OP with Ranka it's either her or both at the same time. Depending on how they start the song off... if they both sing at the same time will be both, if Sheryl says a line first it will show her, same with Ranka. Also Aiko was shown first in the True Tears OP (no really check it, 0.1 second flash of Aiko before Hiromi!), I rest my case.

Anyway, all of those episodes where Sheryl has been number 2 in cast listing, except maybe for ep 7, Ranka has more screentime than her.

No she hasn't, you're looking at this through Ranka goggles. Even if you're right how come the person who has more screen time is listed third? Care to explain? Also it seems you can't admit that they are even leads, why is that? You seem to be one of the few people who seem to think Ranka is the Shana of this series while Sheryl is the Yoshida.

Even in the deculture version where Sheryl--who got the supposedly 'important' number 2 spot in the credits--had her rightful screentime cut by Ranka. Even I thought that was a little unfair of the staff.

Eh? Sheryl had about the same amount of screen time in both versions of episode 1, when they combine both versions for the final version of episode 1 her screen time is well ahead of Ranka. You add the part before the start (first female shown is most important according to you!) and an extra verse of Don't Be Late on top of the extra stuff from broadcast edition.

Even in episode 7, when Sheryl threw her own concert, Ranka's character development never took a break.

I fail too see how finding out your idol knows more about the people you care about is character development... (and she still has issues with this as 8 & 10 shows) and Sheryl had more development than Ranka in that episode... but whatever it was minuscule to non-existent for both of them. Ranka and Sheryl aren't exactly character development powerhouses like Jomy and Keith from Terra e... Ranka's development has been very slow and needs people to nudge it along for her and Sheryl has been revealing more sides to her character than actually developing so far.

Nanase and Luca are in the friends circle of Alto and Ranka. They spend more screentime with the main characters than Ozma. They're not less important, actually. It makes sense.

This just in Krillian more important to DBZ than Vegeta because he spends more time with Goku, same with all mascot characters who hang out with main characters.

Also why do you keep mocking people using Kawamori preferences as a hint to the final pairing. It's like ignoring Nadal's Clay court record and predicting Federer was going to win the French Open the other day. If a guy shows he prefers something over and over again over 25 years it's smart to not ignore it unless they completely change styles. Oh I wonder how CCA is going to end.. can't be full of deaths like Ideon, Zeta, MSG, Aura Battler because Tomino wouldn't do the same thing over and over And yes Kawamori went more hippy with Arjuna/Zero but his preference for women in both shows didn't change... and Frontier is a series where he's closer to being what he use to be for the first time this decade.

Oh yeah Innocent Green = Afure Deru, Kimochi from True Tears, last half of the song will be played during "the" scene between Sheryl and Alto. Though I have a little more doubt about this one than Afure Deru, Kimochi... considering I waited a week to post this whereas as soon as I heard Afure Deru, Kimochi I posted

Spoiler for Treu Tears:

Hiromi wins

even though it was episode 7 or 8.

[ani_d]

For the umpteenth time, I know this song was written for Misa Hayase, but if you read the whole thing, it actually relates to Ranka as well. And I don't mean any sarcasm to this but, anyone knows why they put an SDF Macross song for Macross Frontier?

Spoiler for Triangular lyrics:

Who are you kissing?
Me or that girl?
Who are you kissing?
My pure heart will go round the stars

As a coward, and a crybaby,
I’m still thinking I’ll go
More than loving, more than wanting,
doubting is always what frustrates my simple self

It hurts
How you’re my friend but don’t love me,
how you’ll protect me but won’t be with me
It’s a bitter antinomy (Just curious, did Hikaru and Misa have this kind of relationship too?)
Touch me right away
If this is fate, then let us be connected

Who are you kissing?
Me or that girl?
More than the words that rock my heart,
it’s the limitations irresponsibility holds

A law that judges delusions
When it hit me from behind,
I stumbled upon openhearted love
Just by breathing with all your might,
come get me, because I’m drowning

It hurts
That I believe the lies you say to my face
Because I can’t beg your laughing voice
The future is too much for me
Hold me right away
Pushing down anything like reason

Who are you kissing?
Me or that girl?
Tears are quite useless
My pure heart will soar up to the stars

Who are you kissing?

