Mari Okada discussion

[Maxulous]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

The biggest red flag for me (and here, we're spoiled for choice) is Okada'a abysmal track record when "updating" established, long-running franchises. Charitably, she's a butcher.

Charitably, you're not even that familiar with said franchises so don't pretend to be.

Mine Fujiko, for one, was an arresting departure from the usual and didn't actually butcher anything canon once all was said and done.

I think others have stated it, but Gundam from its purist form has been butchered many times over - so one more potential fuck up is nothing to bemoan.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

*so it seems I F'd my previous post and unintentionally deleted it . so here I am reposting my replies*

Originally Posted by darkchibi07

But there's potential she won't create terrible or useless female characters in the Gundam show; they will be a step above all the past ones, right?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I probably like HSI's Ohana and True Tears' Noe more than any Gundam female character, so yeah, that's a very possible advantage with Okada here.

Are you all implying that previous Gundam series only have terrible or useless female characters? No way, far from it. How far do you actually know the franchise? There’s a lot of badass or empowered female characters (that don’t just scream and wait to be helped by the males, heck they even save the males’ lives) which is prominent throughout the Gundam franchise:

MS Gundam: Sayla Mass, Crowley Hamon, Matilda Ajan, Kycilia Zabi (evil, but smart and competent leader), heck even Frau Bow and Mirai Yashima are useful and resourceful characters.
MS Zeta Gundam: Emma Sheen, Lila Rira, Reccoa Londe, Mouar Farao, Four Murasame (she is a strong woman that is meant for tragedy), and Haman Karn (A female character that is Char’s equal. That itself should say a lot. She put many other modern and today’s anime female characters to shame),
MS Gundam ZZ (Double-Zeta): Roux Louka, Ple/Puru Two, Haman Karn (her awesomeness is reduced but still a great character nonetheless)
Gundam 0080: Christina MacKenzie (official pilot of the main Gundam. Yes, you hear that right, a female who pilots the only Gundam in her own series and is pretty badass in it).

Those are only four of the oldest entry from UC timeline. All of those are impressive achievements considering the era they were released. There are other great female-characters from other UC outings as well as from Alternate Universe like Rain Mikamura (G Gundam), Lady Une (Gundam Wing), Ennil El (Gundam X), Murrue Ramius (Gundam SEED), Talia Gladys (SEED Destiny), Sumeragi/Lisa Kujoh (Gundam 00), I can go on and on, but I think you’re smart enough to get the point by now.

But to be fair, if there is a Gundam series that deserve your derision in treating its female characters, it’s Gundam AGE. Why? Because almost all of the main female characters are treated as spoils or walking wombs for the MCs to marry and impregnate. That’s one of many things why the fans hate it, and it was a disaster both creatively and financially.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yeah, that's actually what disappoints me the most here. I've always thought it would be neat to have a Gundam or Gundam-style show with the ace pilot MC being a female character

Christina Mackenzie and her "Alex" would like to say hi

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She pilots the only Gundam in Gundam 0080 OVAs. Granted it's "just" a mini series and the story unfolds from the POV of a grade-school kid. So yeah, Sunrise/Bandai still owe Gundam-fans a female MC for the long-running TV-series.

Originally Posted by IceHism

Also, why is everyone saying gundam has no strong female character? Haman Karn is great

Haman can definitely crush most other anime female characters in terms of independency (to men), charisma, leadership, authority, and the overall empowerment.



Not to mention she's a rather charming antagonist and a great character overall. Oh, and she beat Char the Red Comet in Mobile Suit fights too.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Maxulous

Charitably, you're not even that familiar with said franchises so don't pretend to be.

Mine Fujiko, for one, was an arresting departure from the usual and didn't actually butcher anything canon once all was said and done.

But Enzo will never forgive her for her Kenshin adaptation

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by totoum

But Enzo will never forgive her for her Kenshin adaptation

That should certainly never be forgiven, but the list is long and illustrious. She does a terrible job with existing franchises, in my view without exception in her entire career. Her good work has come with adaptations where she's working with strong source material, and some of her original series (though by no means all).

[Maxulous]

Originally Posted by totoum

But Enzo will never forgive her for her Kenshin adaptation

Sure, she's no angel. Not even a fan of hers (I only cared for Simoun & Fujiko). But I was referring more to the "updated" long-running ones like Gundam and Lupin.

I don't keep up with current franchises so can't really comment on damage done there, but at worst, Mari Okada will merely join a list of bad things to happen to Gundam.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Are you all implying that previous Gundam series only have terrible or useless female characters?

I can't speak for darkchibi07, but I'm not implying that.

Gundam has many good female characters, though I would argue that the better ones tend to be in the older Gundam shows, as your own list of characters arguably attests. So in current times, there is room for improvement here.

