(L) Cross game

[golthin]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I really liked episode 23. Aoba deserves to be able to play real baseball in a real game, and frankly I hope she takes up the offer of that coach to play on the national team, as it is obvious he thinks she's got the potential to play at the national level, and we all know she does.

the problem is that Aoba's pitching is beyond women's baseball. She will not feel like she accomplished anything by playing Women's baseball.

[Pellissier]

I dare say Aoba is actually no match for women's baseball. They played vs. the national champion, filled with national players + the national coach's , and from the 0-4 without Aoba they scored a 4-1 when Aoba was pitching? She gave a home run (distract?), but that aside with her the defensive play was faultless. She psychologically destroyed the opponents' pitcher by always anticipating her moves. It wasn't just pitching, she actual did everything, batting advices, tactics, pitching's pattern. She looked like a maths major who had to do some 2+2.

The anime implies she refused to play with that Satomi team again, by showing two flashbacks in Aoba's mind: 1) Waka's prediction about Kou who could become the best national pitcher if he gets serious. ---> first reason: Kou . 2) Satomi's captain and her speech about teamwork and friendship ---> second reason: as it is Aoba is perfectly fine at Seishuu, she has her friends and companions there, and that still outweighs the fact she can't play official matches.

She did her best because that's her spirit, and she never wants to lose. But.. if you ask me, she did seem a lot more spirited and motivated at the end of the episode, where she was pitching at her team mates. Because she had a goal, showing them "dangerous for whom?" it is. Also the dialogue between Nakanishi and Akaishi: "didn't you say they were improving?" "Yep, it's just that Tsukishima is improving even faster".

Conveniently, they had the national coach inviting her to next selections which will be next march. Since the year has just begun, they should be in april/may, so far far away. In any case, she showed no emotions when invited. That world just seems ... too small for her.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Pellissier

The anime implies she refused to play with that Satomi team again, by showing two flashbacks in Aoba's mind: 1) Waka's prediction about Kou who could become the best national pitcher if he gets serious. ---> first reason: Kou .

This is a good answer for the people that think this original episode is deviating from the manga.
It is actually an attempt to clear more of the things that the manga is so vague about.

[SagaraSouske]

The reason Aoba gave that home run was because of the catcher. She was following the catcher's signs and the No 4 batter saw the pattern and used it against Aoba. After the home run, Aoba is in control of dictating the pitch instead of the catcher. We saw the result then. The coach was right that the point was big. If Aoba was pitching the way she wanted without following the catcher, she wouldn't have gave that home run and it would have been a tie. She is way beyond women's national level. She can pitch for a team that goes to Koshien fine even if Koh is better then her in speed.

[BetoJR]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the crux of the problem, right there: Aoba is just beyond the level of women's baseball. For her, it's not worthy of concern, as demonstrated here. As such, I don't see any egregious mistakes on the part of the anime staff, for bringing us this nice side story.

Now, next week we go back to the "meat" of things, eh?

[Free]

Ouka isn't the national team. The 4th batter, who is in the national team managed to screw Aoba up a couple of times. Satomi got those 4 runs because Sawa's a hot head, and I don't recall her being in the national team.

[Pellissier]

Originally Posted by Free

Ouka isn't the national team.

Of course not, never said they were but:

- They won last year's Women's Championship
- The coach is the coach of the women's national team
- Several players are in the national team.

Doesn't this make them the best a college women's team can offer? Yet they were about to lose because of a single opponent.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

The reason Aoba gave that home run was because of the catcher. She was following the catcher's signs and the No 4 batter saw the pattern and used it against Aoba. After the home run, Aoba is in control of dictating the pitch instead of the catcher.

True, I didn't remember at first because Aoba didn't change the pattern straight after the home run, but when her subsequent pitch was also caught by a different batter, only at that point she asked to switch the pattern's control. Certainly it was the catcher's fault.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

She is way beyond women's national level. She can pitch for a team that goes to Koshien fine even if Koh is better then her in speed.

