Character Discussion - Lelouch

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by eaglei3

I seriously hated his explanation of "those who are pulling the trigger must be prepared to be shot themselves." It is one thing knowing you are putting yourself at risk when you shoot. But to simply let yourself be shot is an entirely different thing. I think he tried using that phrase in a way that did not work for the anime's end personally.

I never liked this explanation because it implies that Lelouch was going to commit suicide, which is not a satisfactory ending. If the entire writing staff agreed to kill Lelouch off, then it's obvious that they didn't like Code Geass R2 at all. Otherwise, Lelouch's death could have been done quite differently.

To me, the last 13 episodes was simply preparing a loaded gun and pointing it at yourself to commit an act of suicide. Thus, the ending was a crap shot like the Death Note.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

If you read the page I just posted, it states that the ending was the planned one. No matter what happened between the end of the first seasons and Lelouch's death, Lelouch was going to die.

I had no doubt that Lelouch would die. However what went on in R2 was incomplete because it felt rushed after the reintroduction of the first 12 episodes of R2, aside from the China arc. There is so much speculation as to what might have been with Code Geass R2. Perhaps all of us should write to the creators of Code Geass to encourage them to do a manga on what their intended ideas for R2 was tp have been. This way, if the manga/novel does well, then Sunrise could do another Code Geass series that is based on the manga.

Originally Posted by Masterkeyes2

....alright you have a point there. And I agree anyway-Lelouch basically made the show what it was. Personally I wonder what Tanaguichi originally planned for Lelouch's story in R2 if this wasn't the original idea. At the very least it would be cool to see it in a manga-format or an abridge movie version.

I agree with you on this idea. However, you could send this suggestion to Tanaguichi at Sunrise. He does listen to his fans because without us, there wouldn't be a Code Geass R2 to begin with. I plan to write him a letter myself. I encourage everyone to do the same regarding the idea of his and Okouchi to personally work on a manga/novel on their "Planned" ideas for Code Geass R2, starting with Stage 26. A manga/ novel of Code Geass could provide greater indepth stories than what is allowed in the anime. In addition, the manga could restore the tone and fell of season one once again. It doesn't hurt to write to the producers of this series.

[Nogitsune]

I liked the ending.
I think it was beautiful, touching and very fitting - and nothing like the Death Note ending.
I also liked the prepared-to-be-shot quote. Of course soldiers live risky lives, but those Lelouch was talking to usually were corrupt idiots who certainly liked their lives very much.
Not to mention that Lelouch was still full of hate for Britannia at that time.

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I liked the ending.
I think it was beautiful, touching and very fitting - and nothing like the Death Note ending.
I also liked the prepared-to-be-shot quote. Of course soldiers live risky lives, but those Lelouch was talking to usually were corrupt idiots who certainly liked their lives very much.
Not to mention that Lelouch was still full of hate for Britannia at that time.

Lelouch hatred for Britannia stems from his hatred for his father, who seemed unconcerned about Marianne's death. Thus, the Demon King was created as part of Lelouch's persona. Even when Charles explained to Lelouch the reason why he had to treat him in an uncaring manner, Lelouch wanted to destroy his father's ambitions for abandoning him and Nunnally in Japan. I guess the invasion of Japan was also a smoke screen to make V.V. believe that Lelouch and Nunnally were dead. Charles told Lelouch he did all of those things to protect him because V.V. would have killed anyone associated with Marianne, which included her children. Why else would he had dragged out Nunnally from her bed and place Marianne's dead body on top of her as he ordered his men to fire at the windows, crippling her? If he have had his way, Lelouch was have been dead as well.

I still think that Lelouch's death was a cowardly act of indirect suicide because he could not face the consquences that he had to inflict in order to create a peaceful world. Everything about the ending, and the happily ever after for everyone, doesn't seem right with me because it would seem that Lelouch was dreaming of his vision of the world.

[Willowhugger]

Personally, I think that a lot of the original series is being retconned by the authors later on when it's originally open to interpretation. I think Lelouch's sacrifice is out of character and doesn't fit with what we know of him; moving as it may be.

I hope for a different ending from the manga.

[Rydrallen]

Personally I am in favour of Lelouch living on to oversee the peace that he had helped to create, nevertheless the ending is acceptable.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

Charles told Lelouch he did all of those things to protect him because V.V. would have killed anyone associated with Marianne, which included her children.

