US Elections 2012 Part II: The Conventions, Debates and Election results

[GDB]

Originally Posted by monsta666

For the last 300 years there has been a unprecedented rise in the level of technology and human progress in society. The assumption that is deeply instilled in most societies is that technological advances will occur at a similar rate as in the past. Also another embedded assumption in this narrative is the believe that technology is a purely good force and it will solve all problems and if a problem exists innovation and technology will solve it. And finally the other assumption made in this is that advancing technology is synonymous with greater human progress.

These assumptions are hardly ever tested on any real scientific basis yet people place an enormous degree of faith it is true, to the point that is almost a religion. Now I am not saying this belief is wrong rather I am saying these underlying assumption portrayed by the mainstream must be closely examined because without close examination and scrutiny what we have here is not far different from a religion.

Of they aren't tested on any real scientific basis. Your arguments are incredibly subjective. First, you have to define an advance. Is it merely making what we have more powerful? More efficient without actually improving performance? Bigger (re: visual media, see 80" (and growing) TVs)? Smaller (see, iPod nano)? Cheaper? Some combination of the above? Others not listed? Any of the above?

You'd then have to define "human progress". I'm not going to get into the various ways that could be interpreted.

I also don't think anyone would consider technology a "purely good force". In fact, many consider it quite the tool for evil. I'd dare say most people would acknowledge how easily it is to use technology for evil, considering how well known hacking and identity theft are. As far as solving problems, it has historically shown that, over time, technology solves problems or assists in solving problems more easily or more quickly. It can also create problems, but there's no denying it has advanced the likes of medicine and long-distance travel, among others.

You've still failed to show how it's like a religion at all. Because it isn't a magical elixir that's already solved everything, it's somehow along the same lines as unsubstantiated translations of translations of interpretations of literature and scriptures written by man that's thousands of years old?

However the reason I still say it is an act of faith is you have personally not studied the source material yourself. Often you have taken a secondary source (be it through textbooks or other materials from some expert) and assumed it is true.

...And? Are you honestly saying that I'd need to recreate every theory and principle just to begin working on anything new?

However there are many theories (even in the hard sciences) were our knowledge is incomplete yet often we still have to make choice. When information is incomplete then some faith has to be placed on what we think is right. This fact is true regardless of whether you are an expert or layman.

Just because it's incomplete doesn't mean it's the same as religion.

Off course no one considers a social science in the same vein as physics, chemistry or biology. Yet economics plays a big role in our life, and because it plays a big role we must confront our economic realities and place faith in various theories of economics. You cannot tell me that people do not place strong believes in the market economy, socialism or any other economic paradigm.

This has nothing to do with science. Just because you go on a tangent doesn't mean it's relevant to the case you're trying to make.

Another example is the rejection of evolution in biology while maintaining a believe in the social science of capitalism.

These two things have absolutely nothing in common. What point does it have at all?

The most I can gather is you think anything that isn't 100% complete is equal to any other field that isn't 100% complete. Or that you're taking the use of the word "faith" far too liberally and applying it to anything that isn't 100% complete. And somehow, and maybe I'm misinterpreting this, you've managed to imply that if anyone, anywhere, is ignorant of a fact regarding something, it cannot be 100% true.

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by Vexx

A annoying yet disturbing poll by the Economist that might be enlightening to our overseas forumites (or annoying and disturbing as well). It provides a rather blunt picture of the cultural divide within the US . Almost completely separated realities...

http://today.yougov.com/news/2012/09...about-religio/

Well... actually I am somewhat surprised that the GOP is still considered a political party (and not some sort of new age church).

I mean, I have no doubt the Democrats are as lobby-rotten to the core as it can get, with only some politicians to like. Yet, in contrast to the GOP, you really want to vote for them just to deny the GOP fools any chance to turn the USA into a sorta Apartheid state, where rich and poor people need to be strictly seperated, because the conditions imposed, should the ideas of the GOP be realized, do not allow for a peaceful coexistence - and at that destabilizing the world by projecting their ideas on a global scale. I am convinced however, that the US-american people are on average sane and that the GOP therefore has no chance to win the election. And even if they won it, they could not succeed with most of their plans (their masters won't allow them to cause too much havok).

What I am more concerned about actually (and that applies for Germany and most western democracies as well) is, that regardless who the majority votes for, the so called "representative" always represents a minority of infuential voters, which happen to be mostly the same type of people - no matter who you vote for.

