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GoldenLand · 2014-11-04, 22:43

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Originally Posted by eX_ploit

"Let's go back to Jessica's room." is not in red.

Yep, sorry that was highlighting mistake.

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Originally Posted by eX_ploit

She said "no one is hiding" in present time, so it works only on the time when she said it. With all other sentences here she used past time, and elaborated to which time they refer....

So the argument is that any time that Beatrice uses the present tense, she is lying by actually talking about a later time.

But Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that you were not aware of. No one is hiding.

Beatrice stated which time she was talking about. It's clear. Both "no humans exist that you were not aware of" and "no one is hiding" refer to specific cases. She specified "both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room". The reds accordingly refer to those two times. You say she didn't specify the time, but she specified it right there.

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Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Did you read my whole post by the way? Because this scene is actually one of my evidences that Jessica is culprit.
She gave her this charm and the next morning there was blood on Natsuhi's door.
Whoever painted it there must've known about the charm, but the only ones who knew were Natsuhi and Jessica.

Anybody else who entered the room could also see it on the doorknob, too. It's not as if Beatrice was really a witch who couldn't enter because of a protective charm.

Beatrice entered the room, saw the charm, and decided not to kill Natsuhi after all. The ep 8 manga actually goes over this.

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Beatrice: "And then, that scorpion charm...you happened to have hung it on the door knob."

Natsuhi: "...Because of that, you could not enter my room..."

[Pictured: an arm entering the room, a shadowed figure gritting its teeeth]

Beatrice: "There's no way I couldn't enter! After all, I'm the grandchild of the Golden Witch, you know? ...Still, it was because the setting was like that that I decided to make it like I couldn't enter, just in case. In exchange, I decided to splash paint all over the door and scare the hell out of you."

AuraTwilight's already gone over the issues with the detective and observation, so I don't need to.

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Originally Posted by eX_ploit

But it doesn't need to explain all of Beatrice's behavior. By the way what are those behavior that can't be explained?

The theory doesn't need to explain the behaviour and relationship between Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon? A big thing is made of what "furniture" is in Umineko, and the feelings of Beatrice, Shannon and Kanon towards that, and their interactions with each other. A lot of time is spent on it. A theory needs to be able to account for that time and those interactions. It also needs to explain why it is that the successful loves of Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon are mutually exclusive.

If we just take the isolated example you gave, that...

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Originally Posted by eX_ploit

The problem here is that we know Beatrice mainly through magic scenes, and there are a lot of falsehoods there.
From what I understand, Jessica gave them golden brooch as a magic trick, to give Kanon some courage so that she could make out with him, and she gave it to Shannon first, because she couldn't give it to Kanon directly. And it was most probably not even golden, but some cheap toy which looked golden instead. But her plan backfired badly, as Kanon not only rejected her, but also trampled her brooch and ran away, while at the same time George and Shannon ended up just fine..

That says that giving the brooch to Shannon was something meaningless, just a means to an end for getting it to Kanon. But Beatrice didn't treat giving the brooch to Shannon as something that trivial. And why would she know that giving the brooch to Shannon would be a way of giving it to Kanon? (I mean, unless you're saying that it's just because Shannon and Kanon have the same body, but even then, Kanon has different clothes.) Why would she not give it to him directly? Why would she believe that if Kanon had a cheap toy brooch, it would suddenly be kiss-o-rama time for the two of them? Beatrice understands Kanon and Shannon better than that. She knows they're "furniture" however that is defined. But Jessica never seemed to understand it, and her failure to understand it actually inhibited her relationship with Kanon.

Moving to a more general criticism of your theory, your theory is one where Jessica, Rosa and George are the culprits working together, with Jessica as the mastermind. What you are completely missing here is both a motive and a reason for those three to work together. Have you got those things?

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Originally Posted by Oroboro

As ludicrous as these positions are, it's still pretty hilarious to see this thread blow up again after months of near dormancy.

Yep, I'm not complaining.

(And oops, probably should have edited this post into the one above. Too late now.)

haguruma · 2014-11-05, 01:25

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Looks as if the hospital was pretty easy to bribe too.

Considering all the talk about the evil of money and how it warps people into immoral bastards, I almost wonder if that is Ryûkishi commenting on himself selling out with Higurashi

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The only weird thing is that Beatrice knew about the switch. Ange explains that it's because Beatrice has furniture who's informed about family internal affairs (Genji) so it is no wonder she knew about it, but that means that Genji knew about it. But, it's clear from other things that Rudolf said that the last thing he wanted was for Kinzo to find out about the death of Asumu's baby, because then Kinzo would want Kyrie to become Rudolf's legal wife.

Well, it's still 1968 and Rudolph would have been something like 27-28. Considering he might have gone to university (if not graduate school...since Krauss apparently went as well) the money might have been something like a trust fund or even the family money, so it's not that weird that information reached Kinzô. I think Kinzô knew a a lot more things than he let his children know.
Also it was a good 17 years until Genji might have told Beatrice, so that's also quite some time to find out. Birth records must have been forged and people have the tendency to blurt things out...since Genji, Nanjô and Kumasawa have been in the game a few years longer than Rudolph, they might have stumbled upon a blunder he committed.

Also, chapter 22 (with 23 coming up) of the EP8 manga, since I finally got some free time now that I got the fifth tankôbon. It's the bridge between Ange fleeing the gameboard and opening the Book of One Truth. Again, it does a much better job at contextualizing Ange's characterization...and also gives a bit more dimension to Erika.

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 22:

eX_ploit · 2014-11-05, 03:36

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You are now changing the goalposts. No one in that quote directly asks Maria, "What does the person who handed you the letter look like?" and Maria does not lie. Beatrice has an appearance, but she also, by the construction of her own narrative, work through other people.

No one asks her that exact sentence, but she tells it anyway
Are you trying to say that Maria is a robot who only understands the exact words that are spoken?

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And, you know, you're ignoring her characterization in EP7 where she basically literally states this.

Can you tell me what exactly are you talking about here?

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For the majority of it, yea. Pretty much the one time they're not together, Natsuhi and Dr. Nanjo would've been with George.

What is the source of this information?
Because between the time when Eva and Hideyoshi left parlor and when they were found dead there is a 6 hour long gaping hole.
And it was all fast-forwarded in the story.

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The reds don't allow someone to have been hiding in the room for the 1st episode's 2nd Twilight,

There were no such reds.

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and Will's conclusions call out the chain as having been an illusion.

Yes. An illusion of safety. Because Eva and Hideyoshi didn't suspect their own son, they thought it would prevent killer from entering.

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Or "Wow, that person I'm conspiring with for a murder mystery game with literally millions upon millions in GOLD can afford Hollywood style makeup and affects", and by the time things fall apart, it's too late to come clean or confront them about it.

