[Manga] Naruto Chapter 658 Discussion Thread

[Zenex]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

I'm not so sure this is weird. senju+uchiha powers/chakra = sage of six. the ninja that took on the 10 tails alone and likely taking some physical damage doing so. madara should be this tough right?

just like with young obito

he formed susanoo again at the last second. you can see the broken sword in one of the panels

shukaku's tail caused wind blades. i think that what kurama meant when he yelled at him.

kakashi gaiden much? sasuke only rested after his surgery because he was already wiped out

susanoo power!!! idk lol

susanoo is essentially a summon (that feeds off the users chakra i think). the contract was made when madara obtained the double mangekyou. as long as he still has his chakra he should be able to summon susanoo

i think he knows what he is doing

To be honest I feel bad for die hard fans. They keep trying to come up with whatever they can to explain kishi logic or lack there of. Yes, we can all come up with the long shot maybe what if but the point is you should not have to if logic was used in anway.

- I would like to see where obito formed instantly because from what i remember he was layed up for a while and then spiral zetsu became like his armor. So he did not use pieces of him at the start he was just cloaked inside him. but i could be wrong because that was a while ago and I will not claim an answer im not sure of.

- i see the broken piece you talking about but that does not account for the first 9 huge shots he took without it being bashed around like a ball in a pinball machine between them all. but no damage from that and still easily has the stability to form susanoo after all that

- you think, That is the point and another one of those well what if. Kishi should have shown in detail a moment like that and how it happened not just poof its their try and figure out how.

- was he wiped out. sasuke walked of the battle feild and tho tired he was not at exhaustion in anyway. This is another half ass explination to cover kishi ass the best you can. It could also be said with his new hashi regen powers the eye insta healed inside his head without surgery just shoved in there and nothing connected inside it did it itself.

- again another I don't know.

- Since wheeeeeeeen is susanoo essentially a summon and when was there a contract made. Seriously you cannot just make stuff up. Susanoo is a jutsu used but double ms users. Same as tsykiomi and amaterasu and kamui and all of them. there is no blood drawn and summon seal used in anway so don't go spoutting crap like that.

I think he knows what he is doing aswell he just has a big issue with doing it logically and portraying his ideas to the fans. This war arc he bit off more he can chew because he cannot balance it all out and tell it properly which is why so many people are starting to not tolerate it anymore.

[itachi-san314]

the big difference in eye replacement between madara and prior ones is having someone else there. rin was a medic ninja to connect everything for kakashi and we can just assume that zetsu helped implant itachi's eyes into sasuke (or obito could have done it too i guess) but madara just stuffed the eye into his head. no attachment of anything needed. it's pretty dumb.

as for madara dodging while blind, it's not that horrible. sage naruto would close his eyes to pinpoint chakra. madara is just better at it and can sense everyone's chakra all around him right after absorbing hashi's nature chakra

[Zenex]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

the big difference in eye replacement between madara and prior ones is having someone else there. rin was a medic ninja to connect everything for kakashi and we can just assume that zetsu helped implant itachi's eyes into sasuke (or obito could have done it too i guess) but madara just stuffed the eye into his head. no attachment of anything needed. it's pretty dumb.

as for madara dodging while blind, it's not that horrible. sage naruto would close his eyes to pinpoint chakra. madara is just better at it and can sense everyone's chakra all around him right after absorbing hashi's nature chakra

that is what i am saying it's the stuffing of the eye that is messed up i could accept without issues if he had it implanted through a surgery and then healed instantly from the hashi insta heal.

As for the vision your explination is nice my thoughts were also that he can still see out of the rinnegan in tobito. rinnegan vission is linked and if he can still use the rin. techs to absorb and susanoo without sharingan then maybe is vision is still linked to the rin. wherever it is.

My problem is not what happens because it is anime there is an accepted amount of crazyness that applies because it is a cartoon not real life. Its the consistency of the logic set forth by yourself. if one guy need surgery to get an eye transplant then they all do you should not have one guy need it then the other guy just stuff it in because it makes no sense.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Zenex

Its the consistency of the logic set forth by yourself. if one guy need surgery to get an eye transplant then they all do you should not have one guy need it then the other guy just stuff it in because it makes no sense.

that's what i just said...