[james0246]

The current political woes remind me of a Yeats line from one of his more famous poems: "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by monsta666

Although this may not be the case in the example you highlighted I do think a case can be made that science or more specific the belief in technology and progress follows a similar psychological dynamic to that of religion. The belief in progress is deeply instilled in society and much of the underlying assumptions based around this are often built on nothing but acts of faith.

Sorry, that's like an instant fail that shows you don't understand the scientific method. It may be the case that *laypeople* take science on "faith" but that's because they know underneath it all *someone* has verified and tested every single piece of it. Just as someone designed and verified the car they drive and the thousands of pieces that make it work. That claim can not be made for religion.

They are two fundamentally different forms of thinking.

[Urzu 7]

So with the leaked Romney video about "victims", it shows he just truly doesn't believe he'd be a leader for all Americans if he were president. He only thinks those who qualify as Americans are basically Christians who vote for him, or the wealthy who back him (he doesn't care what religion they are, if they even have one). The thing is, you'll find many GOP supporters who won't care about Romney not considering democrats as Americans. Worse yet, you'll find so many of them agreeing with such a bullshit idea and they'll have all the more support for Romney and the GOP platform.

And Romney was being truly divisive. I hear people say Obama is so divisive and I just don't see it (the anti-Obama crowd says a lot of things that aren't true, so...). I remember reading comments in the comments section of the Huffington Post and seeing pro-GOP people say it is the democrats and their supporters that are really dividing the country and that isn't true. It is mainly coming from the right. Must of the people on the left who are adding to the rift are being driven by people on the right from their divisiveness. They work as a catalyst, for the most part. For one thing, I've heard plenty of people say liberals and democrats aren't truly Americans, but I've personally never seen a democrat or liberal say that about GOP supporters...

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

For one thing, I've heard plenty of people say liberals and democrats aren't truly Americans, but I've personally never seen a democrat or liberal say that about GOP supporters...

Because thoses think than being a true American is being like them, missing the point than someone with a different background, on a different environement will have high chance to be different.

[Urzu 7]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

Because thoses think than being a true American is being like them, missing the point than someone with a different background, on a different environement will have high chance to be different.

There are definitely those that want to take full control of the steering wheel and just make their America. I want an America for all American citizens. Many people do. Some people just want America for only who they consider to be Americans, and they exclude a lot of people. Right now, they sure can't do that, but I'm worried about America years down the road and these extreme types of people, well, doing very extreme things for the sake of power. We've already seen it with the GOP starting about 4 years ago. It is very concerning. The GOP has become extreme and we just don't know where that will go from here. Millions of Americans already have every right to be concerned. I mean, the GOP has already opted for the "crash America for 4 years to attempt making the democrats lose election 2012". It is crazy.

[Ithekro]

Remember that in olden times, faith in a religion was something that was taken from witnessed miracles and events described as facts. The farther and farther away from those days we go, the less witnesses, the less fact, and the less rational belief exists. All that is left is faith in something that may or may not have happened. Recall that the Catholic way to sainthood involves the witnessing of two miracles performed by or for the person to become a saint.

A witnessed miracle.

And while science has more proofs and theories than any religion. To someone that don't know how it works, but just believes that it does...that is faith. That goes for sciences that are actually not true, but people have faith in them anyway.

One can have faith is real science just as much as they have in false science (Flat Earth Society, or faith that Man has never been to the Moon because they believe science will not allow us to get their). Or faith in science that is not proven yet. Just theories like the recent one on Faster than Light drives. It might work, it might not. Some have faith in the idea and others do not.

Faith is not strictly religious.

[Kyuu]

Well, here's the truth on that 47% figure, noting the people who don't pay income taxes:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/09...om-red-states/

Most of 'em are Southerners. Surprised? I'm not. So, the irony: the very people who will vote Romney, are the ones being insulted by him.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

Well, here's the truth on that 47% figure, noting the people who don't pay income taxes:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/09...om-red-states/

Most of 'em are Southerners. Surprised? I'm not. So, the irony: the very people who will vote Romney, are the ones being insulted by him.

And the very people voting for Obama are actually the ones paying for the welfare for the people who will vote Romney.

Tho, I guess NM is the exception to the rule (and maybe FL, which has a slight Dem lean.)

[Mentar]

Don't get me started on the US being a "Christian" nation. They're not, particularly not those who are touting it most aggressively. They're "Christianists" in the worst meaning of the word (which has been violated badly enough already).