Hollywood style makeup and effects require work of hollywood style makeup and effect artists. Were there any hollywood artists on the island who could've arranged all of that? And wouldn't you think that Eva and Hideyoshi would be curious to see these artists in action?

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Also people don't get wet in the rain and leave wet footprints, by Ryukishi's own Word of God, so.

I don't get what you mean here.

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No, it's not. The point of personalities is that they can die and come back whenever Beatrice says they do. They're still 'humans' for her purposes when she characterizes them as such. Shannon and Kanon are called 'humans' in the red, but she can also 'revive' them.

It's a pretty important insight.

Logic doesn't work like that.
They are either humans or not humans.
They can't be "humans for her purposes". That's not a valid logic assertion.

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Grammar-wise, my interpretation is equally valid. If you want to apply common sense over literal interpretations, then most of your arguments fall apart.

We'll need a japanese translator to decide this one. Maybe it's more evident what is meant in japanese version.

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Detective Authority is effectively a Meta-power. It means that Battler is basically incapable of receiving false information. He cannot hallucinate, mistake a fake body for a real one, and other things of that nature. He can draw false conclusions, but he cannot provide the reader with incorrect facts.

I doesn't make any sense. By this logic Shannon's breast must be real because Battler thinks that they are real.

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Battler literally uses the fact that he mistook a false thing for the real Kinzo in EP5 as proof that he is not the Detective. Therefore, when Battler is the detective, he cannot confuse "Not that person" with "That person".

That's not what happened there.
Battler proved that he wasn't detective because detective cannot lie. And Battler lied that he saw Kinzo. And proof that he lied is the red that states that nobody would mistake Kinzo.

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Jessica's corpse is found by the Detective. That is as good as confirming that she is dead in red, even without considering Beato's multi-game Reds. Jessica's face is intact enough that you can discern her identity (one side of her face is fine), therefore it is not a fake or a double by Beatrice's rules.

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he DOES talk about her head, and how HALF OF IT IS PERFECTLY INTACT.

You must recall that in both second and fourth games, Jessica's corpse lies on it's chest, face down. And is it mentioned that Battler flips her corpse to see the face? No.

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Because. You know. Beatrice never puts corpses into specific positions, ever.

Oh wait, that's literally the first twilight of the second game.

There would be evidence left suggesting that corpses were moved.
For example blood in places where they really died.

Here is a description of shower with Hideyoshi

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In the bathtub, a small jar of body soap had fallen with its cap off.

......It really looked like he had been attacked while taking a shower.
......There was still a small splash of blood clinging to the white bathtub, and the combination of red and white made a horrible contrast.

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That's not really what the two Beatos represent. Chick-Beato represents the aspect of Beatrice that was born to love Battler, and the other is a personification of the legend of Beatrice responsible for mysterious pranks at night. It's only when they're embodied in a single person that murder becomes possible for the Beatrice persona, implying only one person is acting as them.

You may say what they represent. But you can't say what they really represent.
That's the thing with metaphors. They can be interpreted in different ways.

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In your attempt to find loopholes in everything you're missing the symbolic truth of the novel. That effectively makes you one of the goats who doesn't trust anything that isn't Red, which was Erika's downfall.

Erika wasn't one of the goats.

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Nanjo is described as the FAMILY doctor and he is hilariously easy to bribe.

Nanjo is a general practitionist.
There is no way he would take care of birthgiving.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Actually, the ep 8 manga explains this situation. It looks as if Nanjo was not involved. Pictures are shown of Rudolf bribing the doctors, and he outright says that he bribed the hospital. Looks as if the hospital was pretty easy to bribe too.

He didn't know beforehand, didn't plan to get rid of one of the babies, and having Asumu's baby die actually wrecked his plans for both families coexisting.

The only weird thing is that Beatrice knew about the switch. Ange explains that it's because Beatrice has furniture who's informed about family internal affairs (Genji) so it is no wonder she knew about it, but that means that Genji knew about it.

That's how it's portrayed in manga. But that isn't a proof.
Manga works with the same rules as the VN.
Everything that isn't red and isn't detective's story can be doubted.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand

But, it's clear from other things that Rudolf said that the last thing he wanted was for Kinzo to find out about the death of Asumu's baby, because then Kinzo would want Kyrie to become Rudolf's legal wife.

Actually that's not what he said.
He said:

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There's no way that damned dad wouldn't suggest to make Kyrie, who gave birth to a boy, my legal wife.
Besides there was also the precedent of Natsuhi nee-san too.

So it wasn't actually the issue that Asumu's child died, but that Kirye's child was a boy.
And why the hell did Rudolf talk about Natsuhi here?
I mean if it was about family register manipulation he should've talked about Eva, not Natsuhi.
And also while reading this I saw Asumu for the first time. Doesn't she actually look a lot like Jessica?

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So the argument is that any time that Beatrice uses the present tense, she is lying by actually talking about a later time.

But Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that you were not aware of. No one is hiding.

Beatrice stated which time she was talking about. It's clear. Both "no humans exist that you were not aware of" and "no one is hiding" refer to specific cases. She specified "both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room". The reds accordingly refer to those two times. You say she didn't specify the time, but she specified it right there.

"No one is hiding" is a different sentence. She specified time for the sentence before that.

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Anybody else who entered the room could also see it on the doorknob, too. It's not as if Beatrice was really a witch who couldn't enter because of a protective charm.

Beatrice entered the room, saw the charm, and decided not to kill Natsuhi after all. The ep 8 manga actually goes over this.

Okay, then let's hear your full explanation.
How did Shannon see that charm on the other side of the door, without waking Natsuhi.
You must provide a step by step instruction which doesn't contradict any of these facts:
Door opens inwards.
Room is dark
Natsuhi has sleeping problems.
Shannon goes in with the intention of killing Natsuhi.
Shannon goes in without prior knowledge of the charm
Shannon has only 2 hands.

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The theory doesn't need to explain the behaviour and relationship between Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon? A big thing is made of what "furniture" is in Umineko, and the feelings of Beatrice, Shannon and Kanon towards that, and their interactions with each other. A lot of time is spent on it. A theory needs to be able to account for that time and those interactions. It also needs to explain why it is that the successful loves of Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon are mutually exclusive.

I don't really think that theory about real world must explain meta world and magic scenes.
After all, they are like a different layer of the story, and can be thought of as another story entirely.

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That says that giving the brooch to Shannon was something meaningless, just a means to an end for getting it to Kanon. But Beatrice didn't treat giving the brooch to Shannon as something that trivial.

I think you are confusing reality with illusion.
After all Beatrice is nothing more than illusion. She may brag about how she is a thousand years old witch who commands demons and is bored of living, and has no motive other than to torment people, but in reality she is still a human, a young girl(or transgender according to shkannontrists) with sad past. And her real motives are humanly as well. That's why I wouldn't trust Beatrice's words too much, even when she's not talking to Battler.

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And why would she know that giving the brooch to Shannon would be a way of giving it to Kanon?