So that justifys his actions?
I don't think so.
And even though Lelouch can be a very understanding an forgiving person, he was clearly traumatized.
If he had just accepted his fathers reasons and embraced him, he really would have been a saint.
Not to mention that he didn't want a "yesterday" for the world. Had Charles and Marianne changed their minds... well, maybe things would have turned out differently.
He loved his mother, after all - that's why her betrayal hurt him so much.

I still think that Lelouch's death was a cowardly act of indirect suicide because he could not face the consquences that he had to inflict in order to create a peaceful world. Everything about the ending, and the happily ever after for everyone, doesn't seem right with me because it would seem that Lelouch was dreaming of his vision of the world.

I like to think that there is a possibility that Charles's code ruined that part of his perfect happy ending.
[And now please don't tell me that his death has been confirmed. I already know that. ;P]

Originally Posted by Willowhugger

I think Lelouch's sacrifice is out of character and doesn't fit with what we know of him; moving as it may be.

I think it was perfect for him, but that's just my opinion.

[eaglei3]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I think it was perfect for him, but that's just my opinion.

Perfect for him? I personally found it not to be perfect for him and rather hypocritical for this guy who tells everyone else to try their hardest to live, and yet let's let himself be killed.

[Pink-chan]

Originally Posted by eaglei3

Perfect for him? I personally found it not to be perfect for him and rather hypocritical for this guy who tells everyone else to try their hardest to live, and yet let's let himself be killed.

The result was an ultimate punishment both Lelouch and Suzaku wanted to atone both their sins. Lelouch wish for tomorrow with Nunnally whereas, Suzaku wish to pay for his sins through death. To release each other from their sins, Lelouch chose death while Suzaku ended up living.

[eaglei3]

Originally Posted by Pink-chan

The result was an ultimate punishment both Lelouch and Suzaku wanted to atone both their sins. Lelouch wish for tomorrow with Nunnally whereas, Suzaku wish to pay for his sins through death. To release each other from their sins, Lelouch chose death while Suzaku ended up living.

Yes, this I know as well. However, IMO Lelouch became a very weak person in the last 6 or so episodes. It takes a strong will to continue on fighting to live through the worst of times. He basically gave that up.


And to be honest, death IMO is not punishment for sins. Especially when we have an afterlife type world portrayed in the anime with the World of C where consciouses gather.

Edit: And I don't know why, but the more time that has passed since the ending of Geass, the more I've started to hate certain parts of it as my opinion has changed when I started to poke through what I considered poor writing and developments. I really enjoyed the ending at the time, but now that I have had more time to think on it and after seeing Okouchi interviews, it seems my opinion has changed some.

[Pink-chan]

Originally Posted by eaglei3

Yes, this I know as well. However, IMO Lelouch became a very weak person in the last 6 or so episodes. It takes a strong will to continue on fighting to live through the worst of times. He basically gave that up.


And to be honest, death IMO is not punishment for sins. Especially when we have an afterlife type world portrayed in the anime with the World of C where consciouses gather.

Lelouch who wishes to live, gave it all up to atone for his sin. I think it took a stronger resolve for him to choose death than if he choose to live which is his ultimate wish. To Lelouch, death is his punishment. I don't think he is weak but rather he is selfish. Lelouch had always been like this. He decided this for the sake of the others despite those may not be what they had wanted.

I'm quite satisfied with this ending. It is because of Lelouch's selfishness, I admire him. He is willing to sacrifice his own happiness for the sake of others' happiness and other than those close to him, no one would have known what Lelouch actually done for them.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Pink-chan

Lelouch who wishes to live, gave it all up to atone for his sin. I think it took a stronger resolve for him to choose death than if he choose to live which is his ultimate wish. To Lelouch, death is his punishment. I don't think he is weak but rather he is selfish. Lelouch had always been like this. He decided this for the sake of the others despite those may not be what they had wanted.

I'm quite satisfied with an ending. It is because of Lelouch's selfishness, I admire him. He is willing to sacrifice his own happiness for the sake of others' happiness and other than those close to him, no one would have known what Lelouch actually done for them.

*nods her head eagerly*
Agreed.

[eaglei3]

That atonement for his sin is something else I didn't care for as stated by Okouchi as it doesn't fit the scenes of the anime to me.

I can see where that possibly entered in later, but his initial wish was to just die while dragging his father to hell with him. This is what I mean by him becoming weak and just wanting to die. It was after he stopped his father when he realized his 'true self' in the World of C and figured that his death could atleast be used for something in the world.

