[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Similarly, why would Kyrie or Rosa or whoever call Battler on the phone and switch places with him in his original proposed solution? There's no puzzle reason to want to do it (Battler's supposed to vanish, not just transpose with another person), and if they were going to warn him about something... well they have nothing to really warn him about if they don't know Erika's going to kill everyone, and if Erika is going to kill everyone... they're already gonna be dead.

But with the criminally underdeveloped board narratives in End and Dawn it's impossible to even guess at what they were supposed to be like after their interruption. One presumes Erika never did any such sealing in the "original" Dawn, but how can we be sure?

[RandomAvatarFan]

I'm still with the theory that forgeries even include the Meta. Ange reacts to the Dlanor and Gaap skirmish in EP6, doesn't she? Featherine/Hachijou just tells her that there is an answer.

I just finished watching anime Banquet, and... EVA never confirms *anyones* death in red, except Nanjo's. She just goes on to confirm the location of the survivors. Beato did confirm 1st Twilight and 2nd twilight, but twilights 4-8 were never confirmed. I was kind of dissapointed, because Battler could have came up with a Natsuhi Culprit Theory just with that.

[AuraTwilight]

I'm still with the theory that forgeries even include the Meta. Ange reacts to the Dlanor and Gaap skirmish in EP6, doesn't she? Featherine/Hachijou just tells her that there is an answer.

Only Meta-Ange comments on it. Hachijou and 1998-Ange never comment on it.

I just finished watching anime Banquet, and... EVA never confirms *anyones* death in red, except Nanjo's.

Then the anime fucks up, because EVA confirms EVERYONE'S death at once. That's how she traps Battler and forces Beatrice's habd at the end.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

I'm still with the theory that forgeries even include the Meta. Ange reacts to the Dlanor and Gaap skirmish in EP6, doesn't she? Featherine/Hachijou just tells her that there is an answer.

There's no reason to believe that the meta is part of the Forgeries in my mind. I think the "Reader Theory" angle accounts for it better. Basically, there are two forgeries called End and Dawn, but we didn't get to read most of them. Instead, we read part of End up to about the Second Twilight and Dawn right up to the point where Erika discovers the letter outside the guesthouse. And we may or may not have gotten unfiltered versions of those narratives even so (honestly, I would suspect all the episodes make small alterations to the Forgeries as they were written in-universe).

I think it's possible to believe in an orthodox version of Dawn. Just remove all the meta-commentary and it basically works like it's presented:

• Erika shows up and makes an annoyance of herself.
• The four mothers, Maria, and Battler are "killed" in closed rooms.
• Erika begins to investigate, first by separating the survivors into rooms at the guesthouse.
• Erika discovers a letter informing her that Battler's body has disappeared.

The Forgery would then probably continue from there. Or perhaps it doesn't, and the draft of Dawn never gets that far before Touya and Ikuko start debating and discussing it, argue the "Logic Error" as a problem with the narrative, and shelve it. Or perhaps it was just to prove a point.

The point is a meta-narrative isn't a necessary component of the board narrative itself, even in "interrupted" narratives like ep5-6. Now, when you look at Requiem and Twilight, that might change somewhat. However, we know from ep6 that works called End and Dawn exist in some fashion, even if just in "Hachijou Tohya"'s collection of works (i.e. it's a Forgery the Hachijous were working on but never finished if it wasn't publicly released).

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Similarly, why would Kyrie or Rosa or whoever call Battler on the phone and switch places with him in his original proposed solution? There's no puzzle reason to want to do it (Battler's supposed to vanish, not just transpose with another person), and if they were going to warn him about something... well they have nothing to really warn him about if they don't know Erika's going to kill everyone, and if Erika is going to kill everyone... they're already gonna be dead.

But with the criminally underdeveloped board narratives in End and Dawn it's impossible to even guess at what they were supposed to be like after their interruption. One presumes Erika never did any such sealing in the "original" Dawn, but how can we be sure?