Who are you kissing?
Me or that girl?
My sentimentality is now
brandishing upright just one life

My sentimentality is now
brandishing upright just one life

Technically, Mikhail and Luca appeared right at "It hurts, you say you're my friend but you don't love me". Sheryl's 0.5-1 second flash happened at "kedo" lol Of course they're not going to interpret the OP sequence based solely on words. Even Brera's apperance came at, "I'm at my limit rather than hearing heartshaking words". I just noted that special scene of Ranka since it was very notable and matched the lyrics perfectly out of all the scenes in the OP, imo.

Originally Posted by Westlo

No she hasn't, you're looking at this through Ranka goggles. Even if you're right how come the person who has more screen time is listed third? Care to explain? Also it seems you can't admit that they are even leads, why is that? You seem to be one of the few people who seem to think Ranka is the Shana of this series while Sheryl is the Yoshida.

Only if you can explain why Ranka was listed second in the official Main Page and in the magazines.

I still don't think Sheryl had more screentime. To me, I felt like Kawamori even bastardized her character in the first episode. That's probably why Ranka got all the love. We can go over the first episode and manually time the appearances of the characters but let's not ^^ The reason why I don't see the two as even is because Ranka's character seems to be prioritized here more than Sheryl. Like in episode 10, Sheryl got her kiss scene with Alto only because Ranka needed that boost to do the role and realize her feelings. In episode 8, Sheryl was made to steal the scene so that Ranka would look like a washed out puppy and pull a pity party with the baby Vajra enabling her to meet Brera. In episode 7, the earring Sheryl gave to Alto only served as a transmitter so that Brera can hear Ranka's voice. Alto didn't even contact Sheryl personally after he lost the earring. Sheryl had to hunt him down. You think he'd care about it enough after smiling at it constantly in his cockpit. That's prolly just how Alto is, but I still feel like the only important thing about Sheryl's earring is not the symbol of the earring itself, but the stone attached to it.

I see the two as both female protagonists, but in terms of importance, Ranka has more to offer. Again, I don't dislike Sheryl. I'm just stating why I see Ranka more as the female lead here. The roles are not even.

Originally Posted by Westlo

Also why do you keep mocking people using Kawamori preferences as a hint to the final pairing. It's like ignoring Nadal's Clay court record and predicting Federer was going to win the French Open the other day. If a guy shows he prefers something over and over again over 25 years it's smart to not ignore it unless they completely change styles.

I am not mocking people I just don't agree with the 'idea' of a sudden turnaround from the left field with nothing to base it from other than the big 'Kawamori history'. This is my first Macross series, so I'm not fully informed about this Macross history and Kawamori's preference, but I'd like to think Kawamori's just like any other outstanding writers out there who pays attention to consistency. Also, if you say Kawamori prefers stronger women, then I believe Ranka is starting to fit the bill as well more and more.

[Westlo]

Why wouldn't the famous love triangle (In the Macross universe we now have the DYRL Movie and the Triangler TV series) from Macross have a place here especially since they look like replicating it here in some form? Like I've said a few times I expect too see Triangler the tv show at some time this series.

Only if you can explain why Ranka was listed second in the official Main Page and in the magazines.

Cuz she's mooooooooooe ^________^ Now why is Sheryl listed second in episodes that aren't Ranka centric, even 6 episodes where Ranka has more screentime than her according to you? If the cast order isn't important why does everyone below the major 3 continually shift around every episode depending on their importance to said episode?

Alto didn't even contact Sheryl personally after he lost the earring.

Than how did she know he lost it? In case you need a reminder Sheryl brought the earring up first (something like you treat me like this even though lost my earring) in episode 8. Another reminder is that Ranka couldn't visit Alto when he was getting a check up.. I assume he rang Sheryl and told her while in hospital.. A week could have passed between that battle and the school day during episode 8.

In episode 7, the earring Sheryl gave to Alto only served as a transmitter so that Brera can hear Ranka's voice.

