[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Interesting enough, the first 6 victims didn't have the cause of their death declared (we only know it wasn't suicide or a trap) and, although Shannon is in the same room in which George is lying death, Battler doesn't say a word about her, implying he doesn't check her life or death status.
In the manga she's even represented as lying on her stomach, so he couldn't see the 'wound' on her chest.

Also noteworthy is, how the statement "The above mentioned 15 people are dead" was uncolored in the novelization and the PS3 version of EP3, thus heavily hinting at the culprit being hidden there. It becomes obvious once one considers the culprit 'Beatrice' using the same narrative body as Shannon and Kanon.

Though this would make EP3 the most cruel game in the process as it would more than any other game imply that 'Beatrice' has actually lost her marbles and went on a killing spree.
The only thing that helps with this is the End Roll of EP1 already saying that none of the theories put out after the message bottle was found and the Witch Serial Murder craze started was actually correct.

[GuestSpeaker]

That said, there's no evidence I can think of that "Beatrice" actually exists in End or Dawn. So I guess it's only an issue in the first four games (or, at the absolute lower limit, Turn and Alliance), for which there is no exact person count given. Although the final battle of Alliance might cause problems with that, I don't know.

I think you don't have to count her for the same reason she never did, she was a witch, not a human. Her title as a piece is the first witch, hence she doesn't have to be in the 18 count.


I had a very elegant theory for the parlor scene in 5, involving how the game signposted with clues that the number of people had changed, but one of Lambda's reds (at least in the manga) crushed that theory to small and sad pieces.


I always thought the point in three was that Kyrie survived, even her TIP pointed out that a wound to what most people refer to as the stomach isn't immediately fatal (even in a thin person it's mostly fat, space and some gut). Though she only has gameboard motivations to play dead in front of Battler (or be conveniently unconscious) even seeing a stake in there means nothing

[GuestSpeaker]

Also note what comes with the American version of the Uminelo anime:

[Premium box with bonus item: A full-color, 28-page hardcover art book, which will provide a deeper understanding of the series with an in-depth story analysis, detailed character bios, and character sketches

[Renall]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

I think you don't have to count her for the same reason she never did, she was a witch, not a human. Her title as a piece is the first witch, hence she doesn't have to be in the 18 count.

I hardly see that as fair though. If George is a furry and his spirit animal is a panda, does that mean he can "kill" himself, assume his fursona, and evade person checks while snacking on delicious bamboo?

[lpf]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Battler saw them dead, which is as good as a confirmation as he's the detective.
So it's possible they killed Rosa and Maria and tried to kill/killed Hideyoshi in Ep 3 but they should have ended up being killed by the time Battler found them.

This riddle specifically needs to consider the possibility of misdiagnosed deaths, which raises an assumption that many investigators take for granted but which I would be interested in hearing opinions about: can Battler guarantee a character's death on Beatrice's gameboard?

My basis for doubting this ability of his is the happenings in Dawn. In this episode, a clear distinction is made between being the detective (which Battler is: Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE!) and declaring the detective's authority (which Battler never did). Being the detective only means the narration from his or her point of view can't deceive the reader by telling falsehoods. It doesn't mean the detective can't be deceived, by faked or misdiagnosed deaths, for instance.

'Van Dine's 2nd: No wilful tricks or deceptions may be played on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.'

(I am not using this rule as an authority and it doesn't fit Umineko as a whole at all, but I found the phrasing nicely fitting for this case.)

I realise that the gameboards in Chiru are filled with irregularities, and that the characters do not always tell the truth about the power they can use—not to mention Ryukishi07 is very whimsical with the rules (regarding the need to provide evidence when stating something in red which is brought up at convenient moments; the capacity to 'lock' the Red Truth; or even the Golden Truth). But do you have clues that would indicate Battler's autopsy being absolute?

Regarding Nanjo's murder, there is something I want to ask for: what is everyone's opinion on the money the survivors were sent after the events? I think solving this riddle first would help solving this one. 07151129 is related to both George (TIPS and time at which it appeared) and Nanjo (the money), and Nanjo is a probable accomplice for George's escape from the guest house. Among the pieces whose death wasn't confirmed, George sounds like a likely culprit. Furthermore, he was injured which could account for his later death.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Also noteworthy is, how the statement "The above mentioned 15 people are dead" was uncolored in the novelization and the PS3 version of EP3, thus heavily hinting at the culprit being hidden there. It becomes obvious once one considers the culprit 'Beatrice' using the same narrative body as Shannon and Kanon.