Why wouldn't she know? Jessica is Shannon's only friend, so she must know a lot about her, and about Kanon from her.

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Why would she not give it to him directly?

Because he doesn't trust Beatrice, so he wouldn't take it from her.

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Why would she believe that if Kanon had a cheap toy brooch, it would suddenly be kiss-o-rama time for the two of them? Beatrice understands Kanon and Shannon better than that. She knows they're "furniture" however that is defined. But Jessica never seemed to understand it, and her failure to understand it actually inhibited her relationship with Kanon.

Where is this "she never seemed to understand it" come from?
If we re talking about "Jessica who is always Jessica", you may be right.
But if we are talking about "Jessica who sometimes acts like Jessica and sometimes acts like Beatrice" then on the contrary, it follows that she understands them.
You must recall that Beatrice too didn't expect Kanon to reject Jessica.

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Moving to a more general criticism of your theory, your theory is one where Jessica, Rosa and George are the culprits working together, with Jessica as the mastermind. What you are completely missing here is both a motive and a reason for those three to work together. Have you got those things?

I'm sorry but this will have to wait.
This will have to be a big post, because if I don't go into details, I'll simply confuse everyone.
We can discuss other parts in the meantime.

Levani · 2014-11-05, 03:52

I can't believe this kind of discussions still exist when Ryukishi has given the answer completely.

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Are you trying to say that Maria is a robot who only understands the exact words that are spoken?

Yes. Maria is a person that believes everything right away. That's been said since Episode One.

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Yes. An illusion of safety. Because Eva and Hideyoshi didn't suspect their own son, they thought it would prevent killer from entering.

Who set the chain? Or does Kanon lying about it work for your theory too?

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Logic doesn't work like that.
They are either humans or not humans.
They can't be "humans for her purposes". That's not a valid logic assertion.

Sure, except the fact that Ryukishi is treating personalities as humans. And that's what Umineko is assuming to be THE truth. If you think this is bullshit, then you have a problem with Ryukishi's understanding and opinion of what a personality is.

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You may say what they represent. But you can't say what they really represent.
That's the thing with metaphors. They can be interpreted in different ways.

Except it's obvious as fuck that it represents Yasu who wants to be the witch and the mythical witch. By combining these two, you get Meta Beatrice that we know. As EP6 said, or is that a bullshit episode as well?

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Erika wasn't one of the goats.

You're right, she was the head of the goats. The worst one of them all.

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Everything that isn't red and isn't detective's story can be doubted.

That's your problem, there we go. You think everything is bullshit other than Red and the detective authority and that is a wrong stance. Not Umineko's main theme and not the "without love it cannot be seen" part, you've missed not only the obvious answer which was given to us, but the philosophy Ryukishi wanted to write, congratulations.

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And also while reading this I saw Asumu for the first time. Doesn't she actually look a lot like Jessica?

But that's from the manga you love to doubt. And Jessica is said to resemble Natsuhi, all the time in the VN. Ohhh right, everything that is white is bullshit, gotcha.

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Okay, then let's hear your full explanation.
How did Shannon see that charm on the other side of the door, without waking Natsuhi.
You must provide a step by step intruction which doesn't contradict any of these facts:
Door opens inwards.
Room is dark
Natsuhi has sleeping problems.
Shannon goes in with the intention of killing Natsuhi.
Shannon goes in without prior knowledge of the cham
Shannon has only 2 hands.

Open the fucking door, see the charm, leave. You are aware that Yasu doesn't have to barge in, make huge noise and let everyone know she's about to kill a woman? She would be silent, she's killing someone for crying out loud.

eX_ploit · 2014-11-05, 04:17

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Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

I may be remembering wrong, and am not in a position to check, but wasn't it a spontaneous, spur-of-the-moment thing? I seem to remember him bribing the doctors after birth. Even still, this raises a question- Why did he give Kyrie's child to Asumu? Why didn't he let Asumu keep her baby, and give Battler to Krauss and Natsuhi?

Interesting point. It may be that he wanted a son, and since he already arranged child-swapping, it was trivial to also swap those 2.

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Originally Posted by haguruma

The detective in any mystery novel is technically supernatural...or rather preternatural...in that he is an insurance for the readers to have a perspective they can trust.
And your definition of the detective in Umineko is incomplete. The detective character cannot tell the reader false information, thus when Battler says he finds "Jessica's corpse" in EP4, it is Jessica's corpse and not "something that looks like Jessica's corpse".

when Battler says that he's going to touch "Shannon's breast" in EP1, it is Shannon's breast and not "something that looks like Shannon's breast".

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Originally Posted by Levani

Open the fucking door, see the charm, leave. You are aware that Yasu doesn't have to barge in, make huge noise and let everyone know she's about to kill a woman? She would be silent, she's killing someone for crying out loud.

I had some doubt's whether you are a fucking idiot or not, but after this post they are gone. I won't waste anymore time responding to you.

Levani · 2014-11-05, 04:38

Okay, I'm done here too, have nice day and fuck you.

GoldenLand · 2014-11-05, 05:35

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Originally Posted by eX_ploit

I had some doubt's whether you are a fucking idiot or not, but after this post they are gone. I won't waste anymore time responding to you.

I was in the middle of writing up a post to respond to your earlier reply, but if this is the way you are going to treat people I have no reason to bother responding to you any further.

(In any case, Levani's reasoning there that caused you to insult them was totally sound, so it's plain bizarre that you've reacted this way. Opening a door quietly and seeing something on the door handle when you enter the room is not, actually, outlandish and impossible.)

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Originally Posted by Mali

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"For the rest of the fight in this room, the progression of the time will be stopped. This way, all the moves for both players will be made at the same time, and the first move will be treated no differently than the last move."

Ah, you found that quote! I was looking through the script the other day for something saying officially that the time was stopped, but I couldn't find it.

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Originally Posted by Mali

Yeah you're right with this. But I didn't like the definitions of hidden passages because it was said in the 5th game "Passages that the detective cannot find are hidden PASSAGES." And Erika isn't the detective at that time.

I think that's why Knox's third in the game is "It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist." Because it's only a hidden passage if the Detective can't find it, so they're forbidden.

The original Knox rule is kinder about this, and says that "No more than one secret room or passage is allowable" but only if the house is one where a hidden passage could be expected. I suppose Ryukishi wanted to be able to rule out the existence of hidden passages outright.

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Originally Posted by Mali

Here's my absurd blue:
After Kanon hid in the closet he moved somehow inside the closet outside! Erika is the rescuer of Kanon. Kanon is not in the guest room but he didn't left the guestroom because the closet is a section of the guest room.
It'd be a logic error itself.

Hmm, I think I'm missing something here.

"Kanon does not exist in the guest room. .........Of course, this includes all parts of the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom."

So he can't be in the closet, and I don't see how he could have left the guest room via the closet.