No no you're rewriting the episode to suit your needs here, the only voice that was going at that time was Sheryl's. I thought that was painfully obvious since they focused on Sheryl hand reaching out as if to pull Alto back from the brink.... (which is what the signing did). Ranka joined in once it hit the chorus.... a duet isn't always singing every line together... And c'mon lets be real we only heard Ranka because it was cool, as if her voice carrier across the screaming crowd and the concert hall speakers to resonate through the earring along with Sheryl's voice No one in the audience was looking at her after the song finished, hearing there two voices together was more symbolic than anything else.

Also you're forgetting the Brera/Grace connection so that's why he recognized that voice... how would he recognize the singing voice of Ranka who he hasn't met for what was it 10 years?

I see the two as both female protagonists, but in terms of importance, Ranka has more to offer. Again, I don't dislike Sheryl. I'm just stating why I see Ranka more as the female lead here. The roles are not even.

It's funny how you don't see them as even when I see so many Ranka fans crying about Sheryl taking over the show and dominating it. Actually let me ask you this so I can get a sample on what you consider even. Noe and Hiromi... even yes/no?

I am not mocking people I just don't agree with the 'idea' of a sudden turnaround from the left field with nothing to base it from other than the big 'Kawamori history'. This is my first Macross series, so I'm not fully informed about this Macross history and Kawamori's preference, but I'd like to think Kawamori's just like any other outstanding writers out there who pays attention to consistency.

I fail to see how a Sheryl ending wouldn't mean the show isn't consistent, you keep saying this but you don't actually tell us why you think that. I'm sure whatever argument you come up with could be covered by personal character growth instead of a final pairing. Also good love triangles has the one in the middle loving both and having good reasons to choose either girl so don't bet your house on it. You also used consistency as an argument in True Tears to favor your ship and a lot of good that did you since you were wrong about it. (Which you admit freely right?) What makes you right here though? What's to stop you from going I was delusional about TT/Ranka in the next shipping war we clash over in 6 months time lol?

Also, if you say Kawamori prefers stronger women, then I believe Ranka is starting to fit the bill as well more and more.

How? She's mostly been reactive this entire series, it took Sheryl's prompting to get her to go to Miss Macross, she needed a pep talk from Sheryl while @ Miss Macross, she looked for Alto at Miss Macross, she needed Michael to challenge her to sing at folmo and didn't even sing until she saw a paper plane. Sheryl's kiss in 10 was just another catalyst for her, she's getting stronger but if she's "going to get lonely and miss her hime and friends" like you keep saying she is, well that isn't strength.

[herbert]

Originally Posted by Haesslich

They're different people, with different reasons... but at the same time, both are a little crippled by their doubts, and both need a nudge in order to get going, unlike Sheryl who seems to have come pre-nudged by circumstances. I don't agree with you that Alto needs to be told that it's RIGHT to fly... but at the same time, he needed a reason to let go of his doubts and follow his instincts, which tend to be formidable... if hard on his equipment.

Sheryl, on the other hand, finds her reasons on her own... while Ranka needs to be given them, or at least have her thinking nudged in that direction. That's why I say Alto and Ranka are more alike in their doubts than Alto is like Sheryl in terms of his willingness to embrace the unknown, since he didn't really do so, unlike Sheryl. Or at least, he doesn't do it as willingly as her.

Now I can see where our opinions part. I guess there are three points.

1st, we both agree Alto needs a reason to fly but disagree on what the reason is about. I think he needs the reason because he is not fully convinced that he makes right decision to choose flying. My impression is based on two scenes. 1) in ep2, Micheal tell him that he chooses to join SMS as a mean of escapade just like he chooses flying. Alto denies but in a way too violent to be considered as being confident in heart. 2) he asks why people choose to fly. By asking this question, he shows his confusion on whether he is right to choose flying. I'm not sure how you interpret these two cases so please allowing me to ask you some questions. If he doesn't need reasons to justify his passion of flying then what does he need reasons for? Also you said, "he needed a reason to let go of his doubts and follow his instincts." I wonder if he already fully believe in the correctness of his decision on following his instincts, which is flying, then how can he still have doubts?

2nd, you believe Ranka is in need of reasons but I disagree. In my opinion, Ranka needs no reason but more courage (or belief on her own power). She knows from begining she wants to be like Sheryl and discovers her want of being heard at ep3. Unlike Alto being uncertain on choosing to fly, Ranka never doubt she is right to sing only doubt if she can sing well so she keeps saying sth like "well, for me, it's certainly impossible."

