Fate/Zero - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Unlike Rider, who possesses the companionship and undying loyalty of his subjects, Saber never spared a thought to motivating and inspiring her own, believing that as long as she alone sacrificed herself and followed her ideals, everyone would be saved. But in the end that just caused her people to become distrustful of her for seemingly lacking humanity, and brought her reign to the tragic conclusion which she's desperately trying to undo now.

Thus, when she saw Rider's Ionian Hettaroi and the companionship between the king and his subjects it symbolized, she began doubting herself and realizing how the way she governed ended up alienating everyone around her. Cue Lancelot, her first knight and the one who should have been the most loyal to her until the end, but has now revealed himself to be the most alienated and resentful of them all. It essentially serves as the ultimate proof that everything Rider accused her of is true, which is why she now appears to have been understandably drained her of her spirit and will to fight (that and Lancelot with Arondight seems pretty damn skilled).

It's not so much that Saber never tried inspiring her men, though she didn't, it's that she simply didn't really believe in her way of doing things.

Saber and Rider's styles of kingship are really very similar actually, they rule according to ideals and dreams, whether it's Saber's ideal of a perfect king or Rider's dream of conquest and glory. Saber's style is unselfish and giving and Rider's is selfish to the core, yet Rider has people that will answer his call even after death, and Saber's countrymen turned on her. Normally, you'd expect the reverse, and I'm sure Saber did, which is what hit her so hard about Ionian Hetaroi. Rider was able to inspire people and Saber couldn't, even if she had tried. It's because Rider really and truly believes in what he's doing and that can't help but inspire people; Rider can inspire people without even trying ( I don't think he was trying on purpose with Waver after all).

It's the opposite of Saber. Even if she believes that the way she did things was right, she doesn't really believe in it, it was just duty to her, and nobody is going to be inspired by that, no matter how righteous it may seem. As Rider said, the king needs to be more real than anyone else, and that's were Saber failed, she didn't put herself on the line, she hid her true self away, because that was how she could function, doing something that she just doesn't believe in.

If I had to make a guess as to the exact nature of Berserker's begrudging madness, I would say it is the result of Lancelot having lived on after Arturia's downfall (isn't that usually how it goes in the Arthurian legend?) and having had to clean up after and deal with the consequences of Britain's tragic fate, thus being scorned by the same people who shunned Arturia, for being her first knight, until the end of his consequently miserable life. But we'll know for sure in the next episode, assuming they don't rush the explanation too much.

In the version I heard, Lancelot retired to a hermitage after Arthur died, so it wasn't people. The light novel gave an excellent answer.

[whatbob1]

I'm pretty sure in all versions of King Arthur's history, it was Lancelot that caused the destruction of the round table and ultimately Arthur's downfall.

So if anything it should be Saber going berserk when she sees him .

But it'll be explained all next week.

[Humbaba]

This whole damned episode. I think the last time I felt all those emotions was when I watched Gurren Lagann or Kaiba.
Perfect for me, not only that there is nothing better for me in this world than bro-scenes, the characters it was about are also two of my all-time favorites..
Especially the scene when Gil used Ea and everything, Rider's army and world fell apart and the scene where he was running against the swords of the Gate of Babylon really hit me. It was so unusal to see some big and strong king like Alexander falling from the horse and running like as a lonely man towards his dream with all those wounds and this while smiling.
Atleast he found his Okeanos in the end. Great episode, 10/10 for me.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Endscape

It's not so much that Saber never tried inspiring her men, though she didn't, it's that she simply didn't really believe in her way of doing things.

Saber and Rider's styles of kingship are really very similar actually, they rule according to ideals and dreams, whether it's Saber's ideal of a perfect king or Rider's dream of conquest and glory. Saber's style is unselfish and giving and Rider's is selfish to the core, yet Rider has people that will answer his call even after death, and Saber's countrymen turned on her. Normally, you'd expect the reverse, and I'm sure Saber did, which is what hit her so hard about Ionian Hetaroi. Rider was able to inspire people and Saber couldn't, even if she had tried. It's because Rider really and truly believes in what he's doing and that can't help but inspire people; Rider can inspire people without even trying ( I don't think he was trying on purpose with Waver after all).

It's the opposite of Saber. Even if she believes that the way she did things was right, she doesn't really believe in it, it was just duty to her, and nobody is going to be inspired by that, no matter how righteous it may seem. As Rider said, the king needs to be more real than anyone else, and that's were Saber failed, she didn't put herself on the line, she hid her true self away, because that was how she could function, doing something that she just doesn't believe in.

Um, what? Saber didn't believe in her way? The whole point of her character is that her ideals are illusory yet are still sustained by her faith in them alone. It's what causes the Excalibur's majestic light and the cleansing effect it has on the heroes who gaze upon it.

Her tragic flaw is that she sought a utopian kingdom where everyone would be protected (which is where she's similar to Kiritsugu despite their adversity towards each other), but by clinging too deeply to that ideal she ended up neglecting that which makes up a kingdom - its people. It's not the fact that her heart wasn't in it that caused her downfall (because it was, even if it was the only one), but rather the fact that she went on to misguidedly play the role of the martyr, when it was a leader her country needed. Consequently, even though her quest was one of self-sacrifice, the only one who was saved by the whole ordeal was herself, because, up until Rider and now Lancelot came along, she always believed she was doing the right thing.