[Zenex]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it's not a summon. it's the materialization of the user's chakra. so i guess it makes sense that once it's achieved with mangekyou, the user could use it in the future without their eyes since it's not really an ocular power, it's a body/chakra power

if that is all it is then susanoo should be able to be used by anyone with chakra control.

people need to stop making excuses for kishi and filling in the huge gaps he leaves.

yes we can all woulda shoulda coulda till the cows came home but fact is he should show and explain things not just poof here it is see if you can find a way to make sense of it

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Zenex

if that is all it is then susanoo should be able to be used by anyone with chakra control.

no. it requires the MS to activate it in the first place. not only that, but it's one of the highest level techniques there is. not even all MSs awaken it

[Zenex]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

no. it requires the MS to activate it in the first place. not only that, but it's one of the highest level techniques there is. not even all MSs awaken it

but you said its just a manifestation of chakra...well every has chakra and some have perfect mastery of it so without the sharingan thats really all it is then anyone should do it..

being able to perform a jutsu without the tool is retarded so stop making excuses for kishi

thats like being able to use jutsu without hand seals because you have used them before.

or draw a sword anytime because you have carried one before.

the sharingan is what activates the susanoo up until now then bang aspull because it was needed and kishi give less fucks then anyone in the world. Do I really care the answer is no manga is a hobby not a need but I am not gonna overlook and accept asspulls blindly [snip] and make excuses for a guy who should have a grip on his own story not just do what seems good at the time.

that is like someone who has no real conviction and just says what is convienient to either avoid trouble or fit in.I enjoy naruto so I read it tho bottom line

still im willing to bet if naruto grew hands out of his ass and made a rasengan and used it to fly people like you would find a way to explain it for kishi

" Oh well you see naruto has know rasengan and when kakashi used thousand year of death he activated narutos ass hand and now naruto has learned to use them and rasengan uses rotation to technically it could be used as a helicopter to help him fly and hover in place." or some shit like that


Here is a question would you accept obito useing kamui without his sharingan. it activated already? why did obito not take both rinnegan and only use one if he did not need his sharingan to use kamui anymore?

or lemme guess that is different then this.

how about sasuke using amaterasu or itachi using tsukiomi. or danzo and shisui usin koto. alll without sharingan because they used it once. is all that make sense to?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Zenex

that is what i am saying it's the stuffing of the eye that is messed up i could accept without issues if he had it implanted through a surgery and then healed instantly from the hashi insta heal.

I don't see why it's a problem that Madara can use his eye instantly, the man has Hashirama's insane magical regeneration now. He can casually tank being stabbed, shot by Gaara's sand, take a flurry of blows from the Bijuu and reattach an arm to his stub on the fly.
His eye is no different, the optic nerves were regenerated instantly like the rest.

edit:
About Susanoo while I initially didn't think it made much sense I just remembered that Itachi could also use it even after he was blind. It requires a complete mastery of their Kekkai Genkai but perhaps the eyes aren't necessary once mastered since the jutsu isn't originated from them.

[Zenex]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I don't see why it's a problem that Madara can use his eye instantly, the man has Hashirama's insane magical regeneration now. He can casually tank being stabbed, shot by Gaara's sand, take a flurry of blows from the Bijuu and reattach an arm to his stub on the fly.
His eye is no different, the optic nerves were regenerated instantly like the rest.

its jsut to far fetched to me. everyone else has needed surgery to connect all these things but madara just jam it in like a plug in a socket and it works...

Like I said previously it is not that im oppose to that logic of plug and play eyeballs because every manga makes its own universe with its own logic and reasoning but to create your own mangaverse and logic and then just throw it all out the window because you would rather do that then keep track of your own series then its time to stop.

Originally Posted by Hunter

edit:
About Susanoo while I initially didn't think it made much sense I just remembered that Itachi could also use it even after he was blind. It requires a complete mastery of their Kekkai Genkai but perhaps the eyes aren't necessary once mastered since the jutsu isn't originated from them.

itachi never went blind he got close and very blurry vision but never went blind. Even if he did go blind he still has the eyes. People seem to accept this garbage like if they dont they cannot keep watching naruto so better act like it makes sense.

Im gonna watch it till its dont but am still pissed with the logic.

Like I said susanoo is as much an ms tech as amaterasu and tskyiomi and koto. and kamui etc... so if all these tech are usuable without the eyes then why did obito not take both rinnegan when he had them. as it should not have effected hi kamui. and kakashi the sharingan sucks his chakra constantly so why not chuck the eye since he does not need it to use any of its techs.

sharingan copies abilities and tracks movement etc.... again just as much of a tech as the rest so clearly the eye is not needed for that aswell

same as izanai and izanami why is sharingan needed once learned why did danzo need uchiha eyes....he should have just had reg eyes and sacrificed them with a tech he already mastered when he had it.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Zenex

its jsut to far fetched to me. everyone else has needed surgery to connect all these things but madara just jam it in like a plug in a socket and it works...