I'd say that at the moment Kou is better than Aoba just in speed, because he's a male, and perhaps in stamina for the same reason.
Other than that, Aoba is better than him: she can do sliders, curves and any kind of effected balls, whereas Kou is still learning (from her! , and he also learnt from her the whole pitching position and motion). Also, she can read situations, opponents and adopt countermeasures accordingly, she's a great tactician while Kou until now didn't show to have the same knowledge of the game.
After all, Aoba is a real baseball pro, having played it seriously since when she was a kid, while Kou started trying really hard just recently.

I really liked the part in the preview

Spoiler for episode 24 preview:

where Aoba says: "Neither me nor Waka-chan will forgive you if you play half heartedly".

Those are those kind of things she would never have told him a few months before. Because she never had expectations from him to begin with.

[chinaboat]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Cross Game is old-fashioned - simple, direct storytelling with a simple, direct visual style. It's a glorious relic -as Adachi himself is, I suppose. Anime has changed - it's got to have moe, BL or some serious shounen action or else it's not going to make a deep imprint with the viewing public. That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

I'm afraid that's correct, a lot of the series done in that style this season (Taishou Yakyuu Musume and Kanamemo for example) aren't really attracting any viewers.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the crux of the problem, right there: Aoba is just beyond the level of women's baseball. For her, it's not worthy of concern, as demonstrated here. As such, I don't see any egregious mistakes on the part of the anime staff, for bringing us this nice side story.

Now, next week we go back to the "meat" of things, eh?

"Beyond the level of women's baseball"!!! Hell, she should be managing in a major league team's farm system. I've really liked everything of Adachi's that I've seen but this is getting perilously close to

Spoiler for length:

a Disney channel series about a teenage girl who's a golden glove fielder with a dominating arm who's also happens to be a pitcher with an overwhelming fastball and wicked slider and who hits for both power and average; probably be called "A League Of Her Own" or something.

This thing about "fillers", meaning a episode with no manga counterpart, is somewhat confusing. People use the term like they're a bad thing but I went back and watched ep22, a "filler" episode, I thought it was quite entertaining; expanded some points without repeating, moved everything forward and nicely set up ep23; what's wrong with that?

(I would, also, appreciate it if people who've read the manga would cut out the "oooh, wait'll you see what happens next" or the "<singsong> I know what's gonna happen and you don't, nyaa, nyaa, nyaa" or the "it's not regurgitated manga so it's not really (fill in the series)" stuff. - Thanks)

[jpwong]

Originally Posted by chinaboat

This thing about "fillers", meaning a episode with no manga counterpart, is somewhat confusing. People use the term like they're a bad thing but I went back and watched ep22, a "filler" episode, I thought it was quite entertaining; expanded some points without repeating, moved everything forward and nicely set up ep23; what's wrong with that?

It's probably just how the word has evolved over the last few years. I think it's gained more of a negative connotation due to some of the larger series putting in dozens of episodes one after another of filler material that really didn't do much for the show. It certainly seems to have gained a lot of negative attitude when naruto went into a whole year of "filler".

I don't think this little interlude was bad at all, if anything, they'll probably find some way to interweave this into the plot later on. They've shown that Midori isn't just a one episode character, so it seems to hint broadly that they will incorporate this into later episodes somehow.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by chinaboat

"Beyond the level of women's baseball"!!! Hell, she should be managing in a major league team's farm system. I've really liked everything of Adachi's that I've seen but this is getting perilously close to

Spoiler for length:

a Disney channel series about a teenage girl who's a golden glove fielder with a dominating arm who's also happens to be a pitcher with an overwhelming fastball and wicked slider and who hits for both power and average; probably be called "A League Of Her Own" or something.

The problem is that this is exactly the issue. Sure, I personally find it extremely sexist but I can kinda see the point - it adds more drama.

[ThinkTank]

Originally Posted by chinaboat

I'm afraid that's correct, a lot of the series done in that style this season (Taishou Yakyuu Musume and Kanamemo for example) aren't really attracting any viewers.

