10 Bits MKV why ???

[thed]

Askin here cause i'm not sur where else ^^;

Lately i see lot of team makin 10bits files...why ???
Its freakin heavy (like double of 8bits, well not a pro but they only do it for 1080def and it's always freakin BIG) and no matter how much i zoom it change NOTHIN...
Add to this my PC wich is ONLY 2 year old, 5core cpu, 6go RAM window7 x64 etc...got a HARD time to play them correctly Oo

So i'm askin here: why peoples doin this ?
Do you really see somethin changin with 10bits ?
Is there a point ???

P.s: no drama, askin seriously for a serious reply ^^

[sa547]

For 10-bit issues, you can post a question here:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=106881

They're also talking about playing 10-bit vids in a subnotebook:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=108162

Simply put, the reason for some fansub groups to make the 10-bit switch is for encoders to reduce the size of the video file while maintaining the quality of the original capture.

The players that may allow 10-bit playback are: smplayer, mplayer2 and possibly CCCP.

OBTW, I think those encodes will work best with dual or quad-core processors.

[thed]

Well since i tried to instal Mpeg2 i can't even open them lol, only give a black screen now !
CCCP is only codecs, and that's what i had before, but couldn't read 10bits "clean"
VLC only give green screens for These !
(and Smplayer dont do better compare Mplayer)

For example Comme Last Exile are all black now, when Sfwhine all clean !

[Dhomochevsky]

I had the same problem, but installing the newest CCCP solved it.
My CCCP was pretty new before that, so they must have put some support in very recently.

[thed]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

I had the same problem, but installing the newest CCCP solved it.
My CCCP was pretty new before that, so they must have put some support in very recently.

Just got the 11-11-2011 one (latest) and still black.

Edit: nvm clean now (was not installin everythin since i had MPC alrdy installed, and u have to unable EVERY options or it won't work...)
Well thxy ^^
But still dont really understand the need...until you have HDscreens like 100cm high ?...

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by thed

Well since i tried to instal Mpeg2 i can't even open them lol, only give a black screen now !
CCCP is only codecs, and that's what i had before, but couldn't read 10bits "clean"
VLC only give green screens for These !
(and Smplayer dont do better compare Mplayer)

For example Comme Last Exile are all black now, when Sfwhine all clean !

CCCP comes with Classic Media Player...


I like anything they can do to reduce file sizes (or at least keep them at 200-300MB).

[Dist]

Originally Posted by thed

Just got the 11-11-2011 one (latest) and still black.

Edit: nvm clean now (was not installin everythin since i had MPC alrdy installed, and u have to unable EVERY options or it won't work...)
Well thxy ^^
But still dont really understand the need...until you have HDscreens like 100cm high ?...

I don't think you understand what 10bit does. It reduces the file size, not increase it, while maintaining quality. That's all it does. Same quality, less file size, means more files fit on HDD.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by sa547

Simply put, the reason for some fansub groups to make the 10-bit switch is for encoders to reduce the size of the video file while maintaining the quality of the original capture.

Actually, as an encoder I'd say it's even more than that: 10bit encodes look noticeably BETTER than their 8bit counterparts, particularly in the gradient area. For me, the size savings is merely a convenient sideeffect. It's the quality gain that convinced me to change to 10bit.

[0utf0xZer0]

I just use the included Media Player Classic Home Cinema in the 2011-11-11 CCCP pack, configured to use LAV as the decoder due to the speed although the default FFDShow decoder also works with 10 bit.

Personally I love the combination of better quality and smaller file sizes in 10 bit - provided encoders keep things reasonable so that their 720P version can run on my Thinkpad's AMD E-350 with softsubs on. I don't mind what they do with the 1080P - I knew the Thinkpad wouldn't be able to handle that when I got it and I don't really have the bandwidth and drive space to collect 1080P anyway.

[sa547]

In any case, a single-core PC circa-2005 might not be up to snuff, so does upgrading or buying a new PC (dual or quad core) necessary to play such vids?

[tugatosmk]

So why are almost all fansubbers releasing both versions of x264 mkv (8-bit & 10-bit) with the exact same size? I'd understand if they made a half-sized version with the 10-bit version; it would be cool to be able to encode 1080p 25 min episodes with just 233 MB or similar, so we could stop have 1 GB for a 25 min episode, like I've seen (or even 2 GB)...