Erika cannot be the rescuer of Battler, since there's red saying that. It doesn't rule out that she could be the rescuer of Kanon, but I don't think there's anything she did while she was in there that could have saved Kanon.

eX_ploit · 2014-11-05, 06:36

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I was in the middle of writing up a post to respond to your earlier reply, but if this is the way you are going to treat people I have no reason to bother responding to you any further.

If you want to know what sparked my reaction, just read his every response since page 1730.
And by the way it was about his whole post, just didn't want to make a huge quote there.
If someone is wrong I can correct them, no problem.
But if someone is wrong, while at the same time throwing an unending barrage of insults and sarcasm, I don't have enough patience.

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(In any case, Levani's reasoning there that caused you to insult them was totally sound, so it's plain bizarre that you've reacted this way. Opening a door quietly and seeing something on the door handle when you enter the room is not, actually, outlandish and impossible.)

Did you read and understand all the facts I listed there? Hint: Door opens inwards.

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Originally Posted by haguruma

With all your ideas behind why Shkannontrice is an elaborate lie, I'd like you to explain this chapter to me:
Translation of EP8 Chapter 25 (Manga)

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...Ange...
...so you learned the One Truth

Beato:
You...
That red Fragment...it couldn't be...

Ange:
It just floated in! Into my mind that had been torn to shreds...
Your shitty confession...

So it seems like by "shitty confession" she is referring to Confession of the Golden Witch.
However, it also mentions that she learned the One Truth. And the One Truth has already been shown before. It is nothing else then Eva's diary.
Ushiromiya Eva's diary, the Book of the Single Truth, has written within it the truth of Rokkenjima during October 4th and 5th, 1986.
And it also contained a certain confession. After all, we know that Eva killed Battler personally in the 3rd game. And It's also entirely possible that she killed Rudolf and Kyrie too.
Therefore it's entirely possible that Ange saying "shitty confession" is referring to Eva's diary that she read.

haguruma · 2014-11-05, 09:07

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Originally Posted by eX_ploit

when Battler says that he's going to touch "Shannon's breast" in EP1, it is Shannon's breast and not "something that looks like Shannon's breast".

The word for breasts used in this context in Japanese is gender-unspecific, just like the word "breast" in English. A breast (mune) is simply referring to the surface chest-area of a human, be it male or female...so whether or not there are breasts, Battler was about to touch Shannon's breast.

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Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Therefore it's entirely possible that Ange saying "shitty confession" is referring to Eva's diary that she read.

Sorry to dissapoint you. The "shitty confession" she is referring to and the red fragment Beato is referring to is Confession of the Golden Witch, which Ange picks up in chapter 22 while she is in the Capital of Books and then witnesses once she commits suicide in chapter 24.

You should also read up on the mass of other confirmation that the EP8 manga gave so far (translations have been done by me, so ask if you don't find them).
And concerning your previous claim, the manga could be a different story then the VN, it's not. Ryûkishi has confirmed that he will include additional information (for those who didn't get to solve it) into the manga as far back as early 2011, right after the release of EP8 in December 2010.
So unless you want to doubt the Word of God, you will have to accept what the manga is now handing to us.

eX_ploit · 2014-11-05, 09:58

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Originally Posted by haguruma

The word for breasts used in this context in Japanese is gender-unspecific, just like the word "breast" in English. A breast (mune) is simply referring to the surface chest-area of a human, be it male or female...so whether or not there are breasts, Battler was about to touch Shannon's breast.

If Shannon has fake breasts, then what he was about to touch would be some parallon, not breasts. Besides that's not not the only thing. He also says that she has big breasts(which she doesn't and he can't say false things according to you), and then says that George is rubbing Shannon's breast with his entire hand. He also says that Shannon is a girl, and Kanon is a boy.

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Sorry to dissapoint you.

Oh, but you didn't dissapoint me in the slightest.

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The "shitty confession" she is referring to and the red fragment Beato is referring to is Confession of the Golden Witch, which Ange picks up in chapter 22 while she is in the Capital of Books and then witnesses once she commits suicide in chapter 24.

Let's say that this is true. Ange really read this confession. But where is evidence that the confession itself is true?

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You should also read up on the mass of other confirmation that the EP8 manga gave so far (translations have been done by me, so ask if you don't find them).

I would love to read it if it's available in manga format. I've seen translations here and there but they are all simply text, and it's not very entertaining to read it in this form.

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And concerning your previous claim, the manga could be a different story then the VN, it's not. Ryûkishi has confirmed that he will include additional information (for those who didn't get to solve it) into the manga as far back as early 2011, right after the release of EP8 in December 2010.

I don't believe that manga is a different story anymore. In fact, from what I can tell it's the same story. And the same rules apply to it. Everything that is not written in red, and not witnessed by detective can be doubted.

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So unless you want to doubt the Word of God, you will have to accept what the manga is now handing to us.

Was this Word of God written in red?

haguruma · 2014-11-05, 10:14

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Originally Posted by eX_ploit

He also says that Shannon is a girl, and Kanon is a boy.

Kanon is a boy and Shannon is a girl, nothing within the confines of the setting denies that.

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Let's say that this is true. Ange really read this confession. But where is evidence that the confession itself is true?

It is a red fragment and the whole message bottle was written on red paper.

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Everything that is not written in red, and not witnessed by detective can be doubted.

Then you should have no problem accepting these additional Reds from the manga:
Van Dine 12th, it is forbidden for there to be more than one true culprit

Van Dine 16th !
There is no need to include depictions that exceed the necessary in a story

Up to the end of the 4th game you (Battler) were the detective

With Kinzo dead there are 17 even if you include Furudo Erika

In non of the games is Ushiromiya Battler the culprit

Referring to EP2:
Natsuhi's room was a locked-ROOM!
The door to Natsuhi's room being locked was verified by Battler who was the detective at that POINT

Kanon died together with Jessica in Jessica's room!

Referring to EP3:
All the keys in connection to the interconnected locked-room are sealed within the interconnected locked-room itself!
The people who discovered the corpses cannot possess any more keys in connection to the locked room than those they retrieved when discovering the CORPSES!!

The ones who discovered the corpses of the first twilight had no part in the murders or the construction of the interconnected locked-room!

Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, George, Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon are dead before Nanjo was killed!

Referring to EP5:
The name Kanon can only be carried by the person themself!
The rescuer was Kanon!

Battler up until that point was the detective, he therefore could not become culprit or accomplicee, but that changes from the 5th game onwards

In the 5th game it was not Battler who did the call to Natsuhi on the morning of the 5th!
A telephone threat was certainly carried out, but the caller at this point is not Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Jessica, George, Battler, Maria, Nanjo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa, Gohda, any of these 18!
And of course it is not Furudo Erika!

eX_ploit · 2014-11-05, 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Kanon is a boy and Shannon is a girl, nothing within the confines of the setting denies that.

