The death or evolution of the sci-fi and mecha genres

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Bri

You're going to struggle to find more than a dozen new mecha series since Geass.

Geass? As in Code Geass? It had mecha in it, but I don't really think of it as a mecha show. When I think of mecha I think of series like Evangelion, Gundam, Macross (all of which bear mecha with the series name), and Eureka Seven. The mechs feature prominently in those series and are a major part of the storyline. In series like Code Geass mechs are like cars: they're there, they're used, but the series doesn't revolve around them.

That's in line with what was said previously about series becoming more character-driven. Not that earlier mecha series didn't have strong characters or character development, but it was about the mechs. The mechs were central to the storyline in most cases, or they were featured in such a manner that it was clear that society had dramatically changed because of them. You can't think about Evangelion without thinking of the Evangelions, or Eureka Seven without thinking about the Nirvash. But when I think of a series like Code Geass, I totally forgot that it even featured mechs. All I remembered were the characters, their conflicts, and special powers.

[gsilver]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Don’t make the same mistake like Guilty Crown, Eureka 7 AO, Aquarion EVOL, Gundam AGE, or Michael Bay

The problem there is that the people with money focus-group their ideas to death, and go with the elements that they think will sell.

Studios aren't interested in the best scripts. They're interested in $1.12 billion at the box office. Quality aside (36% on RottenTomatoes ), I think the studios are very happy with Transformers: Dark of the Moon

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I believe the problems above can be eliminated if they have a strong script with rich setting, well-written story and good characters. In short: don’t work on anything before you have a good script. Don’t make the same mistake like Guilty Crown, Eureka 7 AO, Aquarion EVOL, Gundam AGE, or Michael Bay. In case of Michael Bay, he ordered his artists to design the robots and began to shoot Bayformers 2 when the script is still being written by Rob Orci and Alex Kurtzman inside a hotel room. Yes, it's true .

Even when a very good sci-fi series come out, it just simply don't generate a lot of buzz. Heroic Age is a very good show. I think most people who watch it love it. And yet it generate less buzz than say....K-on. I love K-on but I think there are more effort put in on Heroic Age.

I think the anime merchandise has changed over the years. Back then the main stream is for kids buying saint seiya/ gundam models while only serious anime fans buy character figurines. Nowadays figurines consist of the majority of sales and figurines can sell well without mecha/sci-fi.

Is there any information to show how many Lancelot frames are sold vs how many C.C/Karen related merchandise are sold?

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

In series like Code Geass mechs are like cars: they're there, they're used, but the series doesn't revolve around them.

That's in line with what was said previously about series becoming more character-driven. Not that earlier mecha series didn't have strong characters or character development, but it was about the mechs. The mechs were central to the storyline in most cases, or they were featured in such a manner that it was clear that society had dramatically changed because of them. You can't think about Evangelion without thinking of the Evangelions, or Eureka Seven without thinking about the Nirvash. But when I think of a series like Code Geass, I totally forgot that it even featured mechs. All I remembered were the characters, their conflicts, and special powers.

In a way i agree with you that the mechs aren't the centre of the story and at the same time i disagree as the mechs in code geass were essential tools for warfare in the story. The outcome of those battles were important strategically.


As for more disagreements: Eureka 7 didn't entirely revolve around the Nirvash, but more about the relation between Eureka and Renton. The nirvash is not the first thing that pops up with me when i think of E7
Or the same for Macross Frontier, the love triangle, music were far more important than the mechas. I can't even remember the names of the mech's in macross Frontier

As for Evangelion, i didn't exactly watch it for the EVA's but for the psychological stuff

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by bhl88

Vanguard paid homage to mecha a bit....
Transformation and gattai included

References are simply references. They don't always reflect the popularity of a genre in a medium. American cartoons make lots of references to the horror genre and famous horror titles, but how many actual American horror cartoons have you seen that aren't just somewhat dark comedies in disguise?

Originally Posted by hyl

and at the same time i disagree as the mechs in code geass were essential tools for warfare in the story. The outcome of those battles were important strategically.

You could replace them with tanks or guns and nothing would change. Hell, the Code Geass manga did away with the mecha altogether.

Originally Posted by hyl

Or the same for Macross Frontier, the love triangle, music were far more important than the mechas. I can't even remember the names of the mech's in macross Frontier

Did you only watch Frontier or something?

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Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

The very title of the franchise, Macross, refers to a giant transforming robot/ship that the characters spend the majority of their screentime in.

Originally Posted by hyl

As for Evangelion, i didn't exactly watch it for the EVA's but for the psychological stuff

You didn't watch Evangelion for the Evas, but I don't think you can deny that they played an important role in the story, with their relationship with humans and angels, and how Shinji's intense emotions inside Eva caused actual physical consequences.