3rd, combining above two, you observed that they behave similiarly, both burdened by their internal doubts. I agree on this. However, based on these observations, you furthur claimed that they are similar. Now, I disagree. This conclusion is too broad and too general. In this case, you can simply say Sheryl dosen't seem to have any doubt but Ranka and Alto obviously have so Ranka and Alto are resembled to each other. In another case, increasing the observations to all characters in MF or all anime characters or all people in the real world, can you say again everyone with doubts is similar to Ranka and Alto and who free from doubts are akin to Sheryl?

So far I gather that Alto and Ranka both have doubts but their roots of doubts are different so they are different, totally different. Also, I reach my conclusion that Alto and Sheryl are same kind of animal (I'm very fond of the expression...) through a different approach. In my approach, Alto is a Sheryl hasn't firmly set her goal and Sheryl is an Alto has already set his goal firmly. I get this impression from how they reach their set target. Once they decide something must be done, neither Alto nor Sheryl would care anything else other than having the something done, even to a extent in which their attempts may endanger their lives. This courage (or stupidness?) isn't shared by most people and definitely not by Ranka. To make my opinions more clear, I must emphasize that I didn't look at their capabilities on interpreting their situations and internal wants when I said they are similar, I rather focused on their mindsets.

Originally Posted by ani_d

For the umpteenth time, I know this song was written for Misa Hayase, but if you read the whole thing, it actually relates to Ranka as well. And I don't mean any sarcasm to this but, anyone knows why they put an SDF Macross song for Macross Frontier?

When have people told you this song is for Misa? I only remember people told you is for original triangle. Why is not for Minmey? Last time I checked she is one of the 3 and that part fits her perfectly.

Ehh... I wonder what does 25th Anniversary mean to you or you ever realise how many homages has already made towards original Macross along other Macross shows created during the 25 years.

Originally Posted by ani_d

Only if you can explain why Ranka was listed second in the official Main Page and in the magazines.

I am not well informed on that part. Maybe they wanted to keep audiences in dark concerning Sheryl's character as long as possible so people could go through a dramatic change of opinions on her like many posters here did.



@ Westlo
One advice. Let go it.

Do what our queen has done in ep1. Once realise it's something you can't help then don't push it.

[Tak]

Heh, I thought this was about love triangles, but its beginning not to look like it...

- Tak

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by herbert

Now I can see where our opinions part. I guess there are three points.

1st, we both agree Alto needs a reason to fly but disagree on what the reason is about. I think he needs the reason because he is not fully convinced that he makes right decision to choose flying. My impression is based on two scenes. 1) in ep2, Micheal tell him that he chooses to join SMS as a mean of escapade just like he chooses flying. Alto denies but in a way too violent to be considered as being confident in heart. 2) he asks why people choose to fly. By asking this question, he shows his confusion on whether he is right to choose flying. I'm not sure how you interpret these two cases so please allowing me to ask you some questions. If he doesn't need reasons to justify his passion of flying then what does he need reasons for? Also you said, "he needed a reason to let go of his doubts and follow his instincts." I wonder if he already fully believe in the correctness of his decision on following his instincts, which is flying, then how can he still have doubts?

I don't think he needs a reason to fly. He is sort of like Shin from Macross Zero. Someone with a natural love of flying. I think he is completely convinced that flying is the right choice for him. The problem he has is that others don't understand this. Micheal calling his flying just an escapade shows how people view his choice. They don't see why he gave up a promising acting career for flying. His decision is questioned numerous times. This is why he gets angry because he can't make people understand. He asks "why people chose to fly" to find words to understand why it is he loves to fly and a way to explain it to others. This one of the major reasons he doesn't talk about his past or open up often. Alto cares alot about how others view him. He wouldn't get angry at them calling him "Hime" or questioning his career choice if he didn't.

2nd, you believe Ranka is in need of reasons but I disagree. In my opinion, Ranka needs no reason but more courage (or belief on her own power). She knows from begining she wants to be like Sheryl and discovers her want of being heard at ep3. Unlike Alto being uncertain on choosing to fly, Ranka never doubt she is right to sing only doubt if she can sing well so she keeps saying sth like "well, for me, it's certainly impossible."

