[manga] who is the strongest espada

[Farscape]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Tl;dr : Ulq has power and battle skills, but Stark's got just as much power and far superior deduction skills. So, Stark>Ulq, and that's my final answer. I won't debate whether Shichigo is stronger than the 4 captains all together, because I'm not Kubo, but they both had formidable opponents to deal with. It's just that Ulq let Ichigo grow stronger, where someone else with more insight would have killed him faster (see Grimmjow).

I was never debating who was stronger, i just thought it was a bald statement about Ulquiorra and that your reasoning and comparison to Starkk being so much superior was weak/incorrect.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Shunsui and Stark clashed swords many times, it's not like Stark just let himself get hit. He also countered Shunsui's taka oni diversion with the pink cape before falling for the second one with his captain's haori. He knew how Shunsui's skills worked before Shunsui explained them to him, he knew it all from a single hit. Shunsui battled a total of four captains, two of whom were vizards. Calling them "useless" is ridiculous. He took them on two at a time, but it's still a hard feat to accomplish. Shunsui has the experience of centuries on his back, and was against someone who was seeing the ability for the first time. It's only natural he'd win.

I don't care if it were 8 Ichigo's lvl 2's , he took them with ease as he didn't brake a sweat he just fired his guns and they were done with, he even gave them the option to run as they were jokes.

Next thing you know, you'll be stating that Aizen had a hard time/that he had to break a sweat taking care of 4 captains. They didn't, it's as simple as that, there is no battle credit that can be taken from that.

And i am not saying Stark should've won i am saying there was nothing to it, the shikai took 1 manga chapter 3 attacks, what a rip-off. Before Shinsui went Shikai, Stark dogdged a hell of an amount of attacks and now playing a game he is wide open like that? to be killed, what battle skills? they were flushed down the toilet at the end of the kids game.

Why not use one of his cero attacks from his gun when shouting saying the color but noo.. he doesn't even get the chance because he's done in two attacks.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Ulquiorra saw Yammy getting his hand sliced and thought that Ichigo would win the fight...just because Yammy is a total moron doesn't make others smarter than they actually are, it only makes Yammy look stupid.

It wasn't about Yammy, it was about him analyzing Ichigo.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

I never said that Ulquiorra is in the same league as Yammy, nor did I say he'd try to overpower the absorption, that's something you came up with on your own.

You didn't state that but you were kinda implying it by stating that Ulquirroa didn't have any battle skills but to just use projecttiles etc.. Therefore u suggested he would just be doing that over and over. And you agreed to it aswell. (when i posted about a stupid person attacking comment)

[Intranetusa]

Stark > Ulquirroa

This is a fact. Stark is #1 and Ulq is #4 for a reason.

In terms of analytical skills, Ulq was fighting idichigo...who has the IQ of a rock. Ulq also played around for half his fight and allowed Ichigo to get powerups.

If it was stark vs ichigo, the fight would've been finished in half a second with a million ceros that no way in hell ichigo could block. Stark wouldn't be dumb enough to toy around, letting his opponent get stronger and stronger.

And Shunshui vs Ulq, Shunshui would've butchered Ulq. Stark was fast and agile enough to last against Shunshui's deadliest shikai, but I doubt Ulq has the power or ability to even half as long as Stark did.

[Randumo24]

I still think #2 was the strongest espada.

[Farscape]

Originally Posted by Intranetusa

Stark > Ulquirroa

This is a fact. Stark is #1 and Ulq is #4 for a reason.

What are you talking about? What fact, the numbers aren't clear to anyone as we don't know how and when they were established after all Yammy is 0 and nobody knew about Ulquiorra's state 2 so what fact and this was obviously beside the point.

And like i said before, it ísn't about who is stronger

Originally Posted by Intranetusa

In terms of analytical skills, Ulq was fighting idichigo...who has the IQ of a rock. Ulq also played around for half his fight and allowed Ichigo to get powerups.

If it was stark vs ichigo, the fight would've been finished in half a second with a million ceros that no way in hell ichigo could block. Stark wouldn't be dumb enough to toy around, letting his opponent get stronger and stronger.

And Shunshui vs Ulq, Shunshui would've butchered Ulq. Stark was fast and agile enough to last against Shunshui's deadliest shikai, but I doubt Ulq has the power or ability to even half as long as Stark did.