So my main point here is just that this is one area where Okada might improve current Gundam. Really, I'm just looking for silver linings to Okada tackling Gundam. I think Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans should be given a chance at least. Okada definitely has her weaknesses as a writer, but I think she's a good enough writer overall that this upcoming Gundam show shouldn't be considered doomed before it even airs.


Though Archon has a point on antagonists. Okada can write fun over-the-top hammy antagonists (one of WIXOSS' main strengths, for me). But can she write a more nuanced antagonist, like you sometimes seem in a leadership position in a major military or governmental faction in Gundam? That probably is a concern.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I can't speak for darkchibi07, but I'm not implying that.

Gundam has many good female characters, though I would argue that the better ones tend to be in the older Gundam shows, as your own list of characters arguably attests. So in current times, there is room for improvement here.

That's cool then.

Well, I didn’t continue my list because it will probably be too long . If you want me to name good-to-great female characters from recent series then here I go with some of the most recent outings:
Gundam 00 (2007 – 2009): Sumeragi/Lisa Kujoh, Kati Mannequinn, Some Peries/Marie Parfacy, and to some extend Shirin Bakhtiar & Marina Ismail who, despite many trials, keep on fighting for their people and country (in action or diplomatically) with or without help.
Gundam Unicorn (2010 – 2014): Marida Cruz/Ple Twelve & Audrey Burne/Mineva Lao Zabi,
Gundam Build Fighters Try (2014): Lady Kawaguchi (she's just awesome ) & Fumina Hoshino, one of the three MCs who is portrayed as the wisest and most mature.
Gundam the Origin (2015 - still ongoing): Crowley Hamon & Kycilia Zabi given more screentime to explore more on their past.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So my main point here is just that this is one area where Okada might improve current Gundam. Really, I'm just looking for silver linings to Okada tackling Gundam. I think Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans should be given a chance at least. Okada definitely has her weaknesses as a writer, but I think she's a good enough writer overall that this upcoming Gundam show shouldn't be considered doomed before it even airs.

We, Gundam fans, admit that one of the most recent TV series (Reconguista) is a beautiful mess, but a mess nonetheless. And the less we talk about Gundam AGE (2011) the better. And I agree that anything good Okada can offer will certainly be welcomed, but beside those two duds, Gundam franchise (even recently) has never short on good female characters. Just want to point that out, and I like your little bit of optimism on the upcoming Tekketsu no Orphan .

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Though Archon has a point on antagonists. Okada can write fun over-the-top hammy antagonists (one of WIXOSS' main strengths, for me). But can she write a more nuanced antagonist, like you sometimes seem in a leadership position in a major military or governmental faction in Gundam? That probably is a concern.

Yeah, that I can agree. Still, considering she already proved to be able to write a nuanced-enough "villain" in M3: Sono Kuroki Hagane in the form of Tsugumi, a victim-girl broken due to being left alone in a horrific environment for years, it's not impossible that Okada can do better. So I'm mixed, but trying to be positive about it.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

That should certainly never be forgiven, but the list is long and illustrious.

For the sake of reference (and so that everyone is on the same page) do you mind providing that list?

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Please for the love of god no. The last thing I ever want is for her to destroy a reputable franchise that I personally love with her bullsh*t.

I just don't see how her BS is incompatible with Macross. What would she going to do, put in some comedic crossdressing?



Give the MC a ballbreaking commander?

Every big franchise she got her hands on has been smeared badly by her - Lupin, Rurouni Kenshin, Aqarion, Black Butler and now most likely with Gundam.

When did Fujiko Mine become so despised?

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

That's cool then.

Well, I didn’t continue my list because it will probably be too long . If you want me to name good-to-great female characters from recent series then here I go with some of the most recent outings:
Gundam 00 (2007 – 2009): Sumeragi/Lisa Kujoh, Kati Mannequinn, Some Peries/Marie Parfacy, and to some extend Shirin Bakhtiar & Marina Ismail who, despite many trials, keep on fighting for their people and country (in action or diplomatically) with or without help.
Gundam Unicorn (2010 – 2014): Marida Cruz/Ple Twelve & Audrey Burne/Mineva Lao Zabi,
Gundam Build Fighters Try (2014): Lady Kawaguchi (she's just awesome ) & Fumina Hoshino, one of the three MCs who is portrayed as the wisest and most mature.
Gundam the Origin (2015 - still ongoing): Crowley Hamon & Kycilia Zabi given more screentime to explore more on their past.

Don't forget Aila from the original Build Fighters and Shia as well for Try .

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Speaking of crossdressing, Gundam franchise has its fair share of crossdressing that happened in the show for the sake of scouting, deception and infiltration :

Contestant #1
Rolan Cehack: The MC from Turn-A Gundam
Codename: Laura Rolla

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Contestant #2
Tieria Erde: One of four MCs from Gundam 00
Codename: Ms. Erde

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Contestant #3 (last and probably the least)
Judau Ashta: The MC from Gundam ZZ (Double-Zeta)
Codename: Judy

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All in all, crossdressing is fun as long as it’s done in the right time and the right place. Let’s see how Okada can/will top these predecessors.

