Mobile Suit Costs

[Komataguri]

Originally Posted by neodrag38

So you are saying that he was suffering withdrawal after he just took the drug only less than an hour ago? You still haven't really responded in explaining how exactly would a drug that would impact one's ability so much can be consumed in front in other officers with them knowing what it obviously is. And I remember the Hildolfr still being able to get off a shot on that very last Zaku soon enough. So it wasn't 100% taken out nor was unsavageable.

I am saying that, By the sheer fact that he was starting to act like he did on the Jotenheim before needing to pop another pill, and he was caught looking at his pill holder when the final Zaku got up on him.


You *did* watch the episode, right?


And I know it isn't 100% taken out, nor unsalvageable. I never said it wasnt.





Infact, I stated to the contrary, that the machine is a truely impressive device and quite powerful at that.

He clearly was actually managing the driving and firing. That the mech he was using still wasn't expected to defeat multiple Zakus nor was it even thought to be good enough to be brought back. So it should be clear that based on the specs of the weapon itself that its level of performance resulted more upon the skills of the pilot. The thing still was obviously a prototype that the guy never was given a chance to practice with ahead of time.

Yes he was. However the Hildolfr is more tank than Mech, in all honesty. Unlike the Guntank, which is more Mech than tank.

The Hildolfr is sleek, has speed, mobility, agility and multiple types of weapons for the main cannon

The Guntank was slow, large, ungainly, and only fired the same types of weaponry througout its entire use.

Before you get started, I'm not saying Hildolfr IS a tank, I'm saying ITS MORE tank than mech, unlike the Guntank which is more Mech than tank.

I never said the pilot wasn't skilled, He obviously was very skilled. Why do you keep ignoring the main objection I'm making? He was skilled, but he was not skilled as a tankmen, Whom was capable of hitting targets at high speed on the move.

And yes, it was a prototype, But the ony real flaw of the prototype was the weakness in the monoeye. But the monoeye weakness really isn't applicable, since if the pilot wasn't distracted with his withdrawl symptons and desire to take another pill to alieviate them, the final Zaku wouldn't have gotten close enough to shove his weapon inside Hildolfrs head and fire that shot.

It is when you have a Zaku coming up in which he has to defend himself right after making the tank move.

He hit the Zaku with Hildolfr, hardly skill. It dosn't take to much effort to accelerate into an object.

And focusing on MS that operate in Space and Earth isn't much of a theory when we have the existence of MS that clearly aren't intended for usage for both Earh and Space. It remains that the thing never had successor nor was made more than once. Its specs alone clearly still weren't intended to deal with Zakus.

Clearly your examples come after the Hildolfr, as well.


Also, Why should a Zeon weapon be DESIGNED to take out its OWN units? It was designed most likely for tank warfare and for longrange bombardment on installations and fortifications.

Why? Because the Federation didn't have mobile suits.

And the Guntank clearly makes it quite a possiblity to simply refit the thing for space usage.

Guntank wasn't refit for anything, The original guntank had the attitude thrusters, Which I'm sure was removed on the mass produced units along with the coreblock system....The Prototype Guntank was the only one used in space AFAIK anyways.


I can't very well see you being able to simply slap 15 or 20 thrusters onto the hildolfr for space combat.

And your assumption is fact how? It still remains that not all Zeon weapons were that of usable in both Earth and Space. And that it isn't simply an impossibility for the Hildorf to be made useful in space.

No, Not all weapons. But all those weapons did come after the Hildolfr, when Zeon was on the Mobile Suit/mobile armor kick.

[/quote]It still remains that the Hildolfr is not the only mech in that of UC that has taken out multiple Zakus.[/quote]

And again, Why are you comparing ALL of UC to something that existed very earily in the one year war?

Hildolfr was the highest performance weapon in use at that time, on earth, outside of high powered aircraft. I'd put money on it.

EDIT: Hmm, this conversation has lead to an interesting bout idea though. Hildorf vs Guntank would be interesting, though short.

Hildolfr.

[neodrag38]

Originally Posted by Komataguri

I am saying that, By the sheer fact that he was starting to act like he did on the Jotenheim before needing to pop another pill, and he was caught looking at his pill holder when the final Zaku got up on him.

You *did* watch the episode, right?

And I know it isn't 100% taken out, nor unsalvageable. I never said it wasnt.

I did watch it still remembering that it wasn't simply a matter of the Zaku taking it out. Every single Zaku still was taken down. It wasn't commented by any other the characters that they doubted that the Hildorf could defeat multiple Zakus simply because the pilot was inexperienced when it comes to using it. The thing was thought not to be able to do so anyway whatsoever and that the pilot didn't have the assistance he was suppose to have for targeting.