I agree. Ranka needs more courage. She depends on others opinions too much.

3rd, combining above two, you observed that they behave similiarly, both burdened by their internal doubts. I agree on this. However, based on these observations, you furthur claimed that they are similar. Now, I disagree. This conclusion is too broad and too general. In this case, you can simply say Sheryl dosen't seem to have any doubt but Ranka and Alto obviously have so Ranka and Alto are resembled to each other. In another case, increasing the observations to all characters in MF or all anime characters or all people in the real world, can you say again everyone with doubts is similar to Ranka and Alto and who free from doubts are akin to Sheryl?

I wouldn't go so far as to say Sheryl is without doubts. She's definitely someone who acts impulsively. This can be a double-edged sword though as I don't believe Alto is always assumed by her antics and sometimes her actions can cause unnecessary problems.

So far I gather that Alto and Ranka both have doubts but their roots of doubts are different so they are different, totally different. Also, I reach my conclusion that Alto and Sheryl are same kind of animal (I'm very fond of the expression...) through a different approach. In my approach, Alto is a Sheryl hasn't firmly set her goal and Sheryl is an Alto has already set his goal firmly. I get this impression from how they reach their set target. Once they decide something must be done, neither Alto nor Sheryl would care anything else other than having the something done, even to a extent in which their attempts may endanger their lives. This courage (or stupidness?) isn't shared by most people and definitely not by Ranka. To make my opinions more clear, I must emphasize that I didn't look at their capabilities on interpreting their situations and internal wants when I said they are similar, I rather focused on their mindsets.

I believe that Alto acts to change people opinions of him towards one of his preference while Sheryl doesn't care of others opinion of her. Ranka doesn't know what she wants to be like so she tries to shape herself into what she believes others want her to be.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by ani_d

Hmm...I think Ranka and Alto's doubts are similar enough. I'm probably reinstating what Haesslich already said here but the two characters did start out having not enough faith in themselves. Ranka's doubt stems from her inability to shine brighter (ep 3), while Alto's stems from from his inability to fly higher (ep 1). Sheryl, on the other hand, NEVER doubted herself. There's a big difference here in terms of 'inner doubt'. Sheryl's vulnerable moment wasn't even about herself, but about Galaxy's welfare or her earrings. We haven't shown any 'inner doubt' coming from Sheryl actually. If there's a particular scene pointing to this, then please enlighten me. Though I do agree with you that the three did depend (directly and indirectly) on each other at times.

In episode one, Alto's inability to fly higher is a restriction placed on him by the ceiling on Frontier's artificial sky. Later, in episode six, he tells Sheryl that he dislikes ships like Frontier based on the fact that they don't have a proper sky. Sheryl affirms that it's very much like Alto to say such a thing.

This is not Alto's self doubt at work; rather, it's his desire to be free.

Let's visit the Deculture version of episode one for a moment, since shows an extended version of Alto's very first scene. While Alto folds a paper airplane out of a poster of Sheryl, Luca runs a simulation in which he plans a triple loop into a steep climb, for the performance. Alto interjects, saying that if it were him, he'd do five. When Michael points out that the risk is too high, Alto affirms that he can do it, with absolute certainty in his voice. Alto then launches the paper airplane into the sky and soars on after it (this is where the non-Deculture version joins in, just as we see Alto taking off towards the paper airplane). Even during the performance, Alto attempts to pull off a corkscrew because he is confident that he can do it, even though he is warned not to (this one isn't shown in the Deculture version). But regardless of what you consider to be "canon", there's at least one scene in each version that shows that Alto has a strong belief in himself, as far as his flying is concerned.

I think Alto's doubts start to show only once he hits some sort of limitation. In the shelter in episode three, for example, his difficulty lies in dealing with his inability to do anything about the situation. In that sense, Sheryl's perseverance in the face of seemingly impossible odds is a quality that Alto needs to develop more of.