Though this would make EP3 the most cruel game in the process as it would more than any other game imply that 'Beatrice' has actually lost her marbles and went on a killing spree.
The only thing that helps with this is the End Roll of EP1 already saying that none of the theories put out after the message bottle was found and the Witch Serial Murder craze started was actually correct.

That or either it's true Eva never solved the epitaph but Yasu handed her the solution in exchange for her help.
After all in Ep 3 Eva seems to feel responsible for the deaths and yet, if she's not the same as Eva Beatrice, she killed no one and therefore she's not responsible for what had happened.
In short Beato is still following the epitaph as in the other games and, in fact, if you don't know Eva solved the epitaph (and pieces didn't know it) what she's doing is perfectly fine.

The dialogues between Eva and Eva Beatrice are pretty interesting if one thinks at them as dialogues between Eva and Yasu.

I wonder if, in any game, Beato planned to put the blame on someone.
In fact in Ep 4 she pushes the blame on Kinzo (which is possibly the best sacrifical lamb as he's dead) and in Ep 2 she pushes it on Kanon (and the servants by default).

Ep 1 is maybe the oddest because as soon as you suspect someone (Eva, the servants, Natsuhi) he dies...

[GuestSpeaker]

I hardly see that as fair though. If George is a furry and his spirit animal is a panda, does that mean he can "kill" himself, assume his fursona, and evade person checks while snacking on delicious bamboo?

I remember that people had trouble with this because of ep 3, but when did Beatrice actually act on her own after Shannon and Kanon were dead?


Plus if you were given adequate clues that his fursona was walking around and doing stuff and also that he was the body for that fursona, then you probably could. Though I didn't think you needed to for Umineko to work....

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

I remember that people had trouble with this because of ep 3, but when did Beatrice actually act on her own after Shannon and Kanon were dead?


Plus if you were given adequate clues that his fursona was walking around and doing stuff and also that he was the body for that fursona, then you probably could. Though I didn't think you needed to for Umineko to work....

Well, it was 'Beato' who killed Nanjo and she did it after Shannon and Kanon were dead.

[GuestSpeaker]

I thought it was a not quite dead person who then died?

Though I guess it was also hinted that Beato may have been playing fake Kanon at that point

[GuestSpeaker]

Also interestingly enough, the manga scanlation of Ep 2 says Shannon's given name is "Kiyo"

[GabrieliosP]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Also interestingly enough, the manga scanlation of Ep 2 says Shannon's given name is "Kiyo"

Excuse me? I believe this might have been a mistake on the scanlator's part, but can say give me the number of the chapter so I can check?

[battle22]

Excuse me? I believe this might have been a mistake on the scanlator's part, but can say give me the number of the chapter so I can check?

Translator also Had Kinzo call the child a grandson in Ep5 and Lion was a 'She' in Ep7. So that error is obviously from Wtdnd again.

[GabrieliosP]

Oh right, that translation group. "Lion is treated as a woman because I think he/she is one" is the biggest non-excuse I ever saw for a translator.

[theacefrehley]

No need to cry
EP7 was corrected to a v2 right after

Entitlement much...

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Also interestingly enough, the manga scanlation of Ep 2 says Shannon's given name is "Kiyo"

That was not me, but the hiragana for 'ki' (き) and 'sa' (さ) might be mistaken for each other if the quality of the raw scan is low (and the translator is not familiar with the VN)

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GabrieliosP

Oh right, that translation group. "Lion is treated as a woman because I think he/she is one" is the biggest non-excuse I ever saw for a translator.

I've heard worse and anyway they're doing all the work for free. I saw professional doing way worse and getting money for it. Plus, I suggest everyone to drop this topic as it's forbidden to talk about scanlations of licensed material on the forum and Umineko is now a licensed manga .

[GuestSpeaker]

Speaking of which, it took me a good while to realise that Yen Press won't sell you manga directly through their website, they should really put their "click here to buy" link in a more directly below the manga sort of position

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Shannon, like Jessica, likely wanted a boyfriend. Differently from her however she wished even more for a person who would love her and accept her due to her background. Technically it could very well be that she wanted more to be loved than to love. However, as soon as she finds the truth about her body she becomes 'furniture', something unable to be loved.