I think it more has to do with people aren't interested in middle school girl issues, or the way baseball/life was almost 100 years ago.


Its been a while since I read the part on crossgame but I certainly didn't notice the filler. That was the same way with first naruto filler arc. Both were done excellent and served their purpose to support the original material.

[MeoTwister5]

Actually when I think about it, I wouldn't call 22-23 filler because it gave a lot of development for Aoba.

[BetoJR]

Well, if you consider a "filler" to be anything that wasn't on the original work, then, yes, these last two episodes were "filler". Some people might dislike them simply for that, even. Which is a waste, IMHO, since the people responsible for this anime are really doing a fantastic job.

I mean, really, they even made me care for the opposing team's pitcher, with all her fits...

[MeoTwister5]

My definition of Filler is simply stuff that's "there" just to have something "there." It doesn't move the plot along, doesn't present any developments, doesn't reveal anything or doesn't develop the main characters. Which is why I don't consider these 2 episodes as filler.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

My definition of Filler is simply stuff that's "there" just to have something "there." It doesn't move the plot along, doesn't present any developments, doesn't reveal anything or doesn't develop the main characters. Which is why I don't consider these 2 episodes as filler.

that is another meaning for the term, but when the anime is based in a previous work, the meaning about an episode that was not in the original work prevails. In the case of episode 23, your term doesn't qualify because this episode actually moved the plot. So far neither of the so called "fillers" have been there just to have somthing there. I would call these episodes as "Anime original" and not fillers.

[CWW]

Actually, I didn't notice much plot progression at all, except perhaps reaffirming Aoba that Kou has the potential to be a great pitcher like Waka prophetized. In the end of the episode, Aoba was back to lecturing Kou who's still trying to perfect his slider. Ultimately, the main plot is going to end with Kou reaching Koshien and while Aoba will have a contribution, these two episodes were both centered around Aoba and her struggles and triumphs as a female baseball player.

[joeboygo]

Originally Posted by golthin

that is another meaning for the term, but when the anime is based in a previous work, the meaning about an episode that was not in the original work prevails. In the case of episode 23, your term doesn't qualify because this episode actually moved the plot. So far neither of the so called "fillers" have been there just to have somthing there. I would call these episodes as "Anime original" and not fillers.

Filler, anime original, whatever you call em - as far as this story is concerned I don't want to encourage the anime people to make any more. I was a little anxious about watching ep. 23, and I'm relieved that it did no damage. By now it should be clear where my worries were coming from. For several weeks, the anime was doing mini-profiles of female little league players at the end of each show, ostensibly in an en effort to promote baseball among young girls. Because of this, I had been afraid that the anime would change the story to build up the public service message that women's baseball was worth getting involved in, by making the Satomi v. Ouka match more of a challenge for Aoba's skills. But as pellissier's post made clear, anything less than total dominance by Aoba would have raised questions about why she would stick with the men's game. In the end, the anime chose to stay consistent with the manga by emphasizing that women's baseball could offer no worthy challenge to Aoba, and that skill-wise she belonged among the men. But in doing so the anime totally undermined its public service message by reinforcing the sexist notion that women's baseball is intrinsically inferior to the men's game. What are all those little girls who had been watching the show supposed to think now?

Sure, eps 22-23 successfully provided harmless backstory in the end. But everytime the anime people do a filler/anime original, they run the very real risk of screwing things up. I'm not sure the incremental enjoyment we get from such episodes is worth that risk.

P.S. On the semantic debate about filler, technically, an anime-only episode written by Adachi himself would also be called filler, but I seriously doubt anybody would regard such material any less than the canon. For me, the issue isn't what it is or isn't part of, it's all about who wrote it.

P.P.S. In this one case, I wouldn't call a faithful adaptation of the manga "regurgitation." That would be a gross disservice to the "non-original" portions of this anime, which I feel have been excellent, even after all this.