The threat to Galaxy touches on Sheryl's weaknesses, because it represents her roots. As Sheryl explains to Alto in episode six, she hated Galaxy because she had to live there without any relatives while growing up. But at the same time, like her earrings, it represents one of the only links to a family and a heritage that she never had the chance to know. So even though she has learned to be strong in the absence of friends and family, the threat to Galaxy threatens to take away what little she has left. That's why we see her confidence waver, in the examples mentioned in my last post.

Originally Posted by ani_d

As if episode 10 isn't fireworks enough

Episode ten had an inpirational quality about it, but remember... it's episode ten.

Originally Posted by Tak

Heh, I thought this was about love triangles, but its beginning not to look like it...

- Tak

The current discussion sprang out of a suggestion that Ranka and Alto have common ground to build a relationship based on the fact that they supposedly both lack the confidence to achieve a goal without having someone hold their hand through the ordeal. It would have been so much easier just to explain that this sort of "common ground" is not really relevant to romance in the first place, but having utterly failed in several attempts at that, my only recourse is to show that all the main characters have their moments of strength and weakness. /facepalm

Not that it isn't entertaining, of course.

[herbert]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I don't think he needs a reason to fly. He is sort of like Shin from Macross Zero. Someone with a natural love of flying. I think he is completely convinced that flying is the right choice for him. The problem he has is that others don't understand this. Micheal calling his flying just an escapade shows how people view his choice. They don't see why he gave up a promising acting career for flying. His decision is questioned numerous times. This is why he gets angry because he can't make people understand. He asks "why people chose to fly" to find words to understand why it is he loves to fly and a way to explain it to others. This one of the major reasons he doesn't talk about his past or open up often. Alto cares alot about how others view him. He wouldn't get angry at them calling him "Hime" or questioning his career choice if he didn't.

So you kill Ranka fans' last hope and give Alto a final push towards Sheryl. Now, Alto never needs Ranka who doesn't understand his 'birth right' of flying but Sheryl who is the only one understands this.

Not I agree with you. As a Sheryl biased fanboy, I'm not going to argue against a Sheryl favored opinion.

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I wouldn't go so far as to say Sheryl is without doubts. She's definitely someone who acts impulsively. This can be a double-edged sword though as I don't believe Alto is always assumed by her antics and sometimes her actions can cause unnecessary problems.

I agree. I didn't argue on this merely because I didn't want to get debate more complicated.

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I believe that Alto acts to change people opinions of him towards one of his preference while Sheryl doesn't care of others opinion of her. Ranka doesn't know what she wants to be like so she tries to shape herself into what she believes others want her to be.

Who else other than Sheryl wants her become a singer in the first place? Alto and Nanase and others only suport her because she tells them she wants to be one.

I would be pleased if you tell me it before ep4 but I only want blue-haired for her.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by herbert

So you kill Ranka fans' last hope and give Alto a final push towards Sheryl. Now, Alto never needs Ranka who doesn't understand his 'birth right' of flying but Sheryl who is the only one understands this.

Not I agree with you. As a Sheryl biased fanboy, I'm not going to argue against a Sheryl favored opinion.

I don't believe Sheryl understands in the least actually. She has said in Ep10 that she new about his past but never brought it up to him. Ranka just found out about it in Ep10. Both have a natural talent and love for singing but I think Alto case is different in that he has talent for both flying and acting. The problem is that he doesn't love acting like he does flying. That we would chose to abandon his family business and livelihood for flying is what many don't understand.

A similar situation would be following you families profession and becoming a doctor. Then when you become a successful and well known doctor deciding that you've always love racing cars. Then quit being a doctor and then become a race car driver. A lot of people you chose as foolish and probably look down on you like people often look down on Alto. I don't either girl fully understand his choice yet. The one who gets him to open up about his past will probably be the winner. Sheryl doesn't bring up his past and Ranka didn't know and has yet to bring it up.

Who else other than Sheryl wants her become a singer in the first place? Alto and Nanase and others only suport her because she tells them she wants to be one.

I would be pleased if you tell me it before ep4 but I only want blue-haired for her.

Maybe I didn't phrase it right. Ranka definitely wants to be a singer. The thing is that she depends on others opinions to decide her actions. "Should I do it?" "Am I good enough?" "What should I do?" "How should I do it?" She doesn't have the confidence to decide these things on her own.

