Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice

[Westlo]

Holy shit was the dream sequences and the "cameo's" handled badly in this film....

[Akito Kinomoto]

Spoiler for Length:

Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice stars Ben Affleck, Henry Cavill, and Jesse Eisenberg. Directed by Zack Snyder, the film deals with the aftermath of the events of Man of Steel and Bruce Wayne’s disdain for Superman

Now before going to see the film I heard a lot of mixed reactions about it on a Man of Steel-type level, and that had me worried. I hated Man of Steel. All of the dialog was a Jesus metaphor for a character impossible to empathize with and the message of hope clashed horribly with the tone of the film. Thankfully, Batman v Superman doesn’t build a worthless Gary Stu and this time, the message, the thematic, the story itself matches the tone of the film

What do I mean by that? Well, in dealing with the aftermath of Man of Steel, the film expertly presents the dilemma of “what would happen if this Godlike being really existed?” It addresses the collateral damage someone like this would cause. It plays into people’s fear or respect of someone who could wipe out the planet if he wanted to. It deals in wanting a measure of morally or physically keeping this being in check. The story in general plays into a lot of uncertainty that perfectly matches the dark tone of the film. And the best part is it never feels heavy handed. There’s never a moment where it feels like I’m watching characters espouse from a philosophy textbook because the context is there to naturally flow into it, and the characters themselves feel like this dialog is important to them instead of the other way around

And of course helping into the tone is the film’s brilliant illustration of Bruce Wayne’s disdain for Superman. You can feel what he’s lost to the collateral damage of Superman’s actions. You can feel the rage quietly boiling inside him. And you can feel the fear—yes, FEAR—he has of this Godlike being. It’s twisted this man into a very cruel and intimidating person. Maybe moreso than he might’ve already been. And that’s also saying something of how much Ben Affleck just threw himself into the role of Bruce Wayne. Because holy shit this Batman is terrifying. The deep voice that lacks the crackliness of Christian Bale, both the hulking armored suit and the gritty feeling of the normal suit, the actions he takes, and some brilliant camera work actually made me really scared at points. Seriously

As for Clark Kent, Henry Cavill once again plays Superman and I have to say I liked the character here a lot more than I thought I would; it’s amazing how much more tolerable a character becomes when you stop reminding us how amazing they are. It also helps that there’s a lot of interplay between Clark and the other characters for him to bounce off for us to better empathize with, and the moments where he’s mostly alone are few and far between. Maybe the old Superman ’78 film or the comics make a man of steel who can stand on his own, but as it is, THIS Superman is only as good as his Justice League. Or his civilian friends. Or his villain. It’s a shame because I see glimpses of a much better Superman when Henry Cavill has a chance to really act, but overall it’s just a solid portrayal

Speaking of villains, Jesse Eisenberg plays Lex Luthor in an epic miscast. And he doesn’t play Lex Luthor. He doesn’t play the calm, eloquent, gentlemen that I’ve come to expect whether it was the mad scientist Luthor, the corporate Luthor, the Smallville Luthor, or even an alternate reality good guy Luthor (thank you Injustice). No. He plays the Joker who has Lex Luthor’s name. In that respect, as a portrayal of Lex Luthor, it much failed. But as for Jesse Eisenberg’s performance itself, it’s really unfortunate that his best moments are the moments where he doesn’t need to speak. Eisenberg, unlike Heisenberg, is too over the top to be taken seriously most of the time. That’s kind of a big problem for your villain of the film to have, film

But the biggest problem Batman v Superman has is a lack of cohesion brought on by sloppy editing. The three major plot threads of Batman’s story, Superman’s story, and Lex Luthor’s story, writing wise, actually tie in together reasonable well. But the editing itself feels very obvious and abrupt as it jumps from plot to plot, especially in the first half or so of the film. It’s 2 ½ hours FAST and not in a good way. It often feels like there’s a lack of establishing shots or they go by so fast that it only establishes confusion

It’s a shame because Bruce and Clark’s stories by themselves are really good, though the plotline with Lex Luthor leaves more to be desired than just Jesse Eisenberg’s acting. The best way I can describe Lex Luthor’s storyline is to suddenly introduce another Wicked Witch after Dorothy and her friends made it to Oz, and the Witch says “aha! You fell into my trap! Just as planned!” Something happens toward the final act of the film where Luthor’s evil scheme crosses the line from “genius you couldn’t anticipate” to “go home writers, you’re drunk.” What really hurts is the buildup of the scheme through the rest of the film is actually solid