Well lets go back to the first funny "medical" thing:
in the Kakashi gaiden a 12 years old girl could transplant an eye in minutes using just a first aid kit
On the other hand here we are talking about a guy who achieved the greatest thing known to ninja: he reached the level of the Sage of 6 paths.

Originally Posted by Zenex

but to create your own mangaverse and logic and then just throw it all out the window because you would rather do that then keep track of your own series then its time to stop.

In these kind of continous level up manga where there's always a more powerful level and new abilities it is natural that the rules set up for one level do not apply to the next one. It has been like this from the beginning and now that we are in the grand finale the power level has reached that of the Sage of 6 paths, which according to the legend was the absolute top level of the ninja world, being the source of all power/abilities/chakra. So its just natural that when you face this godlike power then the laws applied to average ninja do not apply any more.

BTW Madara being so slowly upgraded (one chapter with no eyes, one chapter with 1 eye, this will continue i guess) reminds me of Freeza and Cell being slowly upgraded. A simple plot device to drag on the battle

But what i find disturbing in this sort of chapters (it has happened before this war too) is how conveniently people sometimes forget to use their power to kill the enemy even if minutes before and/or after they can and are willing to use that power. For instance why is it that the hokages didn't use their powers to attack Madara, why is it that Sasuke didn't use Susano to crush Madara, why isn't Naruto fast enough to hit Madara, why is nobody in the army doing anything useful, etc... I know the plot requires this to happen, but it should be done in a less obvious way.

[Zenex]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Well lets go back to the first funny "medical" thing:
in the Kakashi gaiden a 12 years old girl could transplant an eye in minutes using just a first aid kit
On the other hand here we are talking about a guy who achieved the greatest thing known to ninja: he reached the level of the Sage of 6 paths.

it was said a ninja can be as young as naruto and stronger then kakashi...so its perfectly fine for rin to have crazy med abilities.

Also we have see alot of med jutsu is not used with tools it is used by chakra from healing to chakra blades etc....

the rin transplanting an eye is fine logic.

now back to madara

All Sharingan abilities are now asspull and useable without they eye itself

izanagi
izanami
tsykiomi
amaterasu
susanoo
kamui
koto.
tracking
movement prediction

which means

danzo did not need all those eyes he could have just used normal eyes because he learned izanagi already so the eye is pointless

koto.- it was said it was not useable because the eye needed to recover but i guess not because the eye does not matter should have just used regular eyes after the first use

[Hunter]

People seem to accept this garbage like if they dont they cannot keep watching naruto so better act like it makes sense.

First and foremost, tone this down. If you feel like you can't trade civil exchanges and polite skepticism anymore, then please do not post.
Secondly most of what I post is usually about how and why I disagree with the author's choices and logic so you're particularly off the mark.

Originally Posted by Zenex

its jsut to far fetched to me. everyone else has needed surgery to connect all these things but madara just jam it in like a plug in a socket and it works...

Everyone else doesn't have nearly instant regeneration. If Madara can reconnect an arm instantly why would it be different for an eye? What I don't understand is why you make a big deal out of it when we knew beforehand he specifically had just the power to do this thanks to Hashirama's DNA. The way he took a beating from all the Bijuu with little to no effect is considerably more insane than this.

itachi never went blind he got close and very blurry vision but never went blind.

I'm afraid you're wrong. Check the end of this fight again, Itachi completely lost his sight after stopping Kirin when his MS finally sealed itself.

Like I said susanoo is as much an ms tech as amaterasu and tskyiomi and koto. and kamui etc... so if all these tech are usuable without the eyes then why did obito not take both rinnegan when he had them. as it should not have effected hi kamui. and kakashi the sharingan sucks his chakra constantly so why not chuck the eye since he does not need it to use any of its techs.

Your reasoning doesn't follow because those jutsu directly work through eyesight or use an eye as fuel whereas Susanoo doesn't. I understand why you'd find this weird because I share the feeling but all I am saying is that it's at least consistent with what Kishimoto already did in the past with Itachi.