Hence the impact the current Lancelot seems to be having on her. But I'm fairly confident that even her current wavering faith in her ideals will be restored by the end of their fight, as Lancelot will probably find redemption and salvation in Excalibur's light, much like Caster did. Because even though her ideals, which are personified in her sword, are but a dream, the conviction she puts upon them is very much real and thus it is still able to affect those who witness it greatly.

Originally Posted by whatbob1

I'm pretty sure in all versions of King Arthur's history, it was Lancelot that caused the destruction of the round table and ultimately Arthur's downfall.

So if anything it should be Saber going berserk when she sees him .

Well yeah, but like I said the Guinevere scenario gets just a tad trickier with a female Arthur. I'm sure that whatever explanation this version of Lancelot goes for is bound to be an interesting one though.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Um, what? Saber didn't believe in her way? The whole point of her character is that her ideals are illusory yet are still sustained by her faith in them alone. It's what causes the Excalibur's majestic light and the cleansing effect it has on the heroes who gaze upon it.

To be fair, she did falter once, and it cost her Caliburn.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Well yeah, but like I said the Guinevere scenario gets just a tad trickier with a female Arthur. I'm sure that whatever explanation this version of Lancelot goes for is bound to be an interesting one though.

I'd say it's actually less tricky, and more believable, with a female Arthur whom everyone but Merlin and Gawain believed to be male.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

(that and Lancelot with Arondight seems pretty damn skilled).

Probably cause of Madness Enhancement + Arondight = 2 rank increase.

Originally Posted by John117xCortana

That look in Gil's eyes when he confronted Waver. Was it respect ? There wasn't really a trace of malice in them...

"The path of devotion is a great labor. Do not ever mar it."

He had no reason to raise his hand against a mongrel who was neither Master nor traitor. That was his decision as the King.


...

Right before Archer changed his mind, he had truly had the intent to kill Waver. The killing intent he released as naturally as breathing had wordlessly announced that. Had Waver averted his eyes, or collapsed with fear, or choked in his reply, that would have truly happened.

If one was to sneer at how he had only begged for his life, then one simply did not know of the remorselessness of the King of Heroes.

[ars89]

Wow best ep! Oh man Saber ha to face her right-hand man. Rider shall never be forgotten, couldn't help but cry.

[bhl88]

I watched the same scene 9000 and 1 times XD

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

That too. In fact, when I hear people say Urobuchi must hate characters like Kariya due to the cruel fates he creates for them, I feel as if they're really misunderstanding the method to his madness. The way I see it, those characters are the ones he loves most (in an admittedly somewhat twisted way, of course), which is why he selects them as the biggest representatives of his skillful dissection of the human nature.

It's no wonder he likes Kirei so much as a character, since the latter possesses a similarly twisted love for humanity as well.

Go back and watch ep13 (or is it 12?) and the philosophy from Ryunosuke describes Urobuchi perfectly. Only in the circumstances more dire would you see the brightest light in your characters. The difference is that plot armour doesn't mean much in his stories.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by jeroz

Go back and watch ep13 (or is it 12?) and the philosophy from Ryunosuke describes Urobuchi perfectly. Only in the circumstances more dire would you see the brightest light in your characters. The difference is that plot armour doesn't mean much in his stories.

It's 13, yeah, I remember the scene, and it was indeed a spot-on pseudo-forth wall breaking description of how Urobuchi must look at his creations.

But as far as a self-insert character for the author goes, I would still handpick Kirei here. And Kyuubey for Madoka, of course.

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by bhl88

Probably cause of Madness Enhancement + Arondight = 2 rank increase.

I think there's a clause that you can't use both at the same time since Arondight clears the mad enhance. Not sure so we'll see next episode maybe.

[GDB]

It looked like all it cleared was the black mist. He still seemed very much berserk.

[Allium]

One of the best episodes in the second season, so far. The Rider vs Gilgamesh battle was nothing but superb, and I was glued to the screen from the beginning to the end of their fight. Although it was quite obvious that Gilgamesh would emerge victorious, Rider still kept on going (dat scene of him running through the falling swords from GoB) and his spirit remained strong and dignified until the very end, leading to his honorable death. You will be missed, Rider.

Other than the action, that battle also gave us more insight into the characters involved, particularly that of Gilgamesh, who clearly respects the King Of Conquerors a lot. It's a side rarely shown by the King of Heroes, so seeing him in that manner was slightly surprising. There was no hint of his usual arrogance during his interactions with Rider; even when Rider was dying, he offered to share 'his garden' with him. Also, in the novel, Gilgamesh approached Waver with a clear intent of killing him, but in this episode, none of that killing intent was visible as he went towards Waver.

On the other hand, Saber finally learns of Berserker's identity, revealed to be Lancelot, and her discovery instantly crushes her spirit, reducing her to Urobuchi-esque despair. And at the end, Kiritsugu and Kirei draw nearer to each other, building up to their showdown in the coming episodes.