It doesn't matter who he was fighting, it was about the type of fighter he is and the comparison to why Starkks so called analystic abilities and battle skill are so much superior when he didn't do that much more, even though i am also not debating whether Starkks battle skills and analytic sills are better. I am just having trouble with peoples agrumentation to why Ulq is supposedly so much weaker in those aspects(when he has shown that he can but is just very nihil/cocky), when there isn't convincing proof for it.

Thats a big speculative argument you are taking right here saying Stark wouldn't have let Ichigo do what he did when Ulq try to overkill Ichigo.. and Stark didn't even want to kill any of his opponents so where is this idea coming from? Stark isn't relentless.

I seriously don't know what manga chapter you people have been reading Starkk was fast and agile enough? if he was that why did he get butcherd in 2/3 attacks? He was fast and agile in the beginning when they were tasting eachother out but not when Shunshui used his Shikai, it ended in a matter of seconds.

I am not going to continue on this speculative path as to what Ulq would've done because thats just pointless.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Farscape

I seriously don't know what manga chapter you people have been reading Starkk was fast and agile enough? if he was that why did he get butcherd in 2/3 attacks? He was fast and agile in the beginning when they were tasting eachother out but not when Shunshui used his Shikai, it ended in a matter of seconds.

Shunsui seriously wounded Stark before challenging him to the game when he sneaked attacked him earlier with Kage Oni while he was distracted fighting Rose and Love.

As for winning in 2 blows after that, that's precisely Katen Kyoutsou's power--to end the fight in only a few attacks because the strength of your blow determined by how well you understand the game, not by your physical power. If winning Katen's games meant Shunsui had to be physically superior to the opponent, it would be mostly pointless to use it because he could simply outfight his enemy without putting himself at risk of the rules of the game which are also dangerous to himself.

[Farscape]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Shunsui seriously wounded Stark before challenging him to the game when he sneaked attacked him earlier with Kage Oni while he was distracted fighting Rose and Love.

As for winning in 2 blows after that, that's precisely Katen Kyoutsou's power--to end the fight in only a few attacks because the strength of your blow determined by how well you understand the game, not by your physical power. If winning Katen's games meant Shunsui had to be physically superior to the opponent, it would be mostly pointless to use it because he could simply outfight his enemy without putting himself at risk of the rules of the game which are also dangerous to himself.

I am aware of the game and its intentions. The power of his shikai is not to end the fight in a matter of seconds or attacks, that just depends on who he is fighting, it's a shikai for crying out loud. He only has an advantage because he knows the games and it's rules.

Stark was unable to counter or dodge a killing attack, thats my point, it got wrapped up just like that, nothing to it. If Stark got cut from the back he wouldn't have died, he got cut from the front wide open cutting his critical organs etc.

Like you stated before the game doesn't improve power or abilities, it mearly gives out rules that players need to follow.

Stark wasn't 'seriously' wounded, he was just wounded, like how Shunsui was wounded else he couldn't have suprised attacked Shunsui with such speed. Thats the point.

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by Farscape

I seriously don't know what manga chapter you people have been reading Starkk was fast and agile enough? if he was that why did he get butcherd in 2/3 attacks? He was fast and agile in the beginning when they were tasting eachother out but not when Shunshui used his Shikai, it ended in a matter of seconds.

I know it's a typo but....HAHAHAHAHAHA

I think the only indication of Stark's speed was when Aizen had him get Orihime after the Kenpachi vs. Nnoitora fight.

[Farscape]

Actually..... that wasn't a typo ^^

[Mr. DJ]

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ghey ;p

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Farscape

I am aware of the game and its intentions. The power of his shikai is not to end the fight in a matter of seconds or attacks, that just depends on who he is fighting, it's a shikai for crying out loud. He only has an advantage because he knows the games and it's rules.

Like you stated before the game doesn't improve power or abilities, it mearly gives out rules that players need to follow.

That's not the case, the damage of Shunsui's attacks magnified several times (at risk to himself), while his opponent's attack power essentially neutralized unless they figure out the rules. It takes the factor of strength out of the equation during the fight because damage inflicted based entirely on rules of the game.

In other words, no matter how strong/resistant the opponent normally is, they'll be heavily damaged if they take a single blow while Shunsui uses Iro Oni. That's incredibly broken ability

Stark wasn't 'seriously' wounded, he was just wounded, like how Shunsui was wounded else he couldn't have suprised attacked Shunsui with such speed. Thats the point.

Stark was wounded enough to affect his fighting. You can even see how he has a hand clutching his chest.