[ani_d]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Now why is Sheryl listed second in episodes that aren't Ranka centric, even 6 episodes where Ranka has more screentime than her according to you? If the cast order isn't important why does everyone below the major 3 continually shift around every episode depending on their importance to said episode?

Cuz she's Tsundere! Newsflash. In Macross radio together with their respecitive VAs, Sheryl Nome is third in cast order lol

Originally Posted by Westlo

No no you're rewriting the episode to suit your needs here, the only voice that was going at that time was Sheryl's. I thought that was painfully obvious since they focused on Sheryl hand reaching out as if to pull Alto back from the brink.... (which is what the signing did). Ranka joined in once it hit the chorus.... a duet isn't always singing every line together... And c'mon lets be real we only heard Ranka because it was cool, as if her voice carrier across the screaming crowd and the concert hall speakers to resonate through the earring along with Sheryl's voice No one in the audience was looking at her after the song finished, hearing there two voices together was more symbolic than anything else.

Also you're forgetting the Brera/Grace connection so that's why he recognized that voice... how would he recognize the singing voice of Ranka who he hasn't met for what was it 10 years?

Infinity is no doubt Sheryl's song, only in episode 7 did they mix Ranka's voice in it exactly at the part where Brera heard a song. I'm not sure if you noticed, but the voice is dual--the ululation part. Ranka sang, Brera heard, the Earrings transmitted it (don't know how). If Sheryl is Brera's target, then how come he keeps ignoring her and is always stalking Ranka? Also, in episode 7, Sheryl played a part in getting Ranka to sing with her. Sheryl and her earrings were used as a bridge here. As soon as the earrings served its purpose, it was lost in space. lol Kawamori didn't even let it stay with Alto to be a symbol of a "bond" he and Sheryl were supposed to have.

Originally Posted by Westlo

It's funny how you don't see them as even when I see so many Ranka fans crying about Sheryl taking over the show and dominating it. Actually let me ask you this so I can get a sample on what you consider even. Noe and Hiromi... even yes/no?

That's just them being greedy. =/ Sheryl is on the precarious end of the stick here. Just because we see a "Sheryl domination" in an episode doesn't mean the Ranka becomes the background character that nobody cares about. The camera likes Ranka. lol

Are Hiromi and Noe even?

Spoiler for True tears:

Not at all. Hiromi was the center of the plot and she got the Shin. Being an emo queen pays off. Noe always had the shorter end of the stick and the show even made her cry. What's so even about that, seriously? x_x

Originally Posted by Westlo

You also used consistency as an argument in True Tears to favor your ship and a lot of good that did you since you were wrong about it. (Which you admit freely right?) What makes you right here though? What's to stop you from going I was delusional about TT/Ranka in the next shipping war we clash over in 6 months time lol?

Doesn't it make sense to choose someone who opened up your shell over your childhood friend that didn't manage to do that? It was/would've been consistent even if he chose Noe. It just wasn't enough since this is anime, and the writers spent so much screentime developing emo queen's character. I wasn't delusional, mind you. True Tears never really gave me what I want except for episode 11. I thought I was going to really get a curve ball.

Besides, with so many Ranka hints around, I'm only seeing a certain someone going bankrupt in October. ^_^

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I think Alto's doubts start to show only once he hits some sort of limitation. In the shelter in episode three, for example, his difficulty lies in dealing with his inability to do anything about the situation. In that sense, Sheryl's perseverance in the face of seemingly impossible odds is a quality that Alto needs to develop more of.

That's what I'm saying. His inner doubt shows once he sees his limitations. His common ground with Ranka is that, they both doubt themselves despite their inner strengths. Ranka aspires to be like Sheryl. Why would she aspire to be like her if she doesn't think she can do it? However, someone tells her she can't do it, she'll doubt herself. In a sense, that's her limit. The two need input from others to get encouraged.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

The threat to Galaxy touches on Sheryl's weaknesses, because it represents her roots. As Sheryl explains to Alto in episode six, she hated Galaxy because she had to live there without any relatives while growing up. But at the same time, like her earrings, it represents one of the only links to a family and a heritage that she never had the chance to know. So even though she has learned to be strong in the absence of friends and family, the threat to Galaxy threatens to take away what little she has left. That's why we see her confidence waver, in the examples mentioned in my last post.