Well, theoretically we can assume that the next 'magic' was for the corpses to switch places so Kyrie would have gone in Battler's place, Battler in... let's say Rosa's, Rosa in Maria's, Maria's in Eva's, Eva in Natsuhi's and Natsuhi in Kyrie's.

However as you say with the little plot we're told about Ep 6 there's no way to know if there was a planned reason for Kyrie to switch places with Battler apart a meta one.

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

I'm still with the theory that forgeries even include the Meta. Ange reacts to the Dlanor and Gaap skirmish in EP6, doesn't she? Featherine/Hachijou just tells her that there is an answer.

I just finished watching anime Banquet, and... EVA never confirms *anyones* death in red, except Nanjo's. She just goes on to confirm the location of the survivors. Beato did confirm 1st Twilight and 2nd twilight, but twilights 4-8 were never confirmed. I was kind of dissapointed, because Battler could have came up with a Natsuhi Culprit Theory just with that.

I need to check this one but wasn't MetaAnge who reacted to it?
Though in Ep 5&6 there's so much back and forth from Meta sometimes I get confused...

In Ep 8 manga version is said that Dawn was a tale in which 'nobody was at fault' (and that's Dawn the tale he placed in Beato's grave in Ep 7) so it seems strange there were deaths in it, unless the whole thing means 'nobody of the people we love is at fault but it's okay for Erika to be the culprit as we don't care about her...'

[GabrieliosP]

Then it's probable that in Dawn the "faking deaths" game continued, Erika didn't kill anyone (because no meta reason to do so), and then they all laughed at their joke until the bomb blew up everyone.

Taking Renall's theory that the Episodes have alterations from the in-universe forgeries, then it all makes sense.

[Drifloon]

Ange DOES react to meta-scenes in EP6, though, and I mean the Ange talking to Hachijo with Amakusa, not the one talking to Featherine. For example, she comments on the 'chick Beatrice', and also the love trial which definitely has meta elements.

[battle22]

Guys, I can't remember the answer to this , can you help?
In EP6 , That letter. Who placed it? It wasn't Battler because the seal was intact If I remember correctly and everyone other than Battler should be dead(1st twilight "Victims")...Was it Shkannon?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by battle22

Guys, I can't remember the answer to this , can you help?
In EP6 , That letter. Who placed it? It wasn't Battler because the seal was intact If I remember correctly and everyone other than Battler should be dead(1st twilight "Victims")...Was it Shkannon?

Battler's intention appears to have been that he placed the letter. However, in the Logic Error reconstruction that isn't possible because Battler can't leave the room until Erika enters it, which is after she finds the letter.

Since the only other person who leaves is Kanon, I guess it has to have been Kanon. Honestly some part of me has always wondered if that wasn't a Logic Error unto itself.

[battle22]

Thanks for answering Renall . It probably had to been either Shannon or Kanon...

Honestly some part of me has always wondered if that wasn't a Logic Error unto itself.

I always thought Battler was just trolling with Erika hard... Because, Well You probably know it so I don't need to say it but , in EP8 Battler Or Beato said that nothing can happen on the gameboard without GM knowing about it... As for Reason for Battler trolling Erika.... Well Maybe he just wanted Beato to become herself again.. I just can't see any other explanation unless Ryu screwed up, Which I doubt...

[Drifloon]

To be fair, the meta-world's mechanics have never, ever been at all consistent between episodes. I've never really liked how people jump on that one inconsistency as evidence for Genius Battler theory.

Though I've talked about this before and I know most people here are pretty convinced of that theory, I don't think I'll ever really buy it. Battler just messing up seems much more in-character considering his portrayal up until that point, as far as I'm concerned.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Battler's intention appears to have been that he placed the letter. However, in the Logic Error reconstruction that isn't possible because Battler can't leave the room until Erika enters it, which is after she finds the letter.

Since the only other person who leaves is Kanon, I guess it has to have been Kanon. Honestly some part of me has always wondered if that wasn't a Logic Error unto itself.