Now I heard the original cut of this film was somewhere around 3 hours and looking at the way this is edited, I wouldn’t be surprised if that were true. Maybe the director’s cut BD release will feel a lot smoother because it gives to context for everything to really make sense. There are building blocks of other DC characters shoved into the film in a really painful “we need to catch up to Marvel” way, and as stupid as they are, it’s thankfully only 2, maybe 3 scenes tops. But NOT on the list of DC’s cameo casualties is Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman; she isn’t in the film a lot, but when she is, her personality oozes with sensuality, strength, and wit. It was her first appearance on the big screen and they made certain they did her character justice, especially in the final fight scene

The best way I can describe the action scenes overall is escalating exclamation points to a very thoughtful film. It doesn’t blow its load all at once toward the end, they’re quite spaced out, and at least here, the editing combined with the story context itself makes for something that lets you catch your breath after it’s taken it away. There’s never a point where an action scene just feels exhausting up until the final act. And unfortunately this final act is a step down from Man of Steel’s final act, of all things. The thing is, the levels of destruction between Superman and Zod, and the final act of Batman v Superman, needed to be reversed. There’s a certain element in Batman v Superman’s final act that actually SHOULD be causing city wide destruction, but the way it’s presented in the film it looks and feels oddly localized

But despite all its faults, this is still a really solid film. I wasn’t expecting a partway Man of Steel sequel to be something I actually really liked considering how much I hated Man of Steel. For as many negatives as there are, the strength of Batman and Superman’s stories alone more than carries everything that was crammed into the film, or covers things that might’ve been ruthlessly carved out. But I can’t really hold it against someone if a weak villain plotline or choppy editing or forced cameos really bring down the film. No, you have a right and RESPONSIBILITY to demand better films. But I’m also at a point where I’ve learned how to zone in on where a piece puts all of its effort despite its shortcomings elsewhere. I can tell how much this film is really trying. It’s not fantastic, but it really tried and succeeded to not be bad

This is not the film we were hoping for, but the film that gave us hope for DC. The good manages to outweigh the bad just enough that it creeps past the realm of average enough for me to give it a

[HasuMasu]

I think Man of Steel was a better movie, but I liked this more mostly because of Batman. I'm looking forward to the future of DC movies, and this does a good job of setting up future stuff.

[justavisitor]

I liked man of steel, and I like this movie too

Spoiler for spoiler:

darker than avengers, which I really like. The director doesn't instill many jokes into the movie, it's a refreshing change actually after all the years of watching marvel hero movie

I understand it's a bit confusing at the first half, when the plot keeps switching between bruce and clarke, but what else can the producer do, really? They are not on the same team to start with, and unless you want to focus more into batman or superman alone, I believe the staff has done what they could do. Besides, it's actually very easy for the audience to understand the plot despite all the switching between batman and superman at the early part of the film

Overall, don't get carried away by the negative review. I think it's definitely worth a watch.

[Shinji103]

Just got done watching it and I can never understand how people can complain about enjoyable stuff so much. I loved this movie (and MoS), and I wonder if these "critics" ever actually enjoy anything.
This movie acually surpassed my expectations, because I went into this movie expecting the framing of Superman to be all hammy with the senator buying Luthor's kill-aid wholesale. I also expected the public to outright crucify Superman unilaterally. Instead, the senator remained level-headed and there were actually smart public voices sticking up for Superman, correctly calling him "just a guy who wants to help."
A lot of the reason Superman was feared so much was because of his worshippers treating him like a god on their own. Then the fearmongers just assumed he had a god complex.
So Luthor hints at another alien attack coming, and Bruce is having dreams which seem more to me like premonitions than just random. Especially the dream with the guy who looks like he's coming out of boom tube. (or it was just supposed to be some kind of time-travel common action tunnel or something, and who was that guy supposed to be?) But then there were also what looked like Parademons too. If the Justice League movie is to feature a big-time bad (of course), Darkseid would be the way to go.
And I actually loved the cameo recordings of the other future JL members. But I thought I heard somewhere that Green Lantern had a cameo too.

Anyway, ignore the negative hype about BvS and make up your own mind. People said Affleck would be a bad Batman then switched sides after the trailer, and people keep saying the next MCU movie will suck, then flip over when it comes out. The whiners and complainers are always loudest. And the showing times for the movie were packed and sold out today

[Seafoam]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

But I thought I heard somewhere that Green Lantern had a cameo too.