Infact, I stated to the contrary, that the machine is a truely impressive device and quite powerful at that.

Yes he was. However the Hildolfr is more tank than Mech, in all honesty. Unlike the Guntank, which is more Mech than tank.

The Hildolfr is sleek, has speed, mobility, agility and multiple types of weapons for the main cannon

The Guntank was slow, large, ungainly, and only fired the same types of weaponry througout its entire use.

Before you get started, I'm not saying Hildolfr IS a tank, I'm saying ITS MORE tank than mech, unlike the Guntank which is more Mech than tank.

Didn't say it wasn't powerful nor impressive. Just simply far from perfect nor was it ever suggested beforehand by any of the characters besides the pilot that it can be used to take out Zakus.

And yet the Guntank was still usable in space. And that its movement was still that of a tread movement rather than an MS type that was of the majority.

I never said the pilot wasn't skilled, He obviously was very skilled. Why do you keep ignoring the main objection I'm making? He was skilled, but he was not skilled as a tankmen, Whom was capable of hitting targets at high speed on the move.

And yes, it was a prototype, But the ony real flaw of the prototype was the weakness in the monoeye. But the monoeye weakness really isn't applicable, since if the pilot wasn't distracted with his withdrawl symptons and desire to take another pill to alieviate them, the final Zaku wouldn't have gotten close enough to shove his weapon inside Hildolfrs head and fire that shot.

He hit the Zaku with Hildolfr, hardly skill. It dosn't take to much effort to accelerate into an object.

And you are comparing a plural to a singular. That it was made clear that he didn't even have the full support of what the mobile tank was suppose to have.

A slow down of the tread having shrapnel stuck in it still is pretty much a flaw. It still allowed a slow down of the mobile tanks movements.

And you keep speaking as if what he didn't shouldn't take much effort when it should be kept in mind when it comes to him being surrounded by multiple targets. Simply casually commenting that something shouldn't take much effort is still an assumption where he makes it look easy when the truth of the matter is that none of the pilots in the Zakus thought it would be.

Also, Why should a Zeon weapon be DESIGNED to take out its OWN units? It was designed most likely for tank warfare and for longrange bombardment on installations and fortifications.

That's the point. That it wasn't expected to have a combat performance to take on multiple targets with the combat ability of Zakus. So it pretty much means that it was concluded by Zeon personnel excluding the pilot in question that nothing should be expected to make it be that powerful.

Guntank wasn't refit for anything, The original guntank had the attitude thrusters, Which I'm sure was removed on the mass produced units along with the coreblock system....The Prototype Guntank was the only one used in space AFAIK anyways.

I didn't say that the Guntank was refitted. I was clearly refering to having the Hildorf refitted.

I can't very well see you being able to simply slap 15 or 20 thrusters onto the hildolfr for space combat.

I wasn't suggesting that it should even come close to moving around as much in space. It still would have its usage in terms of just using its main weapon from a distance. It at least wouldn't have to need the amount of thrust that the Guntank had since the mobile tank does seem to be less grander in size.

No, Not all weapons. But all those weapons did come after the Hildolfr, when Zeon was on the Mobile Suit/mobile armor kick.

And again, Why are you comparing ALL of UC to something that existed very earily in the one year war?

Hildolfr was the highest performance weapon in use at that time, on earth, outside of high powered aircraft. I'd put money on it.

But again you refered to it as being immortal as it was pwning type of thing that couldn't possibly defeated. Next thing I know you'll claim that the Red Comet couldn't possibly take it on. And I did of course expected you to come at with the MS/MA Zeon kick that was made somewhat in response to the creation of the original gundam. But it doesn't change the fact that soon enough it would have been surpassed anyway. That to use the word immortal to describe it is taking it a bit far. In the confines of most that singular episode of MS Igloo, sure, but for the One Year War in its entirety not so much.

And you already have lost the bet when the thing was still scrapped. It's clear that during the time period the focus was transporting more weaopns into the earth sphere so if the thing was truly considered that powerful and even had a positive evaluation report put down for it that it should have seen more combat usage.

Hildolfr.

Why do you think I put down the word short?

[Commander 598]

A tank crew consists of the commander, who aquires and fires the shot.

and the driver, who drives it.

The third man nothing but the one that loads the rounds into the chamber, and is replacable with an auto-loader system.

WRONG.

A modern tank crew consists of three to four men.