Couldn't it have been placed before Erika sealed the rooms? There was a whole group of people "guarding Kanon" who could have done it while she was busy elsewhere. All they had to do was slip out a window the way Shannon did later and then climb back in.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Couldn't it have been placed before Erika sealed the rooms? There was a whole group of people "guarding Kanon" who could have done it while she was busy elsewhere. All they had to do was slip out a window the way Shannon did later and then climb back in.

Potentially. I suppose the broader question is who was supposed to have that letter in the first place, and why? If we assume everybody is in on it, I suppose anyone can hand it off to anyone else, but what's the chain of custody between whoever prepared that letter and whoever placed it?

Again that's trying to find logic in the Dawn board narrative but I think we can find some logic.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Quote:
I just finished watching anime Banquet, and... EVA never confirms *anyones* death in red, except Nanjo's.
Then the anime fucks up, because EVA confirms EVERYONE'S death at once. That's how she traps Battler and forces Beatrice's habd at the end.

I remember that: the inescapable web of truth. All I was saying was how strange it was for the anime to just cut that out. Of course Battler had examined all the deaths except Nanjo's, and "Bea" had already confirmed 1st and 2nd twilight.

In Ep 8 manga version is said that Dawn was a tale in which 'nobody was at fault' (and that's Dawn the tale he placed in Beato's grave in Ep 7) so it seems strange there were deaths in it, unless the whole thing means 'nobody of the people we love is at fault but it's okay for Erika to be the culprit as we don't care about her...'

You see, when I read EP7, I thought that Dawn was the tale BATTLER buried Beato with, but with EP8, I started thinking that Dawn and that book are different.

If I keep with the "Episodes as presented = Forgeries", I would doubt it because this book is supposed to represent The One Truth, which I don't believe Dawn does.

If you continue with the "Episodes = Work in Progress + Readers" I can see it happening then. Dawn is incomplete, and after finding the Logic Error, BATTLER was able to complete it, and truly dedicate it. Even still, does this still represent the One Truth?

If anything, a tale where no one was at fault would be EP8. The "magic" ending ends with: "I dedicate this tale to Beatrice." And it's not Beatrice Snicket, either.

[Renall]

If Dawn is indeed the last work, one presumes Requiem and Twilight are not Forgeries at all. Is that suggested anywhere?

EDIT: Bernkastel refers to the story in ep7 as Requiem of the Golden Witch within ep7 itself. Other than its own title, Twilight is never referred to by anyone. Although Battler refers to a "final tale" within Twilight, actually...

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

If Dawn is indeed the last work, one presumes Requiem and Twilight are not Forgeries at all. Is that suggested anywhere?

I think this comes down to the question that comes up every time, "What actually is a Forgery". If we go by what was given in EP1 already and continued in the same fashion up to the TIPs for EP8 then it could be everything that was written after the incident.
If we consider Legend and Turn the original message bottles, Banquet and Alliance works written by Hachijo Toya and Dawn an unfinished manuscript that was still in the working stage, then End could be a theory by "those who placed Furudo Erika on the island".
In End we have a theory that Battler clearly does not agree with, which could also show Toya going over the "End theory" (in whatever case it reached him) and he simply did not agree with the proposed Natsuhi culprit theory, because something in the back of his mind (Battler) told him it is wrong.

Theories like End and Requiem, from my point of view, can just be competing works of literature, manuscripts by other people or even just theories on the internet. Twilight could be something like an afterword which was considered by Toya...or it is really just Ange's theory, which would explain why it is possible for her to struggle so much with it.

That's why I always have a slight problem with the translation of 偽書 as Forgeries, because while it is a correct translation, a Gisho can also be an apocryphal book...so something that is not considered as "canonical" by a higher instance.

[AuraTwilight]

That's not what he's asking, Haguruma. He's asking whether those two episodes exist as manuscripts in Ange's world whatsoever, not whether or not they're 'legitimate' manuscripts.

[jjblue1]

I'm confused... where was it said that the book for Beato, the one that was laid in her coffin upon her chest had to represent the one truth or that it's the last work? The book of the single truth is Eva's diary (which is also the book on the chapel's altar) and the last tale Battler wrote is, supposedly, the one for Ange, not for Beato.