Except that according to Shkannontrists they are both the same human who is transgender.

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It is a red fragment and the whole message bottle was written on red paper.

Hmm. I'm not really sure if it counts as a red truth.

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Then you should have no problem accepting these additional Reds from the manga:

Now this is interesting.

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Van Dine 12th, it is forbidden for there to be more than one true culprit

Van Dine 16th !
There is no need to include depictions that exceed the necessary in a story

In my theory there is only one true culprit - Jessica. Only she escapes from island.

By the way wasn't Van Dine disliked by Shkannontrists?
It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit! ...Van Dine's Twenty Rules, Rule #11.
This denies Shkannon outright.

Van Dine's Twenty Rules, Rule #7. It is forbidden to have a crime without a corpse.
And this denies Kanons "death".

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Up to the end of the 4th game you (Battler) were the detective

No problem here.

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With Kinzo dead there are 17 even if you include Furudo Erika

No problem here. Since Erika is dead she doesn't increase number of people.

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In non of the games is Ushiromiya Battler the culprit

No problem

Quote:

Natsuhi's room was a locked-ROOM!
The door to Natsuhi's room being locked was verified by Battler who was the detective at that POINT

Yes. A locked room, locked by Rosa herself, after she killed everyone inside.

Second game, fourth, fifth, and sixth twilights. In Natsuhi’s closed room, none are left alive.

Earth to earth. No one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room.

Quote:

Kanon died together with Jessica in Jessica's room!

There is a gaping hole here.
This doesn't neccessarily mean that Jessica died. Only that Kanon died in Jessica's room, and he was together with Jessica at the time.

Quote:

All the keys in connection to the interconnected locked-room are sealed within the interconnected locked-room itself!
The people who discovered the corpses cannot possess any more keys in connection to the locked room than those they retrieved when discovering the CORPSES!!

The ones who discovered the corpses of the first twilight had no part in the murders or the construction of the interconnected locked-room!

No problems. Rosa has constructed this chain, and she was not among those who found bodies.

Quote:

Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, George, Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon are dead before Nanjo was killed!

Okay, I can't solve this one right now. where is it given?

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The name Kanon can only be carried by the person themself!
The rescuer was Kanon!

No problem. Kanon rescued Battler, and then killed by Erika.

Quote:

Battler up until that point was the detective, he therefore could not become culprit or accomplicee, but that changes from the 5th game onwards

No problem.

Quote:

In the 5th game it was not Battler who did the call to Natsuhi on the morning of the 5th!
A telephone threat was certainly carried out, but the caller at this point is not Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Jessica, George, Battler, Maria, Nanjo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa, Gohda, any of these 18!
And of course it is not Furudo Erika!

I don't remember 5th game very clear.
I have 2 possibilites which can both be wrong.
1. Natsuhi was called by someone outside Rokkenjima. Phone is manipulated by culprit, so there is no reason why culprit can't turn it on when needed.
2. The call is a clever recording, which Natsuhi mistakes for the real thing. I don't know if it's feasible as I don't remember the call itself.

Mr. Dent · 2014-11-05, 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Except that according to Shkannontrists they are both the same human who is transgender.

But the Shannon and Kanon characters count as different people, who are two different genders.

Quote:

Hmm. I'm not really sure if it counts as a red truth.

It's written in Red, on Red, exists as a Red Fragment, and is treated by the characters as being the Red Truth in-universe. And you doubt it solely because it's not said out loud?

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In my theory there is only one true culprit - Jessica. Only she escapes from island.

Didn't you just describe that George was the only person capable of killing Eva and Hideyoshi?

Quote:

By the way wasn't Van Dine disliked by Shkannontrists?
It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit! ...Van Dine's Twenty Rules, Rule #11.
This denies Shkannon outright.

Not really. Shannon and Kanon, though the same human as Yasu, are not the same person. Yasu is no longer the servant, but the head of the family. Only Shannon and Kanon are servants.

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Van Dine's Twenty Rules, Rule #7. It is forbidden to have a crime without a corpse.
And this denies Kanons "death".

Is killing a fictional character a crime now?

Quote:

Yes. A locked room, locked by Rosa herself, after she killed everyone inside.

Excuse me? I don't understand. Are you saying she killed everyone and then teleported back to the Battler and Maria?

Also, this contradicts your claim that Jessica is the one true killer.

Quote:

Second game, fourth, fifth, and sixth twilights. In Natsuhi’s closed room, none are left alive.

Earth to earth. No one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room.

Referring to the fact that the one who locked the door dies inside.

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There is a gaping hole here.
This doesn't neccessarily mean that Jessica died. Only that Kanon died in Jessica's room, and he was together with Jessica at the time.

Fair argument.

Quote:

I don't remember 5th game very clear.
I have 2 possibilites which can both be wrong.
1. Natsuhi was called by someone outside Rokkenjima. Phone is manipulated by culprit, so there is no reason why culprit can't turn it on when needed.
2. The call is a clever recording, which Natsuhi mistakes for the real thing. I don't know if it's feasible as I don't remember the call itself.

The second one isn't possible, because Natsuhi and the person on the phone interact. The first one is possible, but I disagree because there's no hint to anyone off the island ever being a part of it.

haguruma · 2014-11-05, 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

In my theory there is only one true culprit - Jessica. Only she escapes from island.

Then explain to me how Jessica, the true culprit who carries the whole weight of the crime, pulled off EP1, 2 and 3.

Quote:

No problem here. Since Erika is dead she doesn't increase number of people.

Erika is not dead, she is a breathing human on the island, who ups the number by 1. This is even admitted by the opposition (Bern and Lambda) in EP5.
Lambda: Be at ease, Furudo Erika only increases the count by one person, the number of people present on this island apart from her is the exact same as in every other game so far.

Quote:

There is a gaping hole here.
This doesn't neccessarily mean that Jessica died. Only that Kanon died in Jessica's room, and he was together with Jessica at the time.

The Japanese text says: 観音は朱志香の部屋で朱志香と共に死亡した, literally Kanon died jointly with Jessica in Jessica's room, with the と共に indicating that the action of "dying" is shared by them in the same moment.

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No problems. Rosa has constructed this chain, and she was not among those who found bodies.

Then how was it possible that all the keys connected to that locked-room chain were inside the rooms? How then is it possible that Rosa was at the family conference that night...how was she able to sneak out unnoticed, commit the murders with all the keys being locked in the respective next room and yet be with her siblings in the dining hall again on the next morning?

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Okay, I can't solve this one right now. where is it given?

As a reaction to the goats claiming:
The killing of Nanjo in the 3rd game! Among the victims that were killed before Nanjo, there was the culprit who pretended to be dead and that person killed Nanjo!
Also remember:
Neither Jessica, nor Battler, nor Eva were the culprit who murdered Nanjo!
Nanjo was murdered!

Quote:

No problem. Kanon rescued Battler, and then killed by Erika.