As a practicing German catholic, it is deeply unsettling to see the messianic aggressiveness which permeats the American political scene. If Jesus were to live in the US nowadays, preaching love and peace (instead of eye for an eye), an particularly to love thy neighbor like yourself (NO WELFARE FOR YOU, BLOODY SOCIALIST), he'd be spat at and kicked out.

Phariseans of the worst kind. It's a shame.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Don't get me started on the US being a "Christian" nation. They're not, particularly not those who are touting it most aggressively. They're "Christianists" in the worst meaning of the word (which has been violated badly enough already).

As a practicing German catholic, it is deeply unsettling to see the messianic aggressiveness which permeats the American political scene. If Jesus were to live in the US nowadays, preaching love and peace (instead of eye for an eye), an particularly to love thy neighbor like yourself (NO WELFARE FOR YOU, BLOODY SOCIALIST), he'd be spat at and kicked out.

Phariseans of the worst kind. It's a shame.

A frequently used term is Dominionist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism

There are many ties to the "Christian Patriot" movement as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Patriot_movement
that runs through the dark side of some of this.

[Ithekro]

Most seem rather Old Testiment in style, which in some respect is Jewish, not Christian. Not sure about the Mormons since they (in some resepcts like the Muslims) have another Book on top of the Old and New Testiments.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Most seem rather Old Testiment in style, which in some respect is Jewish, not Christian. Not sure about the Mormons since they (in some resepcts like the Muslims) have another Book on top of the Old and New Testiments.

Even as skeptical as I am of Abrahamic belief systems, these people (US "religious" extremists) don't even have a grip on their own source material. Heck they can't even read the Founding Father's documents, they're just making belief's up almost whole cloth out of holy book soundbites and the ravings of their leaders.

[Ithekro]

If one reads the letters from the Civil War, it would seem like they are right in assuming this is a Christian Nation. Though both sides in the conflict believed God was on their side.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Remember that in olden times, faith in a religion was something that was taken from witnessed miracles and events described as facts. The farther and farther away from those days we go, the less witnesses, the less fact, and the less rational belief exists. All that is left is faith in something that may or may not have happened. Recall that the Catholic way to sainthood involves the witnessing of two miracles performed by or for the person to become a saint.

A witnessed miracle.

And while science has more proofs and theories than any religion. To someone that don't know how it works, but just believes that it does...that is faith. That goes for sciences that are actually not true, but people have faith in them anyway.

One can have faith is real science just as much as they have in false science (Flat Earth Society, or faith that Man has never been to the Moon because they believe science will not allow us to get their). Or faith in science that is not proven yet. Just theories like the recent one on Faster than Light drives. It might work, it might not. Some have faith in the idea and others do not.

Faith is not strictly religious.

If someone tells me the Real Madrid isn't doing too good, I can take it on faith because:
- I don't actually give a damn.
- I could look it up if I wanted to.

If someone tells me some team on Alpha Centauri isn't doing too good, well, not only I can't look it up, I can't even be sure there are people playing football there. Why the hell would I believe it?

And religious people ask, demand that we take important decisions based on their unverifiable claims.

So, no, it bloody well isn't the same.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

One can have faith is real science just as much as they have in false science (Flat Earth Society, or faith that Man has never been to the Moon because they believe science will not allow us to get their). Or faith in science that is not proven yet. Just theories like the recent one on Faster than Light drives. It might work, it might not. Some have faith in the idea and others do not .

Do you really want to put the Flat Earth Society or thoses than deny than we went to the moon on something like false science. Their ''belive'' are proven wrong by facts. At least for the religion, nobody managed yet to prove than God fo not exist, so the possibility of ''something'', depending of what would you considere as a god, is still possibility, somehow better ( or at least more realistic) than the ''dream'' of thoses Flat Earth Society's lunatic.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

And the very people voting for Obama are actually the ones paying for the welfare for the people who will vote Romney.

Tho, I guess NM is the exception to the rule (and maybe FL, which has a slight Dem lean.)

The world tends to be most ironic when it comes to these things, heh.

[willx]

Originally Posted by james0246

The current political woes remind me of a Yeats line from one of his more famous poems: "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."

Also now known as the Dunning-Kruger Effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

[Roger Rambo]

Frankly this flabbergasts me a bit.

It's frankly amazing at how MUCH better of a job Ann Romney is doing at trying to defend her Husband for that 47% fundraiser comment. Stressing that he wants to help all Americans, rather than trying to defend him calling half the country that victimized sponges (including every single one of his republican supporters who don't pay income tax).