Sheryl expressed great concern about Galaxy, but despite that she has the inner strength to move on. Just the fact that she didn't cancel her concert no matter how anxious/vulnerable she was. That's strength. Her confidence may have waver, but she can pick herself up and say "I can do this. I'm Sheryl Nome." Alto and Ranka don't think like that--or didn't start with that. I guess that's the whole point of this debacle

[Westlo]

*sigh* You never seem to answer why it would be inconsistent if Ranka doesn't get with Alto at the end, it's like you don't know but if you keep saying it over and over and over you're hoping it comes true.

Infinity is no doubt Sheryl's song, only in episode 7 did they mix Ranka's voice in it exactly at the part where Brera heard a song. I'm not sure if you noticed, but the voice is dual--the ululation part. Ranka sang, Brera heard, the Earrings transmitted it (don't know how).

I've got better headphones on now... from what my ears tell me it's all Sheryl until you hear Ranka after it showed Brera and Alto says "Song", goes back to Sheryl and than it's duet. You sure you're not mixing up the echo effect for a dual voice in those parts?

If Sheryl is Brera's target, then how come he keeps ignoring her and is always stalking Ranka?

Who said anything about Sheryl being Brera's target? Brera seems to be Galaxy's Ace Pilot, Grace is clearly high up in whatever Galaxy has been scheming. She's managing Sheryl Nome, Sheryl has hardly any past.. that's the connection, nothing to do with her being his target.

As soon as the earrings served its purpose, it was lost in space. lol Kawamori didn't even let it stay with Alto to be a symbol of a "bond" he and Sheryl were supposed to have.

The lack of a relationship crutch like that earring actually increases Sheryl's chances imo. It served it's purpose in creating a bond between the two. I'm happy that the earring is gone, I'm happy that what happens in 13 happens. As far as I'm concerned it's going according to plan.

Besides, with so many Ranka hints around, I'm only seeing a certain someone going bankrupt in October. ^_^

There's plenty of hints for both, don't be silly/blind.

Spoiler for True Tears:

but but Noe was listed 2nd in the cast, was in the op and ed more and was in more magazine scans!

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Maybe I didn't phrase it right. Ranka definitely wants to be a singer. The thing is that she depends on others opinions to decide her actions. "Should I do it?" "Am I good enough?" "What should I do?" "How should I do it?" She doesn't have the confidence to decide these things on her own.

Yes that's my major problem with her atm, she's way too reactive instead of proactive. But it's obviously going to be fixed by character growth through the rest of the series. I just hope it's done sooner than later because while I like Ranka now I don't know if I could take 14 more episodes of her asking for advice, getting told what to do and getting jealous of Sheryl and Alto.

[herbert]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I don't believe Sheryl understands in the least actually. She has said in Ep10 that she new about his past but never brought it up to him. Ranka just found out about it in Ep10. Both have a natural talent and love for singing but I think Alto case is different in that he has talent for both flying and acting. The problem is that he doesn't love acting like he does flying. That we would chose to abandon his family business and livelihood for flying is what many don't understand.

A similar situation would be following you families profession and becoming a doctor. Then when you become a successful and well known doctor deciding that you've always love racing cars. Then quit being a doctor and then become a race car driver. A lot of people you chose as foolish and probably look down on you like people often look down on Alto. I don't either girl fully understand his choice yet. The one who gets him to open up about his past will probably be the winner. Sheryl doesn't bring up his past and Ranka didn't know and has yet to bring it up.

I don't want to comment too much about Alto's family trade as we don't know the reasons make Alto quit. Without knowing this, we can't reach a conclusion. We can only look at flying now. It definitely conflicted with Alto's family trade and he definitely perfers it. And we go back to ep 5. Alto asks why people fly; Sheryl answers that it's because people are meant to. Then ep 6, Sheryl shows her understanding of Alto by agreeing that not liking closed space vessels is very Alto-like. If these are not understanding, then I don't know what is.

Of course, if you mean any girl understands Alto's present and past and future fully and thoroughly, then neither of them. But Sheryl only needs to discover some hidden areas within Alto, Ranka however needs...well, err, Ranka? Does she knows Alto at all?