[Folenfant]

Ultimately my point is that mecha still looks lucrative and popular but whether anyone but the usual suspects try to make any is whats up in the air. Also for the record even though its beside the point Gundam Unicorn is not a remake and also a perrenial 100K+ per volume seller.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Geass? As in Code Geass? It had mecha in it, but I don't really think of it as a mecha show. When I think of mecha I think of series like Evangelion, Gundam, Macross (all of which bear mecha with the series name), and Eureka Seven. The mechs feature prominently in those series and are a major part of the storyline. In series like Code Geass mechs are like cars: they're there, they're used, but the series doesn't revolve around them.

Pretty much every mecha TV series post-Evangelion had a much greater focus on characters. That includes more recent versions of Gundam and Macross. Geass is a hybrid show like FMP, Lagrange, Aquarion, Muv Luv, etc. and as such heavily coated in modern tropes but each have well established popular mecha designs. I'd say that is different from shows that merely use it as decoration like Infinite Stratos or AKB0048.

Mecha-centric is pretty much limited to OVA (retro-)projects like Unicorn, Zero, Breakblade, Votoms etc. and kids shows like E7 or Gurren Lagann.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by gsilver

The problem there is that the people with money focus-group their ideas to death, and go with the elements that they think will sell.

Studios aren't interested in the best scripts. They're interested in $1.12 billion at the box office. Quality aside (36% on RottenTomatoes ), I think the studios are very happy with Transformers: Dark of the Moon

I was just saying that, there should be balance between good script and pandering considering that, most of the times, quality + pandering = sell like crazy (eg. Bakemonogatari, Unicorn, Fate/Zero, or The Avengers etc).

Originally Posted by fukarming

Even when a very good sci-fi series come out, it just simply don't generate a lot of buzz. Heroic Age is a very good show. I think most people who watch it love it. And yet it generate less buzz than say....K-on. I love K-on but I think there are more effort put in on Heroic Age.

I think the anime merchandise has changed over the years. Back then the main stream is for kids buying saint seiya/ gundam models while only serious anime fans buy character figurines. Nowadays figurines consist of the majority of sales and figurines can sell well without mecha/sci-fi.

Is there any information to show how many Lancelot frames are sold vs how many C.C/Karen related merchandise are sold?

Well, your previous argument was: “hard sci-fi is declining because it is hard to make and hard to please” and not about buzz. Now you said it yourself that for a good mecha series like Heroic Age “people who watch it love it”. In short, my argument still stands that a good script and engaging story will result in good response from anybody who watch it regardless of sales and hype. So, if the studio’s goal is just to get positive response from anybody who watch it, then good script (and easy-for-the-eyes designs) is all they need. On the other hand, if their goal is buzz and high sales, they better add some pandering in it. For example, Gundam SEED Destiny is not very good story-wise, but it’s still a commercially successful anime due to the mecha porn and fanservice of some fan’s-favorite characters, which resulted in a lot of buzz and good sales of the merchandise (Robot model kits and character figures alike).

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

So, if the studio’s goal is just to get positive response from anybody who watch it, then good script

Having a good script is a whole lot easier said than done,also just because you don't like a script doesn't mean its creator doesn't,Kawamori actually really likes Aquarion EVOL's script for example.

[NoemiChan]

In the mecha world... I think Gundam is still doing well...

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by hyl

Or the same for Macross Frontier, the love triangle, music were far more important than the mechas. I can't even remember the names of the mech's in macross Frontier

Macross failed into a dangerous trap of sticking to the "Tried and True". Sadly, later writers failed to grasp the true nature of space and its diversity, by which plotlines are far more than just love triangles, music, and space war.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by totoum

Having a good script is a whole lot easier said than done,also just because you don't like a script doesn't mean its creator doesn't,Kawamori actually really likes Aquarion EVOL's script for example.

Well, to be fair, I can argue with the same method as you. For example, M. Night Shyamalan also likes the script for Last Airbender as well as Uwe Boll likes the script for his video game-adaptation movies. And look how bad those movies turned out. In other words, if the creator likes a lackluster script strong enough to back it up, he basically fails. Unless he knows that the script is lackluster and he's going for the pandering anyway just to get more money.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Bri

Mostly boxed Blu-ray sets of the top-franchises (Evangelion, Gundam, Yamato) in that list. Those titles are, together with Ghibli movies, in a league of their own. They have a large seperate fan-base outside of the anime scene. Their sales hide the large drop off of new material in the last decade. You're going to struggle to find more than a dozen new mecha series since Geass.