Interesting enough Requiem and Twilight both contain 1 what if tales crossing with another tale that seems more on the style of our normal tales and that have a solution.

Requiem has, as what if, Lion's tale (which supposedly ends with everyone's death) and that is seriously different from the others as there's Lion, Kinzo is still alive and there's no Battler and this tale crosses over with the ones in which Rudolf and Kyrie are culprits.

Twilight has, as what if, a tale in which Ange went on Rokkenjima and, supposedly, nothing happened and that crosses over with a tale in which Battler and his family are culprits.

Both tales have also references to Dawn (the beginning for Requiem and I'll say the scene with Battler and Beato drowining seems to be a sequel of Dawn as Battler tries to bring Beato away from Rokkenjima as he promised her in Dawn).

Interesting enough people from Twilight are unaware of the existence of Requiem as Lion and Will's story come as a surprise for Battler and Beato so in a fashion Twilight and Requiem are a cross over of two different words.

There's also some confusion about who's the author of Twilight as Battler is supposedly the author of part of it, but Bern is also the author of the game and Featherine also claims to have written something for Ange...

So, at least in the Meta, Twilight is a book containing more than 1 story, written by more than 1 author.

And honestly I've no idea if a Twilight exist in Prime and what it contains. For all we know it could contain Bern's tale instead than Ange's tale and be a forgery written by someone who's not Tohya.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That's not what he's asking, Haguruma. He's asking whether those two episodes exist as manuscripts in Ange's world whatsoever, not whether or not they're 'legitimate' manuscripts.

Yeah, and from that, what are they anyhow, and how many are there?

If you look at Requiem there are potentially at least four possible stories:

• Will's investigation of Lion's world.
• The Kinzo submarine story (may or may not be part of the Will story).
• Yasu/Clair backstory segment with the stage motifs etc.
• Kyrie's Super Fun Shoot-Em-Up Time.

Similar multiple narratives exist in Twilight. Now, multiple narratives have always been in the stories on the whole, but they've always maintained a sort of "layered" feel, while ep7 and ep8 feel more like jjblue said, an "anthology." Although the episodes themselves weave the stories together in a somewhat coherent fashion, I'm not entirely sure they'd stand on their own as works in the universe where Forgeries apparently do not contain all of these things, or at least where we can't tell. Even if everything in Turn was as we read it, Requiem is still very much a different sort of story in structure and style.

So what are things like End, the Lion universe, the Battler's family culprit theories, Ange Happytime World? Fan works? Is Bern's game exactly that, a "game" Forgery not intended to stand up as a literary work but more as a whodunnit puzzle?

Though the idea that at least some part of Twilight is written by (or at least read by) Ange seems very probable.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

So what are things like End, the Lion universe, the Battler's family culprit theories, Ange Happytime World? Fan works? Is Bern's game exactly that, a "game" Forgery not intended to stand up as a literary work but more as a whodunnit puzzle?

Though the idea that at least some part of Twilight is written by (or at least read by) Ange seems very probable.

That was one of the points I was aiming at, though maybe I cut it a little too short because I did not have much time.

I don't think that these "Forgeries" necessarily have to be complete literary works in the world of Umineko to function in the logic of the series. Sure, some of them were revealed to be more or less actual literary works in that world, but I am not quite sure that this has to be the same for all of them.

Requiem for me was always just a collection of theories and ideas from which something like a "meta-gameboard" was formed. Just like how this very board here could be transferred into a very erratic, chaotic gameboard. In the end Bern takes everything that she got her hands on and forms her very own theory from it and it is a perfectly valid one.

This also leads me again to the question of the Logic Error.
It wasn't mentioned until it was actually called into question, which means that games can actually progress while containing a logic error, they are just fatally flawed as theories on the Rokkenjima Incident and easy to attack. But on the other hand it also means that any game is valid, not based on how reasonable it is in relation to reality, but only on it being technically possible.