Spoiler:

It wasn't confirmed or anything but I've heard that the person who delivered the nuke late in the movie was Hal Jordan.

[FlareKnight]

I think it was a 'good' movie. Not a great movie, not a "oh my god!!!" movie, but a good one. I agree make up your own mind, but feel free for your own mind to like or dislike the movie.

Overall it was good. They had a good Batman, Wonderwoman was pretty good from what we saw of her, Eisenberg's Luthor......sucked horribly. The action was really good I thought. Overall the build up was pretty solid and a lot of things made sense. Some things didn't feel necessary honestly.

It's a mixed bag. Kind of what I expected since DC is trying to rush to catch up to Marvel and get a Justice League movie out ASAP. On that front it certainly gets the job done. I don't think it's horrible, but I don't think it will be the best Superhero movie of the year. Honestly I think Deadpool is better overall.

Spoiler:

What the heck was that Luthor supposed to be? What was that? This was like mixing up Jim Carrey's Riddler with Depp's Mad Hatter....that was just bad. I'm sorry, it's a good movie but Lex sucked. He made no sense. He hates gods, he hates aliens, but he's all giddy about having "rung the bell" for aliens to come to earth....why? He doesn't even seem interested in the fact that he 'killed Superman'.

Also think some plot threads weren't needed. Why build up animosity with Superman towards Batman? In the end he only fought him because Luthor held his mother hostage. So....all that build up was pretty pointless. He would have fought him even without the whole "Clark really doesn't like Batman and wants to write a story about it" angle. And Batman was already bothered by Superman's existence. I wasn't that bugged by the using of the disabled worker angle though. It was more Superman's side that seemed unnecessary. Also think you could have tossed out the Africa/middle east (I forget honestly) segment. You don't need extra effort to set up Superman, people remember Metropolis. It's fine.

Again the action was great, the fight while short was good. It was what I thought we would get. Batman and Superman are on two different levels. If it's even ground then Superman will stomp Batman because he's Superman. If Batman uses kryptonite then he's going to stomp because he's freaking Batman. So it was going to be one-sided showdowns most of the time. It was a fun fight though, I enjoyed it.

While they kind of dropped the dilemma later on in the movie, I did enjoy taking up that aftermath from MoS.The world's reaction will be mixed. There will be people like that disabled guy who are blindly hateful because of their losses.

Doomsday....yeah I still hate that trailer for spoiling it. He wasn't as bad as I thought once he 'got a second form'. Not sure now was the time for him, but I didn't hate him.

Batman killing people...honestly I prefer the setup for Batman where he has that line he refuses to cross. I can respect his mindset of what that would make him if he went around killing people. I can live with this interpretation, but it did distract me a little bit.

"Killing" Superman.....why? It's too early for this. The impact with the audience can't be established yet, he's had 2 movies. The world just had the whole freak out about the bombing of that hearing, they are very mixed on Superman. Killing him while everyone is undecided seems like a bad move. Plus it just feels so fake. How is the audience supposed to care about that? We know he'll be there for a Justice League movie soon. Why even pretend? Just have the three heroes triumphant, feeling good and starting to establish the Justice League. No point in this fake Superman death and he'll just be back for the next one.

Again, I think it's a good movie. Just one with some flaws. 7/10.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Spoiler:

Why even pretend? Just have the three heroes triumphant, feeling good and starting to establish the Justice League. No point in this fake Superman death and he'll just be back for the next one.

Spoiler:

I can't be too sure about this since I don't follow the comics, but I'm pretty sure Doomsday does kill Superman in the comics. So to avoid some of the backlash from fans and to pay tribute to the source material, perhaps that's why they made him "die" (because we know he didn't actually "die" for good).

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by sayde

Spoiler:

I can't be too sure about this since I don't follow the comics, but I'm pretty sure Doomsday does kill Superman in the comics. So to avoid some of the backlash from fans and to pay tribute to the source material, perhaps that's why they made him "die" (because we know he didn't actually "die" for good).

Spoiler for Ending related stuff:

Sure, I'm familiar with that. Saw animated version of that a few years ago. I just didn't think it was the time for that. Just bring Doomsday back or something later and do that. This felt too early. Wait until Justice League 2 (after that) or something. The world is hugely attached to Superman. He's been a great hero for such a long time and then boom, he's dead.