Shunsui proved why he's a brilliant fighter by defeating a Stark, but this hardly a case of him dominating his enemy in straight-up contest of strength and speed, he won because:

1) he waited until Stark lost the use of his guns ( his strongest and fastest weapon) by unleashing his wolves on Rose and Love

2) launched a sneak attack with kage oni to weaken him. Then, to be sporting, he explained Katen's powers and give Stark a "hint"by attacking him with a color he knew wouldn't cause much damage. (I'll give you this, Shunsui probably would've won even faster if he hadn't done that, though he didn't expect Stark to figure out so quickly). Finally, he ended it by calling out the color which would give him the strongest attack.

And of course, yes, Stark's fight far less impressive than Ulquiorra's. But Ulq matched against the main character, he's going to receive star treatment. Stark matched up against secondary characters and his fight (like Halibel and Barragan) was quickly wrapped up so that Aizen could make his debut into the fight.

[Randumo24]

^^Shunsui is also stronger than Ichigo^^

[Farscape]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

That's not the case, the damage of Shunsui's attacks magnified several times (at risk to himself), while his opponent's attack power essentially neutralized unless they figure out the rules. It takes the factor of strength out of the equation during the fight because damage inflicted based entirely on rules of the game.

It is? you are just stating that the higher risk factor you pick the more damage you create and i said power/abilities aren't improved by the game, they just need to follow the rules, therefore it's the same?

The first time Starkk attacked he had the highest risk if he had created just an opening like Shunsui did attacking him from the front Shunsui would be dead, wouldn't he? Those are the rules, his attack was Max(imized)

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

In other words, no matter how strong/resistant the opponent normally is, they'll be heavily damaged if they take a single blow while Shunsui uses Iro Oni. That's incredibly broken ability

Alright, i am inclined to agree now, it made me remeber how a shallow wound effected Stark/monolouge. But still its not necassary because it's also about ur battle/swordsmen and speed/dogde/counter kills. In the game those aspects were no where to be found but this has already been mentioned..

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Stark was wounded enough to affect his fighting. You can even see how he has a hand clutching his chest.

Shunsui proved why he's a brilliant fighter by defeating a Stark, but this hardly a case of him dominating his enemy in straight-up contest of strength and speed, he won because:

1) he waited until Stark lost the use of his guns ( his strongest and fastest weapon) by unleashing his wolves on Rose and Love

2) launched a sneak attack with kage oni to weaken him. Then, to be sporting, he explained Katen's powers and give Stark a "hint"by attacking him with a color he knew wouldn't cause much damage. (I'll give you this, Shunsui probably would've won even faster if he hadn't done that, though he didn't expect Stark to figure out so quickly). Finally, he ended it by calling out the color which would give him the strongest attack.

And of course, yes, Stark's fight far less impressive than Ulquiorra's. But Ulq matched against the main character, he's going to receive star treatment. Stark matched up against secondary characters and his fight (like Halibel and Barragan) was quickly wrapped up so that Aizen could make his debut into the fight.

Shunsui got blasted by a cero, those wonds weren't crucial. It was just a wrap up. And i am not sure if Stark lost his Guns did he? i thought he was just amazed by Shunsui's shikai and forgot he could use them.

[Randumo24]

Shunsui is one of the most underestimated characters in the series. If you count captains & former captains, he's probably the 4th strongest captain we know of.

[Intranetusa]

You guys are missing something here. Aizen knew everything.

Aizen probably did know that Ulq have a 2nd release.

[Farscape]

Originally Posted by Randumo24

Shunsui is one of the most underestimated characters in the series. If you count captains & former captains, he's probably the 4th strongest captain we know of.

No he isn't, there has always been spoken highly of him and that he is one of the top 4 strongest captains.

Originally Posted by Intranetusa

You guys are missing something here. Aizen knew everything.

Aizen probably did know that Ulq have a 2nd release.

Could be, Ulquiorra did state that Aizen never saw him in that form, not that he didn't know of it.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Farscape

The first time Starkk attacked he had the highest risk if he had created just an opening like Shunsui did attacking him from the front Shunsui would be dead, wouldn't he? Those are the rules, his attack was Max(imized)

Doesn't work that way. In Iro Oni, you have to attack the color that you call out or it doesn't work. When Shunsui called out grey he attack Stark's arm because it was grey. When Stark called out white he attacked Shunsui's back, because his white Captain's haroi draped across his back. So he created a deep wound, but it was in a non-vital area.

When Shunsui called out black he targeted Starks hollow hole in his chest, and so he created a wound that cut through Starks vital areas.

Shunsui got blasted by a cero, those wonds weren't crucial. It was just a wrap up. And i am not sure if Stark lost his Guns did he? i thought he was just amazed by Shunsui's shikai and forgot he could use them.

