2008-04-13, 19:09 | Link #21 |
Hina is my goddess
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I really have no problem with cliches. In fact, i like a lot of cliche character types. It makes me fell familiar with the character faster, and i can enjoy the story more knowing i don't need to figure out whats going on in there head. The problem i have is with cliche endings. I think endings should be the some of the best part of the story, and if i can easily guess the ending, the story is a loss for me. Cliche story lines after boarder on copying, sometimes, but i find "original" story lines are often a complete mess and are impossible to follow.
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2008-04-13, 19:18 | Link #22 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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Lots of wise posts here, with lots of different viewpoints that I can somewhat agree with on all sides. I think it just shows how complex the concept is -- despite the fact that almost by definition the substance of a cliché tends to be utterly shallow. I don't have much to add, but sometimes I feel that a mix of familiarity and originality (and oh how I hate the "originality is dead" cliché ) produce the best works. It knocks the socks off the audience, to use a cliché, but there's also a nice old homely carpet to take the fall. There's also the matter of execution to use an old clichéd argument in which defines which artistic production is enjoyable and which is utterly trite. A masterful execution hides many flaws. An original execution breaks the cliché itself. |
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2008-04-13, 20:45 | Link #24 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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When I watch something cliche this is what goes through my head "This is the same goddamn storyline with the same type of goddamn generic and flat characters all over again for the millionth time." I easily predicted events in a series like Death Note, under this line of thought, I would define Death Note as cliche, but it is not. Measuring cliche is irrelevant, because cliche is relative to the person watching it anyways. Again let me requote myself what cliche actually is, 1. Stereotypical - a widely held but fixed and oversimflied image or idea of a particular type of person or thing 2. in art, literature, drama, etc.) a trite or hackneyed plot, character development, use of color, musical expression, etc. 3. anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse. Nothing about predictability is stated there!
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2008-04-13, 21:29 | Link #25 | |
ISML Technical Staff
Graphic Designer
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2008-04-14, 06:50 | Link #26 |
eyewitness
Join Date: Jan 2007
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My remark aimed at distinguishing between "cliché" and just "has been done before" not at testing arbitrary elements of a story without looking at their broader function. It's not meant to classify the fact the sune rises in the east and sets in the west.
A story follows the rules of physics and society as they are in RL or as they are constructed within the story. A protagonist will act within the bounds of his character. Many crime stories are meant to have a predicable outcome if one pays attention. And so on. In so far some elements will always be predictable. Otherwise there weren't a plot, just white noise. It's necessary that there is more than one likely alternative in the first place. If there are three possible outcomes of an action A, B, and, C and you're willing to bet money on A although there's no logical reason that it's not B or C then it's probably a cliché. Worse, if there's an infinite number of likely alternatives of if A is realistically even quite unlikely. Then there is the case where you can predict an outcome because it's the only way to keep the story going. That's also not a cliché (although its execution might be); that's simply bad scripting. So if you can predict events in DN through logical reasoning then it's not a cliché. Otherwise the only alternatives I see at the moment are sheer luck or because it's "stereotypical", "hackneyed", "overused".
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2008-04-14, 16:19 | Link #27 |
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
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I agree with Slice of Life. The basic element of all narrative is structured, which will inevitably lead to at least one cliche during the span of that narrative. There has to be a protagonist, an antagonist, a conflict, a resolution. Stories that stray from the basic principles of writing tend to fail miserably (although there are some exceptions, generally abstract).
Cliche isn't a bad thing in itself though. Cliches are only bad when they are overused. Predictability is a sign of overuse, but it's also a sign of poor writing. A recent anime example is Dragonaut, with cliches and terrible script writing all over the place. On the other end of the spectrum is something like Lain or Mushishi, where nonlinear or episodic writing takes the cliche and makes something new from it. Now the tired cliche can still be enjoyable. People have been milking the same cliches for decades. They'll wear out, then be brought back for new people to enjoy. What's old is new again, in a sense. Has every story been told, every song been written, every idea been thought of before? No. Originality is not dead. Creativity is not dead. As long as there is a human who pushes the limits of imagination, there will always be new creations. But structure plays an important part in how those creations enter the world and how they play out, but barring revolution, structure takes a long time to change.
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2008-04-14, 16:59 | Link #28 |
カカシ
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Whole movies/books/anime have become about cliches and ridiculing them, take the first episode of The Melancholy of Haruhi for example, the narrator basically explains word by word what is going to happen in a sarcastic tone blatently implying 'we are ridiculing cliches'. Although sometimes funny personally I find it distasteful because to me it signals - the ideas have run out so we're taking the easy option and using material that has already been done and ridiculing it. Of course there are exceptions when these things are done really well because the writer/director adds their own spin of originality to the cliche such as upsurd setting and circumstances etc.
As for cliches in anime I would agree with Kholdstare. As long as it's executed well, usually it ends up being unique. Being original is not that important but I guess those who can somehow be completely original and execute it in a believable yet breathtaking manner can truly create a master piece. A good example being Tolkein. He took the meaning of original to a entirely different level by creating a new world, new languages and still somehow making core themes such as the power of friendship the real focus of the entire story. That's what a true master of any medium is. Of course story telling is still business when you're working for money so risk has to be taken into account. |
2008-04-26, 03:38 | Link #29 | ||
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Thank you for the responses. I enjoyed reading them and I hope for more if possible. ^^ Last edited by Blackmoon042; 2008-04-26 at 04:34. |
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