If I really wanted to rationalize this I guess I would argue that while the Sharingan is the most obvious manifestation of the Uchiha Bloodline Limit it is not the Bloodline itself but merely the result of the Uchiha's abnormal chakra whose ultimate materialization is Susanoo. Hence why once you've reached the point where you can use the jutsu all that is needed is an Uchiha's body and chakra.
Similarly Madara can use Rinnegan jutsu at least to an extent even without eyes because his body possesses the Uchiha/Senju chakra necessary to perform them.
It's the reason why Orochimaru didn't settle for taking a Sharingan eye and be done with it. The eye itself is important but it's the body that truly matter.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

If I really wanted to rationalize this I guess I would argue that while the Sharingan is the most obvious manifestation of the Uchiha Bloodline Limit it is not the Bloodline itself but merely the result of the Uchiha's abnormal chakra whose ultimate materialization is Susanoo. Hence why once you've reached the point where you can use the jutsu all that is needed is an Uchiha's body and chakra.
Similarly Madara can use Rinnegan jutsu at least to an extent even without eyes because his body possesses the Uchiha/Senju chakra necessary to perform them.
It's the reason why Orochimaru didn't settle for taking a Sharingan eye and be done with it. The eye itself is important but it's the body that truly matter.

yea i think it's exactly this. i didnt remember itachi going blind like that, but his eyes are clearly blind just like after he used izanami. that does actually make this more palatable. and it is the uchiha body and chakra that's important as well. tobirama explained that it's the uchiha chakra that mutates the brain and causes the sharingan, MS and rinnegan to materialize in the first place. so if a technique doesn't use the eyes as triggers like kamui or tsukiyomi, then it makes sense for madara not to need them. i.e. the rinnegan chakra absorption tech didn't go into nagato's eyes, it was a body chakra technique

[Zenex]

Originally Posted by Hunter

First and foremost, tone this down. If you feel like you can't trade civil exchanges and polite skepticism anymore, then please do not post.
Secondly most of what I post is usually about how and why I disagree with the author's choices and logic so you're particularly off the mark.

Everyone else doesn't have nearly instant regeneration. If Madara can reconnect an arm instantly why would it be different for an eye? What I don't understand is why you make a big deal out of it when we knew beforehand he specifically had just the power to do this thanks to Hashirama's DNA. The way he took a beating from all the Bijuu with little to no effect is considerably more insane than this.

I'm afraid you're wrong. Check the end of this fight again, Itachi completely lost his sight after stopping Kirin when his MS finally sealed itself.

Your reasoning doesn't follow because those jutsu directly work through eyesight or use an eye as fuel whereas Susanoo doesn't. I understand why you'd find this weird because I share the feeling but all I am saying is that it's at least consistent with what Kishimoto already did in the past with Itachi.

If I really wanted to rationalize this I guess I would argue that while the Sharingan is the most obvious manifestation of the Uchiha Bloodline Limit it is not the Bloodline itself but merely the result of the Uchiha's abnormal chakra whose ultimate materialization is Susanoo. Hence why once you've reached the point where you can use the jutsu all that is needed is an Uchiha's body and chakra.
Similarly Madara can use Rinnegan jutsu at least to an extent even without eyes because his body possesses the Uchiha/Senju chakra necessary to perform them.
It's the reason why Orochimaru didn't settle for taking a Sharingan eye and be done with it. The eye itself is important but it's the body that truly matter.

even if itachi did go blind he still has they eyes They are just blind but they are there same as a blind man. To say what I bolded in your statement is absolutley bonkers. Acting like susanoo is not a jutsu that works through the sharingan just as much as all the others all in order to make rational sense of a complete and obvious asspull.

Again I ask and please answer this

1. How would you feel if sakura all of a sudden used rasenshuriken? would you make excuses for kishi about that as well?

2. Why did obito keep his sharingan if sharingan techs are not reliant on the eye itself?

3. Lastly explain to me if a tech is not reliant on the eye then why make the eye a requirement to learn the tech in the fist place. Since it apparently does not rely on it in any way shape or form?

Edit: Sorry based on the other post I had another question

4. If its the uchiha blood that makes a tech then why cant all uchiha with the ms use susanoo. Obito has uchiha blood and unlocked the ms like all the others so why can he not use it?

could it be because he does not have the double ms eyes. or could it be he does not have the proper eyes like shisui never had the susanoo that we know of and he had double ms. see how the whole thing bases around the eyes themselves.

5. Why did orochimaru devote his entire naruto series appearance to getting the sharingan eye not the uchiha blood?

And most important

6.If its the blood and not the eyes then why is it when an ems user fuses eyes does their susanoo make a drastic upgrade?

7.If it were just the blood they could easily just do some blood transfusion and both have perfect susanoo could they not since it's the blood and the eye does not matter?

Spoiler for Kishi thoughts on Sharingan:

Muahahaha the eyes, The eyes, The eyes oh hey wouldn't it be cool if madara came back without eyes? ok fuck it screw the eyes they can use techs when and how they want with no logic. People will make up excuses for me.