This makes even harder for her, someone who's deemed below by nearly everyone around her (Jessica and George excluded) to really believe in a happy ending, at the same time she doesn't really want to give up hope and yet she doesn't seem to trust things to have a chance to go fully well.

Honestly, I'm not sure she had the guts to leave with George if Battler hadn't come back so I think it's possible she would have accepted George's ring and then faked her suicide or something.

I mostly agree, but is Yasu really such a helpless figure? I mean, assuming she is the criminal, she was willing to take huge risks to accomplish something. What she did meant the end of her relationships with Battler, George, and Jessica in this world, and almost certainly the end of her normal life whether she planned suicide or not. If you're desperate to avoid responsibility or escape reality, there's got to be a million easier ways to end your life on the island.

Yasu makes Beatrice the "culprit" responsible for ruining her relationships with George and Jessica, but that can't represent what Yasu actually wants. Yasu must have cared deeply for all three of them, or this whole conflict doesn't seem to make any sense. And since Beatrice is her most treasured furniture, assigning her as the culprit apparently doesn't mean that Yasu is pushing responsibility for the situation onto another person or something like fate. After all, in the story, Beatrice knew this might happen since the beginning, just as Yasu must have.

[Drifloon]

Yasu makes Beatrice the "culprit" responsible for ruining her relationships with George and Jessica, but that can't represent what Yasu actually wants. Yasu must have cared deeply for all three of them, or this whole conflict doesn't seem to make any sense. And since Beatrice is her most treasured furniture, assigning her as the culprit apparently doesn't mean that Yasu is pushing responsibility for the situation onto another person or something like fate. After all, in the story, Beatrice knew this might happen since the beginning, just as Yasu must have.

Well, if you consider that Beatrice represents Yasu's love for Battler as Shannon and Kanon represent her love for George and Jessica, it kind of makes sense. Yasu wants to be with Battler more than anything else, the only reason that she started to fall in love with other people was because Battler had seemed to forget his promise. She had originally planned to put an end to those relationships if Battler ever came back (hence the foreseen 'day of rest' that both Shannon and Kanon were supposed to be looking forward to). But it turned out that she became much more attached than she expected which led to Shannon and Kanon having much more power against Beatrice in the fantasy narrative than she expected them to. So, if you look at the Beatrice character in this way, it kind of makes sense why she is portrayed as the one responsible for putting an end to the other two relationships. And also why she suddenly gains so much power on the day when Battler returns, having not regained her full power until then.

The only real problem is how that escalates into a mass murder, if that even actually happened.

[battle22]

No need to cry
EP7 was corrected to a v2 right after

Entitlement much...

Nobody is crying, Just pointed out few examples to say that it's highly possible the group made a error again.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Well, if you consider that Beatrice represents Yasu's love for Battler as Shannon and Kanon represent her love for George and Jessica, it kind of makes sense. Yasu wants to be with Battler more than anything else, the only reason that she started to fall in love with other people was because Battler had seemed to forget his promise. She had originally planned to put an end to those relationships if Battler ever came back (hence the foreseen 'day of rest' that both Shannon and Kanon were supposed to be looking forward to). But it turned out that she became much more attached than she expected which led to Shannon and Kanon having much more power against Beatrice in the fantasy narrative than she expected them to. So, if you look at the Beatrice character in this way, it kind of makes sense why she is portrayed as the one responsible for putting an end to the other two relationships. And also why she suddenly gains so much power on the day when Battler returns, having not regained her full power until then.

The only real problem is how that escalates into a mass murder, if that even actually happened.

Well, we see Beatrice looking really happy on 3 occasions.

1. When she first tries to tempt Shannon and Kanon into having love on their own.
2. Shortly after Kanon realizes how serious Jessica was about him.
3. Right after George unexpectedly tells Shannon about the ring.

So if anything, she's shown as being responsible for making Jessica and George love Yasu more, not for ending their relationships. Even when the crimes start, she offers to take them to the Golden Land, which would make their love eternal.

I'd say that Beatrice isn't made to look evil because she destroys love, but because she creates love that can't be supported.

Yasu, someone scarred, abandoned, and forced to wait for love for years, would likely be desperate for love despite any risks.
Yasu, someone scarred, abandoned, and forced to wait for love for years, could easily convince herself that any future relationship she got into would end much like her first one.
Yasu, someone scarred, abandoned, and forced to wait for love for years, would feel more guilty than anyone else if she unwittingly did to her friends what Battler did to her.