Commander, Gunner, Driver, and a Loader. Whether or not a loader is a part of the crew or not depends on the unit in question. Just about every Russian/Soviet tank in existance has an auto-loader, but an M1A2 Abrams doesn't. Oddly enough, the rate of fire isn't much different, sometimes the manual loader beats the auto-loader.

[Knightmare213]

I have a question for the costs for mobile suit's mass-production.

Let's say, taking the GINN from SEED for example, would the cost be halved in half if the mobile suit's size was cut to half?

[Scorch]

Originally Posted by Knightmare213

I have a question for the costs for mobile suit's mass-production.

Let's say, taking the GINN from SEED for example, would the cost be halved in half if the mobile suit's size was cut to half?

I would guess no. Some of the raw materials costs would be significantly reduced, but sensors and computers etc would still need to stay the same size to perform the same function - assuming that technology hadn't significantly changed.

[JokerD]

Originally Posted by Knightmare213

I have a question for the costs for mobile suit's mass-production.

Let's say, taking the GINN from SEED for example, would the cost be halved in half if the mobile suit's size was cut to half?

I would think that cost would actually go up. Even if there are savings in raw materials the cost for more compact equipment to fit into the MS could push the cost upward. Also there's the upkeep to think about since smaller things are more prone to breakdowns and more expensive to repair.

[Besserwisser]

Originally Posted by Soluzar

Now me, I play Super Robot Wars a lot. I'm telling you straight out that in those games, no amount of Nemo, Rick Dias and GM mobile suits is worth as much on the battlefield as the Zeta or the Hyaku Shiki. That may be innacurate in real world terms, but I never really questioned it myself. I tend to think that the powerful uniques and prototypes are worth the extra investment for the miltary powers who control them. Tell me, do you really think that the "bum rush" would be an effective strategy in mobile suit battles?

Actualy, it depends on the Defenses of the Gang Banged Unit and the Offensive Capabilites of the Rushers.


If the Rushers do have a weapon that can wear the Defenses down, the super unit will go down. Even super dodge wont help in a crossfire situation.

Thats why the "Dont let em shoot" aproach of the Blitz Gundam and all other cloackable MS es ist basicly the RIGHT thing to do.

The F-22 or F-35 are expensive, yes no doubt, but the losses will be minimized since most enemys wont get a good lock on them to shoot em.



Cloackers 4tw

[Soluzar]

I've agreed with a few of the points raised in this discussion, but I still don't see why it's so attractive to compare mobile suits to tanks. There have been only a few suits in the whole of Gundam that could be compared in any way to tanks. The mobile armor units are intended to be the tanks of the world, as supported by the fact that military argot used to refer to tanks as "armor" units.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Thanks to Shikami (Thanks a million!!!! ), she has sent me the data needed to put the MS cost questions to rest:

"Due to the lack of surviving data, we cannot be sure of the precise cost of a single Zaku. A rough calculation suggests that the cost of one Zaku would be about five times that of the Type-61 tank then used by the Federation Forces. This Type-61 tank meanwhile, was 300 times as expensive as a civilian automobile, according to data from U.C. 0078. So we can say that one MS cost roughly as much as 1,500 of the automobiles we use in our daily lives."

...From "Mobile Suit Museum ~ since U.C. 100", a book available for purchase only from the Bandai Museum. (Yes, it's in both English and Japanese)

Once again, all credits to Shikami in digging up the info for me.

[Komataguri]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Thanks to Shikami (Thanks a million!!!! ), she has sent me the data needed to put the MS cost questions to rest:

"Due to the lack of surviving data, we cannot be sure of the precise cost of a single Zaku. A rough calculation suggests that the cost of one Zaku would be about five times that of the Type-61 tank then used by the Federation Forces. This Type-61 tank meanwhile, was 300 times as expensive as a civilian automobile, according to data from U.C. 0078. So we can say that one MS cost roughly as much as 1,500 of the automobiles we use in our daily lives."

...From "Mobile Suit Museum ~ since U.C. 100", a book available for purchase only from the Bandai Museum. (Yes, it's in both English and Japanese)

Once again, all credits to Shikami in digging up the info for me.

So...around 20-30 million? oO;;

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by Komataguri

So...around 20-30 million? oO;;

Perhaps, so now Imagine how much Freedom, or any other gundam, would cost.

[Knightmare213]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

Perhaps, so now Imagine how much Freedom, or any other gundam, would cost.

Probably as much as an American nuclear-powered aircraft carriers, which is about $5 billion in USD.

Also, thanks to Scorch and JokerD. So far, I have something to say in my fan fiction for that kind of plan. But I'd like some other people about the question.

The question is, if the mobile suits were built smaller, would the cost go down?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

The question is, if the mobile suits were built smaller, would the cost go down?