[JustRob]

Maybe Madara could pop in that eye so easily because it was his to begin with. I dunno how it works. But then again, replacing your eye with someone else's and being able to use it perfectly is not something that can happen in the real world to begin with.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Zenex

even if itachi did go blind he still has they eyes They are just blind but they are there same as a blind man. To say what I bolded in your statement is absolutley bonkers. Acting like susanoo is not a jutsu that works through the sharingan just as much as all the others all in order to make rational sense of a complete and obvious asspull.

So what? What difference is there between a blind set of eyes whose Sharingan have been sealed off and no eyes at all in this situation? I have no problem if you find both instances to be illogical but acting like it's something new that never happened before is simply wrong.
And what you bolded in my post makes perfect sense, you are trying to conflate several jutsu making a direct use of the eyes with one that doesn't. It's tantamount to say that the Raikage shouldn't be able to use his Lightning armor after losing his arm because Kakashi couldn't use a Chidori without his hand. Amaterasu, Kamui, etc. are techniques that requires an eye to be cast from whereas it's not the case with Susanoo, it's really that simple.

You are acting as if the Sharingan is a separate entity foreign from an Uchiha body. The effect the special chakra in their brain has on their eyes and vice versa never made much sense but it stayed relatively consistant. I am not saying you can learn to materialize Susanoo with no Sharingan because the evolution of the Uchiha power is closely related to their eyes. What I'm saying is that once you've learned to do that the eye itself has little to do with it. It's not like they shot Susanoo out of their eyeballs.

Again I ask and please answer this
[...]

Your first question is pointless so I will ignore it and the 2nd and 3rd are answered above.
After that what do you mean by blood? Are you under the mistaken impression that Bloodline Limit and blood transfusion are interchangeable terms? I'm also not sure what point you're trying to make with Orochimaru since he did devote his life to seek an Uchiha body and not just an eye like Kakashi for all the story.

Now for the interesting part of your questions, as I said above I think you're mistakenly thinking of the Sharingans almost as separate characters instead of manifestation of Uchiha's genetic power. Their eyes aren't all there is to their Bloodline as Itachi told Kakashi the first time they meet. It's a fundamental part, no one denied that but remove their eyes and they are still Uchiha with special genetic that allow them to do ridiculous magical stuff including the special chakra (which is what create the Sharingan to begin with) which apparently is enough to use Susanoo.

[james0246]

I guess it depends on whether or not Susano'o is cast through the eyes or not. While the eyes are a genetic tool needed to convert or control chakra in order to use certain techniques (maybe it is similar to a prism: the eyes can "refract" a persons chakra in certain ways, resulting in specific techniques), it is possible that Susano'o, while derived from the eyes, is not created from the eyes but rather an understanding of how to shape and mold chakra that can only be attained once you've acquired the Mangekyo level (and learning to shape and mold chakra in new ways).

I do agree that whatever the case may be concerning the eyes, Kishimoto is not explaining himself properly.

[Hunter]

He seldom does, as I said in my first post I don't think this part makes much sense, just that it can be rationalized particularly in light of Itachi's previous example.
Personally I find more difficult to explain how the 6~7 Paths are supposed to be a Doujutsu and what the eye itself is meant to do at all.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Zenex

Again I ask and please answer this
4. If its the uchiha blood that makes a tech then why cant all uchiha with the ms use susanoo. Obito has uchiha blood and unlocked the ms like all the others so why can he not use it?

what's funny is that you're answering your own question here. the fact that not all MS eyes can use susano'o is indicative of the fact that it's not the eyes that form it. it's the user's chakra. some MS users don't have powerful enough chakra to make susano'o. madara, itachi and sasuke do

Originally Posted by Hunter

Personally I find more difficult to explain how the 6~7 Paths are supposed to be a Doujutsu and what the eye itself is meant to do at all.

in light of madara absorbing ninjutsu without eyes i'm inclined to now think that the rinnegan techs (for the most part) aren't doujutsus. unless they blatantly involve the eyes of course. but ninjutsu absorption was done with that path's hands, summoning was done with seals, the soul pull was done with a hand, shinra tensei was done with a hand, etc... so theoretically madara should have been able to do all of that while blind

so likewise to MS and susano'o, the achievement of rinnegan eyes happens alongside the body vastly improving as well. having madara do this stuff while blind may be kishi's way of stopping people from thinking these false assumptions anymore.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

what's funny is that you're answering your own question here. the fact that not all MS eyes can use susano'o is indicative of the fact that it's not the eyes that form it. it's the user's chakra. some MS users don't have powerful enough chakra to make susano'o. madara, itachi and sasuke do

To be fair, it could require a certain depth of mentality or maturity (or the opposite) to awaken Susano'o, something others either have not possessed or were not in a position to gain.

But, you're probably correct and it is just how to use chakra.