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Originally Posted by Frontier

Don't forget Aila from the original Build Fighters and Shia as well for Try .

I knew I forget some gals. Thanks for the reminder .

[Archon_Wing]

I am very aware of these. That's what I brought it up.

Just like how despite what people may say about Okada's work on Lupin; it actually does keep in spirit of the series.

Spoiler:

Oscar was wacky, exploitative, and dumb, but that was the whole point. Plus it was funny.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Haak

For the sake of reference (and so that everyone is on the same page) do you mind providing that list?

RK. Kuroshitsuji. Lupin. Aquarion. Black Butler is especially illustrative because the season she adapted from the manga material was fine, but when she went original she turned it into a dumpster fire.

Okada's Gundam certainly won't be the first disastrous Gundam series. But given her track record with established franchises and this sort of material generally, there's no reason to expect it won't be disastrous.

[Haak]

That's fine. At least I know where you're coming from now. (Didn't know you were a fan of Aquarion though)

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

RK. Kuroshitsuji. Lupin. Aquarion. Black Butler is especially illustrative because the season she adapted from the manga material was fine, but when she went original she turned it into a dumpster fire.

We really going to pretend that Aquarion was good now just to shit on a writer? Fuck Aquarion put me in nearly a 2 year hiatus from anime when I watched the first 4-5 episodes when it aired in 2005... That spring 07 season brought me back though, GOAT Anime season.

[Reckoner]

Yeah seriously. Okada damn doesn't deserve absolute faith by any stretch of the imagination (What writer these days does really?), but let's not use the Aquarion franchise as an example of something precious being burned by the big bad writer LOL.

[Guardian Enzo]

I never used the word "precious". Nevertheless, I don't hear you disputing that her crack at it was a disaster.

[Arya]

I know probably my tastes are particular, but to me EVOL raised Aquarion to an enjoyable, to a certain extent, and decent show, to go back to where it was with this new series. Is it Okada merits? I don't know and I don't care.
My opinion about her writing is that we should separate what she write to what she is asked to write as also what amuses her to write to what she love writing. Not really an easy task. But the fact that she is still so valued should be telling a bit to discern that differences.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I probably like HSI's Ohana and True Tears' Noe more than any Gundam female character, so yeah, that's a very possible advantage with Okada here.

Honestly, I agree with...


Yeah, that's actually what disappoints me the most here. I've always thought it would be neat to have a Gundam or Gundam-style show with the ace pilot MC being a female character (Rinne no Lagrange came very close, but it's not quite the same as what I'm dreaming of here). Okada would have been great for that. But oh well...

mmm, don't know if it's possible to make such a comparison, like say, with Lacus that is a favorite of mine, they are too peculiar imho, and I find it true even on a more wider scope.
In any case despite I like them both a lot, I'd see Hiromi more fitting for that role, but it depends on the kind of development you look for. I'd like to see something more close to a badass. Something along the lines of Hina (BC) or Rayet.
I honestly dropped Rinne no Lagrange, there was definitely something missing for me, in a similar way to Majestic Prince or in the end in buddy Complex too.

Damn I was trying to remember some show with female protagonist and I had one just under my nose. Ah-a, I completely forgot Ange due to certain settings of the show.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I never used the word "precious". Nevertheless, I don't hear you disputing that her crack at it was a disaster.

I don't think Reckoner cares enough about Aquarion to dispute anything on it.

I would dispute it (and Lupin for that matter) but I've been down this road plenty of times before.

[DragoonKain3]

I'd personally have Okada do Macross, as her writing style I think fits that better. She can absolutely go ham on romantic triangles, and it isn't her first idol show. Like I've always imagined the premise of Macross to be Music, Melodrama, and Mechas, and for me she has shown she can do all three well.

Yeah speaking of Mechas, say whatever you want of Evol, but at least it was entertaining for its run. Logos is currently boring me to tears, and it doesn't have enough 'campiness' that made the original Aquarion fun. Evol in that regards stays true to the original, and Logos is only keeping me watching solely due to Sakura Ayane.

Sure, Okada has recently been a miss for me. The latest graffiti show was pretty much SoL moe, M3 tried to be horror but I'm put to sleep of the genre, and Wixoss was pretty much Madoka-lite (and I never liked Madoka for obvious reasons). So honestly, I have no frigging clue how Okada got the job, but hey, after AGE, Recognista in G, and Build Fighters, I'd take ANY change to Gundam.

As for how well she'll do, I'm just hopeful she'll be able to mimic Blast of Tempest. Sure that was based on a source, and this Gundam will be original, but if she is able to mimic all the protagonist and the faction conflict there, I'm sure she'd do well in Gundam.