This just didn't feel the time to honor that comic storyline. Especially since they can't really kill him before Justice League. I don't know, it just felt annoying. Everyone weeping over Superman/Clark and yet I'm thinking "I know he isn't dead or staying dead. This is not the time to milk the death of Superman emotionally."

But just my personal feelings.

[Seafoam]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Spoiler for Ending related stuff:

Sure, I'm familiar with that. Saw animated version of that a few years ago. I just didn't think it was the time for that. Just bring Doomsday back or something later and do that. This felt too early. Wait until Justice League 2 (after that) or something. The world is hugely attached to Superman. He's been a great hero for such a long time and then boom, he's dead.

This just didn't feel the time to honor that comic storyline. Especially since they can't really kill him before Justice League. I don't know, it just felt annoying. Everyone weeping over Superman/Clark and yet I'm thinking "I know he isn't dead or staying dead. This is not the time to milk the death of Superman emotionally."

But just my personal feelings.

Spoiler:

It is early to kill Superman, but at least we get a more interesting Justice League creation now. Batman is gonna have a hell of a hard time making it without Superman, and this will likely play a big role in the first movie. This again all goes with how this movie should've just been split into at least two, oh well though, what's done is done.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Going Seafoam

Spoiler:

It is early to kill Superman, but at least we get a more interesting Justice League creation now. Batman is gonna have a hell of a hard time making it without Superman, and this will likely play a big role in the first movie. This again all goes with how this movie should've just been split into at least two, oh well though, what's done is done.

Spoiler:

True enough, what's done is done. It will make things interesting and tricky. Batman will have to step up and organize this group. He'd probably much prefer just having Superman go and talk to all these people and bring them into the team. Now he's got to do it. Well him and Wonder Woman.

Agree that splitting it probably would have been for the best. Just have BvS be a movie. Have the Death of Superman and Doomsday be MoS 2 and still have that before Justice League (which you could just push back a bit).

But oh well. No changing it now.

[MrTerrorist]

Spoiler for Just saw the movie.:

It was a good movie.
Love Affleck's performance as Batman.
Eisenberg as Luthor felt weird.
And then there's the cameo for The Justice League.
Now to wait for Suicide Squad.

[LoweGear]

Spoiler for Impressions:

You know, when I watched Man of Steel I definitely had this feeling that this version of Superman was not the Superman I wanted. Paraphrasing my words back then, "This is a SUPER man, but he is not SUPERMAN". And unfortunately that very same feeling comes across the same here: when Batman, who in this version has no aversion to gunning down and branding his enemies, seems more HEROIC than the supposed Paragon of all that is good and righteous, it was the moment that I felt that as far as Superman goes, this movie wasn't very good at it. Hell, Bruce Wayne's actions in Metropolis at the start of the movie during the fight vs. Zod had some of the most heroic moments of the entire film, and none of them involved Superman. And the few actions where Superman was being heroic is always portrayed against a backdrop of questioning whether it's right to do so, which rather dulls the supposed achievements.

This particular article got it right: this isn't the "Superman" we need.

As for the movie itself, it felt rather... disjointed, as the editing from one scene to another felt abrupt and unusual. Yes it was spectacular when it was - that final fight was awesome - but at the end it's really more apparent now that this is DC trying to create its own cinematic universe by having Wonder Woman and all of the other metahumans in there, that didn't even contribute to the movie's own plot in a meaningful way. Yes, Marvel's own movies have been getting more and more interconnected, but even then each movie at least tries to stand up on its own so they can be seen even if you haven't seen the others. The introduction of Wonder Woman and the other people here just felt like DC crying out "hey, we have an expanded universe too! Look at them!".

Everything about what's wrong with Lex Luthor has been said, so I won't repeat that here.

Finally, Bruce's dreams are very, very wierd and campy in a way so strange that I would've literally ROFL'd had I not been in a cinema. The post-apocalyptic dream especially - once the fighting began and then the insect men started to appear I had to hold back laughing. What the hell were they thinking?

As with Man of Steel, Superman vs Batman was all spectacle, and while they do make a point about Superman, I think trying to deconstruct him in particular was the worse choice in trying to do so. If I want Superman being SUPERMAN and not being SUPER man, I'll watch Superman Returns.

The movie is a good popcorn movie all told - I managed to watch it without popcorn or drinks, which was saying something - but I just disagree with what was actually presented.