If the most popular works in the mecha genre are outselling the most popular works of most other genres, the mecha genre doesn't seem to be dying. Another way of putting it is that most of the 100,000+ volume sellers out there are mecha works, and that most of those were sold in the last five years. Sure, this might be partially driven by non-otaku, but so what?

Originally Posted by fukarming

Even when a very good sci-fi series come out, it just simply don't generate a lot of buzz. Heroic Age is a very good show. I think most people who watch it love it. And yet it generate less buzz than say....K-on. I love K-on but I think there are more effort put in on Heroic Age.

K-On is possibly the most popular anime TV show since Evangelion, so it's not necessarily a good comparison.

Originally Posted by Bri

Pretty much every mecha TV series post-Evangelion had a much greater focus on characters. That includes more recent versions of Gundam and Macross. Geass is a hybrid show like FMP, Lagrange, Aquarion, Muv Luv, etc. and as such heavily coated in modern tropes but each have well established popular mecha designs. I'd say that is different from shows that merely use it as decoration like Infinite Stratos or AKB0048.

Unless you take an extremely purist view on what makes a mecha anime, there have been plenty of works where the mecha have primarily acted as decoration. If you do decide to exclude them, then you might as well drop Code Geass as well.

[synaesthetic]

Vividred Operation is... not mecha. What the... I don't even.

It's very obviously a magical-girl show. It's like someone took Nanoha, Pretty Cure and Strike Witches and threw them all in a blender.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Well, to be fair, I can argue with the same method as you. For example, M. Night Shyamalan also likes the script for Last Airbender as well as Uwe Boll likes the script for his video game-adaptation movies. And look how bad those movies turned out. In other words, if the creator likes a lackluster script strong enough to back it up, he basically fails. Unless he knows that the script is lackluster and he's going for the pandering anyway just to get more money.

What I was trying to say is that you make it sound like the mentality of people is "well this script is crappy but I don't give a damn" and while I'm sure that's the case sometimes I doubt it's the case most of the time, that's why I don't get a comment such as " So, if the studio’s goal is just to get positive response from anybody who watch it, then good script (and easy-for-the-eyes designs) is all they need." because I'm sure most creators do already try to make a good script and produce scripts they're satisfied with, and if they're not then there's a real problem in the industry

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by totoum

What I was trying to say is that you make it sound like the mentality of people is "well this script is crappy but I don't give a damn" and while I'm sure that's the case sometimes I doubt it's the case most of the time, that's why I don't get a comment such as " So, if the studio’s goal is just to get positive response from anybody who watch it, then good script (and easy-for-the-eyes designs) is all they need." because I'm sure most creators do already try to make a good script and produce scripts they're satisfied with, and if they're not then there's a real problem in the industry

I wasn’t saying that those creators don’t try their best green-lighting well-scripted shows. It’s just when a show like EVOL or Guilty Crown got green-lit, I think there are two possibilities, 1) the creators don’t realize that the script is lacking even though they already tried their best to analyze it, or 2) they know that the script is bad but go with it anyway because they’re quite satisfied with the pandering element of the show (the action, fanservice, moe characters, etc) which considered good for the sales. Which one happen more often? I don’t know. I need some solid statistic data on that.

[synaesthetic]

Lots of people produce stuff they know is terrible but will make money. Fifty Shades of Gray, anyone?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Vividred Operation is... not mecha. What the... I don't even.

It's very obviously a magical-girl show. It's like someone took Nanoha, Pretty Cure and Strike Witches and threw them all in a blender.

Any anime veteran who have been watching since Captain Harlock and.or Space Battleship Yamato CAN tell you that VRO is basically a Super Robot show where the mechas are replaced by moe little girls. The docking is straight out of Gao Gai Gar, the whole "Only ONE scientist have researched an ultimate weapon to fight the alien invaders" is straight out of a 1970s super robot show, and even the very optimistic state of mind is closer to a 1970-1980 super robot show (before the Eva era). Basically VRO is an attempt to tell a story straight out of a Super Robot story with elements of magical girl anime and super sentai. If Madoka have been compared to Evangelion, VRO IS trying to be Gao Gai Gar.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Any anime veteran who have been watching since Captain Harlock and.or Space Battleship Yamato CAN tell you that VRO is basically a Super Robot show where the mechas are replaced by moe little girls.

We should not GENERALIZED as if all of "anime veterans" have the same taste.... coz that makes those that disagree with you aren't "veterans" anymore....

Personally, IMHO, VRO as a mecha anime, never ever reached my mechanized mind until you claim that it is.... LOLSSSSSSSS

[totoum]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

We should not GENERALIZED as if all of "anime veterans" have the same taste.... coz that makes those that disagree with you aren't "veterans" anymore....

Sheba's argument has got nothing to do with taste