Kanon does not exist in any way in this guestroom. ...That regards, of course, all of it, the closet, the bedroom, the bathroom.
A dead Kanon does still exist as a dead Kanon.

Quote:

I don't remember 5th game very clear.
I have 2 possibilites which can both be wrong.
1. Natsuhi was called by someone outside Rokkenjima. Phone is manipulated by culprit, so there is no reason why culprit can't turn it on when needed.
2. The call is a clever recording, which Natsuhi mistakes for the real thing. I don't know if it's feasible as I don't remember the call itself.

I think it was already sufficiently discussed that nothing from outside the island intervenes during the storm. The island is a perfect locked-room. So we can rule out option 1 because it would simply be unfair to have an unknown person intruding unto the game.
And like Mr. Dent said, the caller reacts to Natsuhi and also has her listen to Krauss' voice, which would make this way TOO premediated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Not really. Shannon and Kanon, though the same human as Yasu, are not the same person. Yasu is no longer the servant, but the head of the family. Only Shannon and Kanon are servants.

To be precise: Shannon is the ideal servant and future as a girl, Kanon is her anger and future as a boy, Beatrice is her escapism and love for Battler, Lion is her future as the head of the family. Yasuda Sayo...on a technical level...doesn't exist within the confines of Beatrice's gameboard.

eX_ploit · 2014-11-05, 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

But the Shannon and Kanon characters count as different people, who are two different genders.

That must not matter to the detective.
The argument was that detective can somehow never be deceived to make a mistake in his observations.
And a transgender, dressing sometimes like a boy and sometimes like a girl is exactly that.

Quote:

It's written in Red, on Red, exists as a Red Fragment, and is treated by the characters as being the Red Truth in-universe. And you doubt it solely because it's not said out loud?

Just because it has a lot of word red, doesn't make it "red truth". We all know how red truth looks like. It's simply red text shown to the reader. And if it's written on red paper, that means that text itself isn't red. And besides, Ryu didn't even need to involve red paper and red fragment. All he needed to do is for one of the Witches to tell her that This is all truth , the same way it was done for Eva's diary.
Instead he does it the roundabout way, making readers think that it's red truth without explicitly stating it.

Quote:

Didn't you just describe that George was the only person capable of killing Eva and Hideyoshi?

George is a culprit but not the true culprit. He is himself used by Jessica.

Quote:

Not really. Shannon and Kanon, though the same human as Yasu, are not the same person. Yasu is no longer the servant, but the head of the family. Only Shannon and Kanon are servants.

Wasn't you the one who said that Yasu doesn't have identity disorder?
Therefore if one of his personalities is servant, then he is too servant.

Quote:

Is killing a fictional character a crime now?

I denied your "fictional character" assumption earlier, by explaining that fictional characters can't kill real characters. You didn't answer that.

Quote:

Excuse me? I don't understand. Are you saying she killed everyone and then teleported back to the Battler and Maria?

She doesn't need to teleport.
Battler mentions in that game at one point that he wakes up.
So Rosa had opportunity to kill them while Battler was sleeping.

Quote:

Also, this contradicts your claim that Jessica is the one true killer.

There are multiple culprits, but only one of them is mastermind, and this mastermind is the true culprit.

Quote:

Referring to the fact that the one who locked the door dies inside.

That's not at all how coffins work.
You throw a dead body into the coffin, and close it from outside. that's how they work.

Quote:

The second one isn't possible, because Natsuhi and the person on the phone interact. The first one is possible, but I disagree because there's no hint to anyone off the island ever being a part of it.

Just because they interact doesn't mean it couldn't be a clever recording which predicted her responses. I'll need to look at specifics to tell exactly.

Mr. Dent · 2014-11-05, 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

That must not matter to the detective.
The argument was that detective can somehow never be deceived to make a mistake in his observations.
And a transgender, dressing sometimes like a boy and sometimes like a girl is exactly that.

It's not a deception. In the world of the cat box, they truly are different people, if only brought to life through a single body.

Quote:

Just because it has a lot of word red, doesn't make it "red truth". We all know how red truth looks like. It's simply red text shown to the reader. And if it's written on red paper, that means that text itself isn't red. And besides, Ryu didn't even need to involve red paper and red fragment. All he needed to do is for one of the Witches to tell her that This is all truth , the same way it was done for Eva's diary.
Instead he does it the roundabout way, making readers think that it's red truth without explicitly stating it.

It doesn't surprise me you think of it this way. It just comes off as incredibly desperate.

Quote:

Wasn't you the one who said that Yasu doesn't have identity disorder?
Therefore if one of his personalities is servant, then he is too servant.

No, since the owner of the body is not a servant. The actual killer is not a servant, only her characters are.

Quote:

I denied your "fictional character" assumption earlier, by explaining that fictional characters can't kill real characters. You didn't answer that.

Because I felt like it was obvious. Shannon and Kanon are not killers, Yasu is.

Quote:

She doesn't need to teleport.
Battler mentions in that game at one point that he wakes up.
So Rosa had opportunity to kill them while Battler was sleeping.

Valid argument, though there's no hint or implication that she does.

Quote:

There are multiple culprits, but only one of them is mastermind, and this mastermind is the true culprit.

Only if you don't consider murderer and culprit to be the same in meaning.

Quote:

Just because they interact doesn't mean it couldn't be a clever recording which predicted her responses. I'll need to look at specifics to tell exactly

If that's the case, then the person on the phone must have asked Natsuhi the questions before making the recording, and the only one who knows the answers to the questions is Shannon.
Also, Haguruma's post raised some important points.

jjblue1 · 2014-11-05, 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

The only weird thing is that Beatrice knew about the switch. Ange explains that it's because Beatrice has furniture who's informed about family internal affairs (Genji) so it is no wonder she knew about it, but that means that Genji knew about it. But, it's clear from other things that Rudolf said that the last thing he wanted was for Kinzo to find out about the death of Asumu's baby, because then Kinzo would want Kyrie to become Rudolf's legal wife.

I've been wondering if actually Rudolf confessed the truth after Asumu died and he decided to marry Kyrie.
Rudolf already had a son and Kyrie expected a little girl so Kinzo might have been not interested in allowing the marriage as he would have been when Asumu lost her baby and Kyrie had a boy. Kyrie is also without her family protection now and the re-marriage alienated Battler, the male son. Rudolf might have told him the truth to make him more willing. After all Kyrie will be allowed to bear the one winged eagle without problems, which means despite everything she'd been smoothly accepted into the family, a luxury Natsuhi didn't have.

AuraTwilight · 2014-11-05, 14:57

Quote:

No one asks her that exact sentence, but she tells it anyway
Are you trying to say that Maria is a robot who only understands the exact words that are spoken?

You know, she's nine years old and is highly implied to have some sort of autistic spectrum disorder. They DO tend to take things literally and are trusting of things at face-value.

