Madoka Magica - Episode 06 Discussion / Poll

[Dark Wing]

Also if you think about it I would be very difficult to recruit Magical Girls all the time so why not make them virtually immortal on top of the super powers?

Sure you run the risk of losing your soul however these little detail can me over looked when you think about the over all gain and importance of your job.

[Kaijo]

Let's put it this way: What he is doing is benefiting humanity. He is furnishing us with the tools to defend ourselves.

Perhaps he is doing it in a way that makes you uncomfortable, but unless we have a better option, we're stuck with what works. If you believe this to be a cynical universe, then Kyube's way is the right way. Anyone who spouts idealistic nonsense (like Madoka) is simply being a naive fool. Sacrifices have to be made. That's the way the world works, and naivete is useless at best, and downright dangerous at worst (witness Madoka "tossing her friend away").

Kyube is the pragmatic realist in a cynical world. we may hate him, but we have to grudgingly realize that he's right. Unless we have a better option, we just have to suck it up and accept that this is the way things have to be done.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Sure you run the risk of losing your soul however these little detail can me over looked when you think about the over all gain.

What it the overall gain? I mean it's not that you've ever seen a happy magical girl in this show, right? They're all screwed one way or another. You can speculate about hypothetical gain and such, but in the actual show there's no a single example of it.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Let's put it this way: What he is doing is benefiting humanity. He is furnishing us with the tools to defend ourselves.

I agree and for those how say Kyuube is dishonest well dishonesty may be the only way for him to get his job done. Can you really picture trying to get someone to join your war effort by reminding them about how dangerous it can be?

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

What it the overall gain? I mean it's not that you've ever seen a happy magical girl in this show, right? They're all screwed one way or another. You can speculate about hypothetical gain and such, but in the actual show there's no a single example of it.

Well at least in this show you get something for your hard work One wish, Super Powers, and Immortality?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Kyube is the pragmatic realist in a cynical world. we may hate him, but we have to grudgingly realize that he's right. Unless we have a better option, we just have to suck it up and accept that this is the way things have to be done.

You can only say that if you assume he's doing this whole thing for humanity's sake. But that in itself is speculation, because he never said such a thing. And without it, this whole theory falls to pieces.

[Kaijo]

"Sign up for World War II, kids! You'll risk death, losing limbs, and come back with mental issues, but you'll be helping to save the free world from a dire threat!"

...


"Hmm, why is no one signing up? Maybe we need a different campaign, and should probably gloss over the bad stuff, or else we'll lose the war..."

Edit:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

You can only say that if you assume he's doing this whole thing for humanity's sake. But that in itself is speculation, because he never said such a thing. And without it, this whole theory falls to pieces.

Whether he is doing it for humanity is ultimately irrelevant. Even if he is doing it for selfish measures (Maybe the grief seeds are currency where he comes from, so he's getting rich), he's still helping. He's like an arms dealer, supplying the allies with weapons that will help them defeat Germany in World War II.

[fertygo]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Let's put it this way: What he is doing is benefiting humanity. He is furnishing us with the tools to defend ourselves.

Perhaps he is doing it in a way that makes you uncomfortable, but unless we have a better option, we're stuck with what works. If you believe this to be a cynical universe, then Kyube's way is the right way. Anyone who spouts idealistic nonsense (like Madoka) is simply being a naive fool. Sacrifices have to be made. That's the way the world works, and naivete is useless at best, and downright dangerous at worst (witness Madoka "tossing her friend away").

Kyube is the pragmatic realist in a cynical world. we may hate him, but we have to grudgingly realize that he's right. Unless we have a better option, we just have to suck it up and accept that this is the way things have to be done.

I'm really don't like the way you said your point, its like u justifying brothel persuating poor girl to be prostitute. Its give them money to live anyway !

Sorry if my analogy was little bit extreme.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Any wish in the world, Super Powers, and Immortality?

In the end, all that means nothing if it doesn't make you happy, right?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by fertygo

I'm really don't like the way you said your point, its like u justifying brothel persuating poor girl to be prostitute. Its give them money to live anyway !

Sorry if my analogy was little bit extreme.