[Pellissier]

Originally Posted by CWW

Actually, I didn't notice much plot progression at all [cut] these two episodes were both centered around Aoba and her struggles and triumphs as a female baseball player.

I think the core of these 2 episodes has clearly been the fact that, in the women's league, she could actually play. Remember Aoba in episode 22, when invited at Satomi but just as observer? "At least I'm allowed to stay in the bench", something that in the men's league she won't be able to do, in official matches.
Kou, who can read through her like an open book, already understood this as shown at the end of the episode. Like I said in a previous post, Aoba at the moment is happy to be at Seishuu, because there's Kou, and because of her friends and teammates. This is still more important for her than the fact she won't be able to play. As time will fly though, it's possible she might have to face some hardships.

At the same time, we saw how high Aoba's level is if compared to girls her age. Until now, we've always seen her playing with/against boys, I think the anime here made pretty clear why.

All in all, I find it to be some pretty pertinent (and useful) character development.

[BetoJR]

I, personally, have no problem with these added tidbits, as they tastefully expand on the original works. As long as they keep doing that, I'm happy. Maybe I'm not too much of a purist, I don't know...

[Willen]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

Filler, anime original, whatever you call em - as far as this story is concerned I don't want to encourage the anime people to make any more. I was a little anxious about watching ep. 23, and I'm relieved that it did no damage. By now it should be clear where my worries were coming from. For several weeks, the anime was doing mini-profiles of female little league players at the end of each show, ostensibly in an en effort to promote baseball among young girls. Because of this, I had been afraid that the anime would change the story to build up the public service message that women's baseball was worth getting involved in, by making the Satomi v. Ouka match more of a challenge for Aoba's skills. But as pellissier's post made clear, anything less than total dominance by Aoba would have raised questions about why she would stick with the men's game. In the end, the anime chose to stay consistent with the manga by emphasizing that women's baseball could offer no worthy challenge to Aoba, and that skill-wise she belonged among the men. But in doing so the anime totally undermined its public service message by reinforcing the sexist notion that women's baseball is intrinsically inferior to the men's game. What are all those little girls who had been watching the show supposed to think now?

I never thought that the episodes were showing that Aoba is far above other girls in baseball and women's baseball "offering no worthy challenge" to her.

I've never read the manga so I don't know where Aoba's future lies or what her true motivations are. But what I got out of these past few episodes and all the previous ones featuring Midori was that Aoba has reasons for being on Seishu's baseball team other than wanting to play with the boys. Hell, almost all of the boys that she pitches against have a hard time hitting her pitches. Maybe high school boy's baseball offers no challenge to her too?

When I watched episodes 22 and 23 I got the feeling that Aoba did want to play with the girls. She agreed to sit on the bench even though she had absolutely no guarantee that she would even play. Heck, when their center fielder got injured she could have not said a thing and let Satomi forfeit the game. After all, Satomi's captain said that she didn't want a win if it meant sacrificing teamwork. After her play in center field, she looked like she was having fun. Take a look at Aoba's reaction when they announced that Satomi was switching players at pitcher and center. When they put Aoba on the mound Satomi didn't all of a sudden gain the lead because of her. In fact, none of the runs they scored were due to Aoba hitting a home run. While Satomi's batting improved due to her advice, her RBIs were still a result of the other girls doing their part by getting on base. At least on the batting side, women's baseball is challenging to her. And at the end of the game, she was clearly enjoying the camaraderie.

I rewatched the part in episode 23 where Aoba remembers Wakaba's comments about Kou -- "If he's serious, becoming Japan's best pitcher won't be a dream." and then recalls what Matsuyama, Satomi's captain said to her when they were evaluating her pitching -- "But I want to treasure the team we have right now. The teammates I will laugh and cry with, throughout what will be my last year here." I think this is really what the anime team wanted to get across with these episodes -- that Aoba wants to make Wakaba's dream come true, even at the expense of having her own dreams come true. And the fact that Seishu is Aoba's (and Kou's) team and even if she can't play in official games she's still part of that team and can help them win in other ways.