I don't think anyone should try to use Maria's behavior as evidence of any point of view without understanding the psychology of her character.

Quote:

Can you tell me what exactly are you talking about here?

When Will interviews Maria in EP7, they specifically talk about how Beatrice talks to her in many forms. That, plus the fact that Maria divides her mother into two aspects and Sakutarou and 'not-Sakutarou' and the roses and 'Maria's rose' apart by simple idiosyncratic behaviors or characteristics means that appearance isn't what she cares about.

If Battler started calling himself a Sorcerer and knew how to do the candy trick, Maria would believe him absolutely, and that he most definitely must know Beatrice because he knows her magic trick. If someone does the candy trick and claims to be Beatrice possessing their body, she'll swallow it hook line and sinker.

There was a strong theory back in the day that Maria had Prosopagnosia, which keeps one from recognizing faces even though their object recognition, intellect, and vision are otherwise perfectly fine. I don't put stock in it, but the result is the same. Maria doesn't judge people by their faces. It is DEMONSTRATABLY the case in the text.

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What is the source of this information?
Because between the time when Eva and Hideyoshi left parlor and when they were found dead there is a 6 hour long gaping hole.
And it was all fast-forwarded in the story.

Uh, yea, and Natsuhi was keeping everyone in the fucking parlor at gunpoint and wasn't allowing anyone to go out by themselves except in groups of two or more.

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There were no such reds.

[red]Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist![/red]

This means that Rosa (for example), whose corpse was identified by Battler, could not have been faking their death, and therefore could not have been hiding in Eva and Hideyoshi's room. Anyone who was not a corpse was with Battler's group when they investigated, and thus obviously could not have been hiding out.

The only corpse Battler did not observe himself was Shannon's, and only Hideyoshi and Kanon can even confirm that she was actually there. This is, of course, because she wasn't, because she was Kanon. And Kanon was the only one who could've cut the chain and performed the murder in the time it took Genji to notify everybody and construct alibis.

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Yes. An illusion of safety. Because Eva and Hideyoshi didn't suspect their own son, they thought it would prevent killer from entering.

Do you even have a motive for George? Also [purple]George isn't capable of killing anyone except kids.[/purple]

Quote:

Hollywood style makeup and effects require work of hollywood style makeup and effect artists. Were there any hollywood artists on the island who could've arranged all of that? And wouldn't you think that Eva and Hideyoshi would be curious to see these artists in action?

See below.

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I don't get what you mean here.

It means Ryukishi makes people insta-dry and non-wet when they're not in the rain because he doesn't want to deal with puzzles regarding rainy footsteps on the floorboards and such, and pretty much fudges the reality of the stories to comply. This applies to other devices such as guns never missing when used to kill, Shkanon being able to change clothes pretty much instantly, disguising people as corpses being perfect unless the reds say otherwise, and so on.

Ryukishi has the rules of mystery genre override actual reality, as demonstrated by Erika's use of them. And it's justified by the fact that even in-universe, these are fictional events.

If Yasu has effectively infinite money plus willing cohorts, she can perfectly disguise people as corpses. The power of money is 'the power to do anything in the human world', so skill is not applicable as a deterrent. Fuck maybe Genji just has fucking awesome skills in every possible task like every other fictional butler.

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Logic doesn't work like that.
They are either humans or not humans.
They can't be "humans for her purposes". That's not a valid logic assertion.

Yes, which is when you as a reader are supposed to realize that the Reds are talking about Beatrice's personal truth, not objective reality. That's what she actually wants people to figure out.

Everyone on the island acknowledges and treats Shannon and Kanon as people, and so they are. A lie that everyone accepts becomes the truth. This is said in episode one, and is infact the premise of Beatrice's win condition.

Quote:

We'll need a japanese translator to decide this one. Maybe it's more evident what is meant in japanese version.

For the record, I am Japanese. And I'm not seriously debating this point, only pointing out that your method isn't actually helpful for deduction, because the translators would've had to make decisions on ambiguous matters of wording without knowing Ryukishi's intent ahead of time.

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I doesn't make any sense. By this logic Shannon's breast must be real because Battler thinks that they are real.

He never observes her breasts. They're covered up and, as she and Will both basically admit, gettin' sum would've let Battler figure everything out.

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That's not what happened there.
Battler proved that he wasn't detective because detective cannot lie. And Battler lied that he saw Kinzo. And proof that he lied is the red that states that nobody would mistake Kinzo.

It's kind of a little of column A, a little of column B. Further evidence is in EP6, where giving up her detective's authority means Erika is unable to tell if people are actually dead, even if she inspects them herself. She can only make an informed guess.

Battler never had this issue. When he observes a dead person, they dead.

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You must recall that in both second and fourth games, Jessica's corpse lies on it's chest, face down. And is it mentioned that Battler flips her corpse to see the face? No.

It never really says he didn't, and he was actively playing detective by Beato's own admission. The text also says that he checked to make sure everyone was actually dead, implying at the very least that he was taking pulses or investigating wounds, and that he didn't care if he disturbed the crime scenes for the police.

So yea, he probably saw her face. Half of it was left intact on purpose.

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There would be evidence left suggesting that corpses were moved.
For example blood in places where they really died.

See above.

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You may say what they represent. But you can't say what they really represent.
That's the thing with metaphors. They can be interpreted in different ways.

That's why a lot of the time the characters pretty much spell it out. As Ange does in EP6, lol.

She and Chick-Beato literally talk about how the latter was born to receive Battler's love, and the other Beato mentions that she's the ghost that plays pranks at night to regain her power.

There's interpretting things differently and there's willful ignorance, dude.

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Erika wasn't one of the goats.

The EP8 Goats represent everyone who tries to solve the mystery for fun without caring about the heart. This describes Erika for most of her development arc. At the end of EP6, her refusal to look at the 'why' instead of the how, and look for the symbolic text means that Beatrice is able to trap her in a situation where every solution is wrong.

The prose then goes on to say that in that moment, Erika understood the gameboard, and Beatrice truly won her respect. She is then defeated.

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Nanjo is a general practitionist.
There is no way he would take care of birthgiving.

He delivered Kinzo's incest baby just fine. Just sayin'.

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That's how it's portrayed in manga. But that isn't a proof.
Manga works with the same rules as the VN.
Everything that isn't red and isn't detective's story can be doubted.

Ryukishi literally said this kind of thinking was wrong in almost every interview he's ever had on the subject of Umineko.

Erika, who held this attitude, was fucking owned in her last battle of EP6. Will, who actually figured out the truth, refused to have a red/blue truth battle, and relied entirely on black ink/white text.

So the novel itself says you're wrong to have this sort of attitude. The red is only pulled out due to Battler's stubbornness and inability to cooperate civilly with Beatrice.