Please note that I'm not against better technology, I'm all for best quality-file size ratio. But... for all what the encoders say about 10-bit being better with gradients, I can't notice it... and I tested the latest 1080p 8-bit mkv (like Kamisama Dolls) on my brand new LCD (a Samsung UE32D 6530) and the image quality is astounding, I couldn't find anything wrong, even in dark scenes or the aforementioned gradients... Not to mention my LCD can't play 10-bit x264; now I have to test my Media Center or get my MPC or VLC player to play the video without weird colouring on my laptop... yay...

But what bothers me the most is that some fansubbers (fortunately only a few) aren't doing a "transition" period from 8-bit to 10-bit x264 like the one witnessed (and that still exists in some few cases) from xvid to x264, in which the fansubbers released the same episode in both formats.

[Vexx]

Well.. just because a new technology is "mathematically" or "theoretically" better doesn't mean the gleeful adapters are *using it well*

[Jaden]

If used right it will produce smaller sized and slightly better quality encodes, and people are getting better at tapping into this potential.

It also takes a longer time to encode 10bit than 8bit, which can be annoying to the people that put out all them videos. It also takes more system resources to decode and play back, which is annoying to people that don't update their hardware.

Is it worth the hassle? On its own not really, but it's a part of progress. As the standards of monitors and other hardware increase, software protocols must be adapted to keep up with them.

Here's a pretty noticeable difference on some Steins;Gate screenshots. You can see the subtle color transitions being smoother with 10bit encoding.

[jpwong]

Originally Posted by tugatosmk

So why are almost all fansubbers releasing both versions of x264 mkv (8-bit & 10-bit) with the exact same size? I'd understand if they made a half-sized version with the 10-bit version; it would be cool to be able to encode 1080p 25 min episodes with just 233 MB or similar, so we could stop have 1 GB for a 25 min episode, like I've seen (or even 2 GB)...

Probably the same reason groups were releasing identical resolution, identical sized xvid and h.264 releases when the technology first came out. The whole mentality of better quality instead of smaller file size.

[sa547]

Originally Posted by Jaden

It also takes a longer time to encode 10bit than 8bit, which can be annoying to the people that put out all them videos. It also takes more system resources to decode and play back, which is annoying to people that don't update their hardware.

Is it worth the hassle? On its own not really, but it's a part of progress. As the standards of monitors and other hardware increase, software protocols must be adapted to keep up with them.

As there are casual anime fans even in slums (there are rental shops to use by the hour), not everyone could afford to supersize to even an i3, so (by my observations) rather than downloading most have to make do with reduced-quality streaming video or FLVs (assuming that their bandwidth is excellent).

I agree that the software (and possibly hardware acceleration, if manufacturers ever care) has to be improved on to take advantage of this emerging technology.

[tugatosmk]

Originally Posted by jpwong

Probably the same reason groups were releasing identical resolution, identical sized xvid and h.264 releases when the technology first came out. The whole mentality of better quality instead of smaller file size.

In the xvid to x264 transition, I could understand why they kept the same file size, although I didn't completely agree with it (fortunately, nowadays some groups that still release xvid have the sensibility to release the xvid version with 233 MB and the x264 version with 174 MB). Back then, the goal was to eliminate all quantization artifacts, color gradient issues and such, which xvid could't do without really big file sizes, and which x264 solved IMO (or at least almost completely solved).

Now, considering this "theory" of mine, since that "goal" was achieved, the next goal should be to maintain the same quality while decreasing file size. Of course that this size decrease should be gradual, in order to "compensate" the relatively small improvements given by 10-bit over 8-bit, at least according to:

Originally Posted by Jaden

Here's a pretty noticeable difference on some Steins;Gate screenshots. You can see the subtle color transitions being smoother with 10bit encoding.

Of course, however, I realize that, with the advent of 720p/1080p encoding and BluRay discs, this "theory" of mine will never be considered, and we'll still get huge sized videos. Sadly for me, BD drives and BD discs are still expensive in my country, so I still burn DVD discs...

Also, burning a 26 eps. series in 1080p with 1 GB per episode needs 6 DVD discs, which is a lot for a 26 eps. series... Sure, most will say to me "download the 720p or even the 480p if you're worried about disc quantity". That's true, but LCDs don't provide the best image quality at 480p compared to CRT; and since the future is high resolution LCD (the CRT won't function forever, sadly to me), 720p or higher would be the way to go, right?

[sneaker]

I think many TV releases still have banding. Groups didn't actually bother to raise the bitrate of their 8 bit encodes enough to completely get rid of that, so we can't expect great improvements on these. My hopes lay on BD releases, where some releases were ridiculously huge to eliminate any banding. This is were 10 bit could be a huge space saver. could ...