[com_gwp]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Spoiler for Ending related stuff:

Sure, I'm familiar with that. Saw animated version of that a few years ago. I just didn't think it was the time for that. Just bring Doomsday back or something later and do that. This felt too early. Wait until Justice League 2 (after that) or something. The world is hugely attached to Superman. He's been a great hero for such a long time and then boom, he's dead.

This just didn't feel the time to honor that comic storyline. Especially since they can't really kill him before Justice League. I don't know, it just felt annoying. Everyone weeping over Superman/Clark and yet I'm thinking "I know he isn't dead or staying dead. This is not the time to milk the death of Superman emotionally."

But just my personal feelings.

Spoiler for yup:

Completely agreed. They didn't earn Supes's death with this movie or MoS. There's zero emotional payoff because of the poorly developed character arc, and we all know he's coming back for Justice League anyway.

You might almost think Synder and Goyer had something smart to say about our society's twisted habit to make modern martyrs, if the rest of the movie wasn't so devoid of thought.

[james0246]

Well, if nothing else, I'm even more excited for a Wonder Woman film...

I honestly do not know what to think of this film. I know I didn't like it (it was needlessly erratic, hideously edited, and a morally convoluted film), but I also didn't necessarily dislike it (there are moments of genuine spectacle). Mostly I was bored. As entertainment goes, I do feel the film was a failure - Outside of Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman and the final battle sequence, the movie was by and large a loud mess with little to no emotion. Though Affleck gave a decent performance his Batman was a strange unnecessary sociopathic joke of himself (I was reminded more of Batman from the Flashpoint storyline than any other variation of the character); Eisenberg was thoroughly miscast and his Lex Luthor was a weird uninteresting character; and Superman's entire story was just a needless retread of his storyline from Man Of Steel (I still think Cavill is the right choice for the character, I just don't think the creators give him anything to do).

(It doesn't help that the pivotal Batman v Superman fight made no sense and could have been resolved simply by Supes putting his hands behind his head, assuming a non-threatening stance and simply asking, even begging, for help. In other words, the supposed tension surrounding the encounter could have been resolved in under a minute.)

But, damn was Gal Gadot a lot of fun. And the final fight had some absolutely amazing visuals. Amy Adams was also decent (and she proves, once again, to be the smartest person in the DC film universe), and the special effects were often jaw dropping.

In the end, the film just kind of exists. It's not bad enough to hate (though there are moments to hate), but it is not good enough to actively like (though there are moments to like). It's just kind of there, taking up space. 65/100.

[Akito Kinomoto]

There is one action sequence that never made sense to me here, or in the trailer...

Spoiler:

The Batwing flies next to the building where Martha is captured and Bruce busts through the window...hooow did nobody on the floor above hear that?

[Helius]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

There is one action sequence that never made sense to me here, or in the trailer...

Spoiler:

The Batwing flies next to the building where Martha is captured and Bruce busts through the window...hooow did nobody on the floor above hear that?

They did.

Spoiler for Spoilers:

That's why they had their guns trained on the door, but they didn't know Batman would burst through the ceiling/floor instead! Some of them were so disoriented from those little bombs they were even shooting at the floor below through the hole, not realising Batman was already right on top of them lol.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Spoiler for Thoughts on the movie.:

I didn't mind the movie. But it was definitely a different take on things. Probably darker than it needed to be, and quite destructive, but Jack Snyder, so its expected. Lex was a bit too manic for what I had pictured of Lex Luthor. Wonder Woman/Gal Gadot was surprisingly good, she was shown to be a badass and not someone that needed to be rescued. Hell in the final fight, aside from the final 'kill' I'd say she was being more effective than the boys in handling the Doomsday. Speaking of killing, holy shit... Batman, had to have put at least 50 mooks in the ground (directly not collateral) in this, what about his no killing rule. I can see how it kinda fits, he's a "good man gone cruel" as Alfred said (Jeremy Irons seemed an odd cast for Alfred to me) and after what happened in Metropolis and how he watched his friends/employees get killed he lost a lot of his... compassion or something, but still it was an odd thing to see.

It seems like Lex knows about Darkseid, considering what he was ranting about at the end of the movie. The cameos weren't too bad, but they were kinda shoehorned in it seemed to me. But its all to set up the Justice League movie.

But in the end not a terrible movie, just a different one to what I would have expected. I can see why people would hate it though.

[Kyero Fox]

[B214]

Well i suppose its quite accurate since BvS was technically a Man of Steel sequel, a Batman film & the Justice League prelude.