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Okay, then let's hear your full explanation.
How did Shannon see that charm on the other side of the door, without waking Natsuhi.
You must provide a step by step instruction which doesn't contradict any of these facts:
Door opens inwards.
Room is dark
Natsuhi has sleeping problems.
Shannon goes in with the intention of killing Natsuhi.
Shannon goes in without prior knowledge of the charm
Shannon has only 2 hands.

Open door. Look around. See charm on door handle. Close door.

It's that easy. Hell, maybe Shannon, in the dark, was going to close the door by it's interior handle and felt the charm.

Quote:

That must not matter to the detective.
The argument was that detective can somehow never be deceived to make a mistake in his observations.
And a transgender, dressing sometimes like a boy and sometimes like a girl is exactly that.

Beatrice's premise of the game is that Shannon and Kanon count as humans. Battler is also an inherently trusting individual who refuses to distrust the other humans on the island.

Quote:

Just because it has a lot of word red, doesn't make it "red truth". We all know how red truth looks like. It's simply red text shown to the reader. And if it's written on red paper, that means that text itself isn't red. And besides, Ryu didn't even need to involve red paper and red fragment. All he needed to do is for one of the Witches to tell her that This is all truth , the same way it was done for Eva's diary.
Instead he does it the roundabout way, making readers think that it's red truth without explicitly stating it.

Ryukishi has confirmed in a magazine interview that the red paper is meant to be treated the same way as the Red Truth, and specifically requested the mangaka to follow certain rules and to get certain leeway from publishers.

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Wasn't you the one who said that Yasu doesn't have identity disorder?
Therefore if one of his personalities is servant, then he is too servant.

I think you misinterpreted what they said. Yasu does not possess Dissociative Identity Disorder, but she wears different masks, essentially roleplaying. She is the secret head of the family, who is pretending to be a servant.

It's also irrelevant, as that Dine's rule doesn't work like that and Dine's rules don't apply to Umineko anyway.

Quote:

There are multiple culprits, but only one of them is mastermind, and this mastermind is the true culprit.

Yea, see, problem.

"12. There must be but one culprit, no matter how many murders are committed. The culprit may, of course, have a minor helper or co-plotter; but the entire onus must rest on one pair of shoulders: the entire indignation of the reader must be permitted to concentrate on a single black nature."

Dine's rules stipulated that only one person may commit murder in the stories. Helpers or Co-Plotters are for things like alibis, but not committing murders in the culprit's absence.

So either abandon this line of reasoning or abandon the legitimacy of Dine's rules.

GoldenLand · 2014-11-05, 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It never really says he didn't, and he was actively playing detective by Beato's own admission. The text also says that he checked to make sure everyone was actually dead, implying at the very least that he was taking pulses or investigating wounds, and that he didn't care if he disturbed the crime scenes for the police.

So yea, he probably saw her face. Half of it was left intact on purpose.

If we're talking Battler's inspection of Jessica's corpse in ep 4, she's definitely not lying down, let alone face down.

Quote:

"The phone receiver was loose and dangling.
......Had she been killed while on the phone with me?

Jessica was leaning against the wall right next to it, ......with half of her head split open.

As far as I could tell by looking at the scene, ......it looked as though she had been killed while on the phone."

".........From what I could tell by looking at Jessica's corpse, there were no wounds on her other than the damage to her head."

In the manga, she is also portrayed leaning against the wall. Facing into the room, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

If you want to know what sparked my reaction, just read his every response since page 1730.
And by the way it was about his whole post, just didn't want to make a huge quote there.
If someone is wrong I can correct them, no problem.
But if someone is wrong, while at the same time throwing an unending barrage of insults and sarcasm, I don't have enough patience.

Yeah, Levani wasn't treating you with a lot of respect, but calling people fucking idiots is too much. Especially since Levani was actually completely right and had perfectly sound reasoning about the thing that caused you to snap at them. But even if they had been wrong, that sort of insult would still be uncalled for. I like to argue with people on the Umineko forums, and Umineko forums are great locations to argue with people for fun, but the moderators will definitely step in and shut down discussions if things get too heated, so keeping things reasonably civil is essential.

Mali · 2014-11-05, 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I think that's why Knox's third in the game is "It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist." Because it's only a hidden passage if the Detective can't find it, so they're forbidden.

The original Knox rule is kinder about this, and says that "No more than one secret room or passage is allowable" but only if the house is one where a hidden passage could be expected. I suppose Ryukishi wanted to be able to rule out the existence of hidden passages outright.

What about the closet? The inside was never checked....That's almost the same as the closed servants room.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Hmm, I think I'm missing something here.

"Kanon does not exist in the guest room. .........Of course, this includes all parts of the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom."

So he can't be in the closet, and I don't see how he could have left the guest room via the closet.

Erika cannot be the rescuer of Battler, since there's red saying that. It doesn't rule out that she could be the rescuer of Kanon, but I don't think there's anything she did while she was in there that could have saved Kanon.

Yeah I can only give up on this with the common interpretation of the closed guest room.
But I got an idea today after rereading some parts of the 5th game. It was inspired by "Battler Solves The Logic Error" on yt.
Let me explain it. It's about the words "room" and "guest room" and the definition of going in or out. Erika requested definitions. I copied from the wiki:

Quote:

[Request: 'From the time I entered the room to the time of the logic error, Battler, Kanon, and I were the only ones who entered or exited the room.'] I acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room to the time of the logic error, you, Battler, and Kanon were the only ones who went in or out of the guest room.

[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?]
Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

[Request: 'The word guest room includes all of the bedroom, the bathroom, and the closet.'] I acknowledge it.

[Request: 'The definition of going in or out refers to when someone crosses the boundary between the guest room and the area outside it.'] I acknowledge it.

The game ended while I was inside the guest room, so I did not undo the chain lock that I had previously set. So, it can't be that he escaped behind my back after I left the room. Furthermore, the chain lock was set at the same time I entered the room. No one could have left the room during the few seconds between the time I entered and the time I set the chain lock.

Got it? The red truth has more truths than Erika wanted.

Bluetruth:
It's possible to construct a theory for Kanon to dissapear from the guestroom using missing definitions of "the room", "enter" and "leave". "The room" was never refered as the "guest room" and doesn't include all of the bathroom, the bedroom and the closet. Otherwise the guest room was refered as "this room".
It may be true that he never left "the room",but it doesn't not deny that he can left (or went out) the guest room!
Thus he can disappear from the guestroom!
I say more.
"The room includes place X that's not hidden and the guest room
Like Ronove said in the 5th game there is no rule to call A as B.

I would say more if I can be sure if Knox 3 only applies to the guestroom.

Edit: Does anyone know the answer to the "6 coins and 3 cups" problem? I mean, do you really have to cut 1 coin into two pieces?

2014-11-05, 04:38	Link #34626
Levani 貴方が私のマスターか？ Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Georgia, Tbilisi	Okay, I'm done here too, have nice day and fuck you.