Why would it go down?

Well, it depends on two factors. Two things makes an MS expensive, assuming it's a mass-produced model and it's research/development cost is not factored in.

1. The materials. Large things like an MS uses lost of materials as a matter of course, but how expensive is it to make it? Ceramic-titanium composite armour (or any other super-armour) can be worth a pretty penny... And the metals used for the skeleton of the mobile suit has to be quite strong as well. In this case, a smaller mobile-suit would need less expensive raw materials, so in THEORY should be cheaper...

Except for...
2. The electronics. The wiring, power-source, motors, sensors, weapon systems etc would need to be compromised some how in performance in order to maintain the same costs as the larger MS, as there is less room for everything. The MS is either going to have a relatively cheaper electronics/hardware option, or more money has to be spent in creating more advanced equipment.

Naturaly, I am not saying that larger is cheaper. Rather, there is an ideal size for an MS that is suitible for mass-production which creates a product that is both viable for combat and can be aforable in large numbers.

Too large, and we get Psycho Gundams who are impossible to reproduce easily due to material costs.

Too small, and we get small powersuits that needed extremely expensive complex electronics to be compact enough fo the space given.

[Eclipze]

We do have to question the reliability of MS-es in real combat situation....You really cant expect an Ms like Wingdam to fly as fast as a fighter jet, since it is relatively heavier, plus it would take alot of raw power to lift off the relatively large MS.

Unless, the MS-es are immune to tank shells and bullets, I dont see it being really practical. Large and slow, requires alot of micro-management within the suit itself, yet also dodge enemy fire?

And the costs makes it even more unworthy in combat.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

I guess it also depends on how high the absolute total amount of money in the world is in that time period. It must've gone up A LOT.

After reading so much stuff about the costs, it's hard to imagine even ONE Mobile Suit can be mass produced and be called "cheap" in any sort of way and STILL make prototypes of other things as well...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

We do have to question the reliability of MS-es in real combat situation....You really cant expect an Ms like Wingdam to fly as fast as a fighter jet, since it is relatively heavier, plus it would take alot of raw power to lift off the relatively large MS.

Unless, the MS-es are immune to tank shells and bullets, I dont see it being really practical. Large and slow, requires alot of micro-management within the suit itself, yet also dodge enemy fire?

And the costs makes it even more unworthy in combat.

We are not talking about MS in real-life situations... That's another topic all together.

Within the UC universe, the MS IS fast, agile, and resistant to tank shells due to the heavy shields they carry and their ability to move in a less predictable manner than a tank. Sci-Fi is Sci-Fi.

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

We are not talking about MS in real-life situations... That's another topic all together.

Within the UC universe, the MS IS fast, agile, and resistant to tank shells due to the heavy shields they carry and their ability to move in a less predictable manner than a tank. Sci-Fi is Sci-Fi.

In a sense(fairly far-fetched), both issues are related.

I mean, its better to use the price comparision with a regular tank/aircraft to an MS, and to consider the performance capability as well.

Oh, and if the thread only relates to the costs of MS-es, then I believe it has achieved its goal.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

In a sense(fairly far-fetched), both issues are related.

I mean, its better to use the price comparision with a regular tank/aircraft to an MS, and to consider the performance capability as well.

Oh, and if the thread only relates to the costs of MS-es, then I believe it has achieved its goal.

Well... Not quite...

We know the average, cheap MS costs 1500 family sedans...

Anyway, if you want to talk about how impractical it is to build a military MS in the modern day with existing technology, then I doubt anyone would argue against you. We don't have compact fusion reactors, you see. Nor the quantum physics knowledge to contain plasma in a magnetic-field blade. Most of all, our world doesn't have detection barriers against extreme long-range weapons in the same way UC and CE universe has.

This old chestnut has been chewed enough around here, but if you want to try drumming up an argument about how ridiculous it would be for an MS to exist in real life, you are of course free to do so. I am just not sure it would be easy to find a poster here who is willing to talk about it any more; the topic's been done to death.

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

This old chestnut has been chewed enough around here, but if you want to try drumming up an argument about how ridiculous it would be for an MS to exist in real life, you are of course free to do so. I am just not sure it would be easy to find a poster here who is willing to talk about it any more; the topic's been done to death.

Um, isnt it the same with this thread?

Thread title: Mobile Suit Costs.
"point" of the thread: Find out the cost of MS in relativity to RL.
"goal" achieved?: Yes.

Or am I missing something? Because I dont think figures can be speculated as much as opposed to something like "Why GSD failed". It only deals with 1 aspect of the topic: Costs.