[zRyuu]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

I think there's a clause that you can't use both at the same time since Arondight clears the mad enhance. Not sure so we'll see next episode maybe.

I remember something about not being able to use KoH after Lancelot releases Arondight.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Forgot to talk about Kariya. If anyone still had doubts about his brain function being severely impaired and that he wasn't really himself when he strangled Aoi, such doubts should have been dispelled here IMO. I mean, he still believes in and is following Kirei, even after that ridiculously obvious setup in the church. That definitely shows just how out of it the poor guy is (they still seem to be going soft on his appearance and the effects of Berserker's strain on him). And now he's hallucinating about Sakura and a spiteful Aoi, probably being plagued further by subconscious guilty. That dying in a blaze of glory end some people were predicting before becomes more unlikely by the minute.

This is spelled aloud in the novels (brain not being completely functional) only blinded bashers would deny what's plain in text.

Originally Posted by Xagzan

Has it already been revealed how Saber's ideals and rule are responsible for Lancelot's state? Because everyone seems to have understood it. Was it something that was hinted at during the kings' symposium episode, which I admittedly don't remember perfectly?

Unless the chop it and leave this for the boxset, it should explain it in detail next episode.

Anyway, I notice the contrast between Saber's and Rider's way of kingship is a point in the scenes of this episode. They are purposefully showing how Rider inspires love, devotion, hope even in defeat and death for the future, transcending time among his followers (this includes Waver). He's satisified in the end, he dies by discovering his Oceanus which is so awe-inspiring even Gilgamesh gave him respect. While poor Saber had her most loyal knight follow her and twisted in regret, hatred, rage and despair. Ouch.

Originally Posted by Endscape

Saber and Rider's styles of kingship are really very similar actually, they rule according to ideals and dreams, whether it's Saber's ideal of a perfect king or Rider's dream of conquest and glory. Saber's style is unselfish and giving and Rider's is selfish to the core, yet Rider has people that will answer his call even after death, and Saber's countrymen turned on her.

More than selfish vs selfless (because Rider did want to make his men happy ), it's accepting and embracing human nature (with all the flaws and virtues it involves) while another is kill the nature in hopes to reach a lofty ideal of what makes a person (or a king).

Rider never claimed to be other than a man and a king. It was human, that's why his major treasure aren't the lands, aren't the possessions, or the ideals, but his followers and the bonds he forged with them (this was true conquest). Saber aimed to an idea of perfection that lose the sight of her own humanity. People couldn't identify with her anymore. This isn't to say her way is wrong, but if she expected loyalty by prioritizing ideals? That's a little naive.

He and Saber learned to tone down a little of their extremes (Rider sacrificed for the sake of Waver and FSN for Saber which I can't spoil) which led to character development. All thanks to their Masters (heh Manga version of F/Z has Rider and Waver meeting with the "Are you my Master?" pose).

[vansonbee]

This episode was a disappoint for me. Alexander fight with Gil was one sided and only goes to show how overpowered Gil is.

I had hope that Alex commanders were shown and maybe fight off Gil missile weapon attacks. What was worst was Alex fighting capabilities. I understand he is a huge person, but his last final frontal assault vs. Gil was obvious who would win. Alexander was a cool character, he always lack maneuverability. I think Hercules was more agile than he was.

Lancerlot looks like the creepy caster... I hope we get a small origin story next episode.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Thess

Anyway, I notice the contrast between Saber's and Rider's way of kingship is a point in the scenes of this episode. They are purposefully showing how Rider inspires love, devotion, hope even in defeat and death for the future, transcending time among his followers (this includes Waver). He's satisified in the end, he dies by discovering his Oceanus which is so awe-inspiring even Gilgamesh gave him respect. While poor Saber had her most loyal knight follow her and twisted in regret, hatred, rage and despair. Ouch.

Yeah, the whole three kings dynamic was in full force in this episode and it was fascinating to watch as usual. I liked how, much like how Rider wanted to awake Saber from her dream, Gilgamesh too brought it upon himself to be the one to awake Rider from his own dream. It begs the question, what about Gil's dream? Well, he's already awoken from it a long time ago. And that just might be why he is perhaps the truest king.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by zRyuu

I remember something about not being able to use KoH after Lancelot releases Arondight.

Originally Posted by GDB

It looked like all it cleared was the black mist. He still seemed very much berserk.

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

I think there's a clause that you can't use both at the same time since Arondight clears the mad enhance. Not sure so we'll see next episode maybe.

Knight of Honor (the mastery of all weapons when using that weapon) and For Someone Else's Glory (the black fog that makes him CG and blocks all of his stats plus the transformation skill) is blocked while he uses Arondight, so yes, he did get a two rank increase. One from Madness Enhancement.

It is Berserker's true Noble Phantasm, which seals For Someone's Glory and Knight of Honor once it is drawn.

[MasterVampire]

As much as I love Rider he really is an idiot.

Charges Saber with no real plan and looses his chariot.
Charges Archer and looses his life.

He needs to plan.

[bhl88]

@Master: He already knows that he's outclassed . So charge and go out with a bang.