Haha, omg no. If Stark retarded enough to forget his main weapon he'd be the stupidest character in Bleach without doubt. He uses the reiatsu from his guns to create the pack of wolves that attack Love and Rose. The moment the pack is shown his guns are no longer in his hands and his holsters are empty. The strength of Stark's guns isn't so much the raw power of the cero shots but the speed in which he is able shoot off multiple shots. Without his guns, Stark was forced to fight wounded in a sword duel with Shunsui after Shunsui gave himself huge advantage with his shikai.

And yes, I'm going to say Stark's wounds were pretty serious compared to Shunsui's. Getting blasted with cero not the same thing as being run through the torso. For some example, when Utitake run through with WW's fist or Ichigo run through with Ulq's hand their wounds were critical and they were both knocked unconscious. While on the other hand characters have taken ceros several times at near point plank range and been relatively ok. In Bleach, attacks that penetrate usually do the most serious damage and Ulq mentioned that most espada lack the power of instant regeneration

But anyways. Stark's fight was rushed and his powers looked nerfed at the end because Kubo didn't do a particularly good job at conveying why Stark lost. But if you look at the fight closely, it's not a case of Stark suddenly becoming an idiot and forgeting he can dodge swords and shoot guns. Shunsui planned this victory brilliantly, but he took advantage of some key opportunities.

I'm not sure about Stark's power compared to Ulquiorra's in his 2nd form, it's possible Ulq was more powerful but you can't really judge by the fights. Ulq's fights were Ichigo's typical my-reiatsu-bigger-than-yours-tug o' war. Stark's fight was about Shusui setting up a trap that stacked the odds in his favor.

[Kafriel]

on the other hand characters have taken ceros several times at near point plank range and been relatively ok.

I always considered this a plot hole, even GJ had said that a point-blank cero leaves nothing but dust (not mentioning Rukia's de-atomizer from a menos because that was perhaps way too long ago). So, when Iba took a cero from Allon head-on, he should have died.

[Randumo24]

Originally Posted by Farscape

No he isn't, there has always been spoken highly of him and that he is one of the top 4 strongest captains.

When I say strongest, I mean overall, like to fight. I meant that people underestimate his intelligence because of the way he acts.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

When Shunsui called out black he targeted Starks hollow hole in his chest, and so he created a wound that cut through Starks vital areas.

Shunsui planned this victory brilliantly, but he took advantage of some key opportunities.

Ya Shunsui knew well enough how to take advantage of kubo's art... what with targeting a "hole" because it appeared to be "black" when holes are supposed to actually just be colorless empty space... like how kenpachi's sword went right through Noi's head and did nothing

though lookign back at that chapter... Shunsui cut start across his chest, but based on the rules of the game, shouldn't his attack have been stopped and been ineffective when the sword made contact with Stark's non-black body... Shunsui had to cut through the white to get to the black afterall

[Farscape]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Doesn't work that way. In Iro Oni, you have to attack the color that you call out or it doesn't work. When Shunsui called out grey he attack Stark's arm because it was grey. When Stark called out white he attacked Shunsui's back, because his white Captain's haroi draped across his back. So he created a deep wound, but it was in a non-vital area.

When Shunsui called out black he targeted Starks hollow hole in his chest, and so he created a wound that cut through Starks vital areas.

Hmm i see i thought the color just needed to be around like only on your body or on the opponents.. or that you could cut anywhere you want as long as the color is called and you are wearing it. But so to understand it correctly the color has to be hit on the opponents body else it will not work? If the color is not on the opponent it doesn't matter if u have the color like as a robe it will not effect him?

For example stark conistst only of red.. and Shunsui has nothing red not even a drop. He could still attack the red but it would be minimal right? And Stark wouldn;t be able to attack maximized with red right. he wouldn't be able to attack with red at all? Rofl that kinda sucks because both of them would only be able to land minimal attacks?

Originally Posted by Randumo24

When I say strongest, I mean overall, like to fight. I meant that people underestimate his intelligence because of the way he acts.

eh how? i seriously disagree and i think alot of people would too.. just because he acts the way he acts doesn't mean his intelligence is in question. He always came across as someone who knows what he is doing when its time.

He is a fairly calm fighter and most people never expected anything else but superiority/talent/uniqueness and intelligence as a fighter as he dealt with a lot of fighting sitaution failry easy and calm always knowing what approach to take, you can just tell with some fighters and he is most certainly one of them.