It was at that point that death had already entered his mine IMO. Nunnally being alive was a curveball thrown at him during his Zero Requiem, but he couldn't really stop it by then. It was when Nunnally came back that the whole 'atonement/taking away sins' part came in. But him wanting death started before that.

[demon_god04]

To be honest, I am kinda split about the reasons behind his death. I can certainly see the poetry in how he died and what he died for but at the same time the "sin" thing just seems out of place to me. By acknowledging the things he has done as something wrong that needed to be atoned for by his death, it just seems to me that it would be also saying the good things he has done to be wrong. The whole point I thought about his character was that he walked a fine line between clearly defined concepts of right and wrong. What threw me off was that at the end he acknowledged Geass as a positive thing despite the pain and suffering that power has caused but yet it does not apply to himself as well? Despite the fact that he has caused tragedies with his powers, there were also positive changes that were brought about because of it, much like Geass.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

To be honest, I am kinda split about the reasons behind his death. I can certainly see the poetry in how he died and what he died for but at the same time the "sin" thing just seems out of place to me. By acknowledging the things he has done as something wrong that needed to be atoned for by his death, it just seems to me that it would be also saying the good things he has done to be wrong. The whole point I thought about his character was that he walked a fine line between clearly defined concepts of right and wrong. What threw me off was that at the end he acknowledged Geass as a positive thing despite the pain and suffering that power has caused but yet it does not apply to himself as well? Despite the fact that he has caused tragedies with his powers, there were also positive changes that were brought about because of it, much like Geass.

Hm... I agree with that, too.
I never saw his death as a redemption and that part of it annoyed me a little. But then I decided to ignore the statement, just like I ignore the whole "nope, there's not even a 0,00001% chance that he's still alive!" thing.
To me, it is only Lelouch who felt the need to redeem himself. It wasn't necessary or just or even an act of pure selflessness.
It was just Lelouch, and I love him for it.
Not that I didn't already love him before that, but... oh well.

[demon_god04]

As I said, I am split about the death on a whole. By itself if you disregard certain scenes it was certainly a powerful moment. But at the same time what lead to it seem to contradict his character and outlook.

[youngde]

I just don't see death as redemption in any way, shape or form. I don't see it particularly a punishment either except for those who have no desire to redeem themselves in life and will continue their crimes if allowed to live.

Sacrifice is one thing, but to sacrifice yourself when there was no particular need is just kinda stupid. Lelouch had all the resources in the world; it's not like faking his own death and changing his I.D. would have been that hard, particularly for someone as smart as him. He was doing this to create peace, but peace is fragile. After all he sacrificed, he had the responsibility to live and maintain that peace, not pawn it off on Suzaku, Nunally, Kallen, etc.

If it's true he died for his pride and some mixed-up sense of a need to punish himself, that just strikes me as B.S. "The only ones who should shoot are the ones that are prepared to be shot." That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean you step into the path of a bullet when you don't have to.

youngde, signing off.

[Nogitsune]

Hm, I still think it was a very fitting death for him. o.o
I mean, you can call Lelouch many things, but psychologically stable is certainly not one of them. Therefore, his end didn't seem OOC to me at all.
Quite the opposite, in fact.
But I'll disregard the whole redemption and "no, he can not be immortal, for he has sinned" thing.
I like to think that maybe - just maybe - his plan didn't work out the way he wanted it to and now he's stuck. Forever.
*cackles evilly*
Errr... don't get me wrong, I love him and all, but it's an amusing thought.

[youngde]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

But I'll disregard the whole redemption and "no, he can not be immortal, for he has sinned" thing.
I like to think that maybe - just maybe - his plan didn't work out the way he wanted it to and now he's stuck. Forever.
*cackles evilly*
Errr... don't get me wrong, I love him and all, but it's an amusing thought.

I don't get why people wouldn't think he could/should become immortal just because he sinned. C.C. didn't think immortality was all that great. Personally, I think having to eternally watch over the peace you sacrificed and sinned so much to make while outliving everyone whom you cared about to be a much more appropriate 'punishment' than dying. But maybe that's just me.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by youngde

I don't get why people wouldn't think he could/should become immortal just because he sinned. C.C. didn't think immortality was all that great. Personally, I think having to eternally watch over the peace you sacrificed and sinned so much to make while outliving everyone whom you cared about to be a much more appropriate 'punishment' than dying. But maybe that's just me.

I agree with that.
But it was officially stated that he had to die in order to redeem himself, if I understood that correctly.
And that's what irked me a little.

[NyxOne]

It was only fitting that he died.