I didn't want to do this, but at this point I think it is prudent. If you haven't already, go to this page and read up on the concept:

Sliding Scale of Idealism versus Cynicism

Even if you have read it before, refresh yourself. Because a lot of points in this debate hinge on which universe you believe Madoka to fall into. Once you've made your choice, we can talk.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Whether he is doing it for humanity is ultimately irrelevant. Even if he is doing it for selfish measures (Maybe the grief seeds are currency where he comes from, so he's getting rich), he's still helping. He's like an arms dealer, supplying the allies with weapons that will help them defeat Germany in World War II.

So that's it. As long as his actions are convenient for humanity (even it was just a side effect) then it doesn't matter what's his real intention, you say.

Interesting...

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Here are some examples that you may wish to consider if they are evil. These are all manipulative, deceitful and dangerous. The last is from a view point of an animal but this animal has human intelligence (which is one point many seem to be missing)

i) Enron's CEO encouraged their staff to buy their shares a few days before it collasped. Those who did screwed their old age funds and could be homeless and/or bankrupt and that includes your parents. Evil? Not evil?

ii) A con man tricks your parents into thinking you've been kidnapped and get them to give him their life savings, their house (sold) and your savings. Evil? Not evil?

iii) Man drives on the road with a semi and ignores any sedan sized car smashing them and their passengers aside or simply rolling over the motorcyclists because he can't see or hear very well. Evil? Not evil?

iv) Your new girlfriend/boyfriend tells you that she/he needs one of your kidneys or they will die and its true. While you're under anesthesia, they take both your kidneys and she/he disappears. Now you're on dialysis for the rest of your life or until a kind person donates to you. Evil? Not evil?

v) Cannibal says he's like that because of a DNA problem and he's not exactly human and its true. He proceeds to eat your dad who he coerced into knocking himself out by threatening to harm you. He says he would like to eat your mom too because he's still hungry. Maybe he just enjoys eating or he's really still hungry. You don't know. Evil? Not evil?

I would consider all of those evil. #5 is questionable but then again I expect that we as the viewers will know whether Kyuube enjoys eating or he's actually hungry.

[fertygo]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Even if you have read it before, refresh yourself. Because a lot of points in this debate hinge on which universe you believe Madoka to fall into. Once you've made your choice, we can talk.

I'm not interested to have endless wall of text debate with you, its not like gonna ended with something anyway. Just telling your post kinda amusing.

But geez... the thing is QB is manipulating those girl n not telling everything they should know. And how you can be so sure what he doing is for "Justice's side" is 100% right and thus make all of his action is justified?

I don't believe this show is only about Black and White.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

So that's it. As long as his actions are convenient for humanity (even it was just a side effect) then it doesn't matter what's his real intention, you say.

Interesting...

Not quite. It means that, if he's doing it for a selfish reason (such as getting rich), then I don't care much. He's still helping us win the war. Everyone is selfish; we do things in our own best interest all the time.

I've already stated things that would make me think he's evil. I can post them again if you like. His intentions do play a role, but to date, we haven't seen anything from his intentions other than his desire to make magical girls to fight witches.

That's it.

Anything else is pure speculation. And if it is revealed that Kyube set this whole thing up so he could have MG's and witches fighting each other, then I'll think he's evil. Not before.

Originally Posted by fertygo

I'm not interested to have endless wall of text debate with you,

Well then, don't respond to someone, and don't come into a discussion forum, if you aren't interested in a discussion.

But geez... the thing is QB is manipulating those girl n not telling everything they should know. And how you can be so sure what he doing is for "Justice's side" is 100% right and thus make that let all his action is justified?

I don't know. That's the point. There are people here claiming they do know, even though we haven't been provided with that kind of proof yet. Do you think it is sensible to jump to a conclusion that someone is bad when we don't have proof? Sure, things may look a bit sketchy, but looks can always be deceiving.

I don't believe this show is only about Black and White.

Agreed. Kyube is neither good nor evil, black nor white (well, he does have white fur ). He's kinda like a robot, a tool designed to facilitate the plot. He just *is*.

If anything, I'd say the antagonist was the overall situation. If this were a more idealistic series, I'd expect our heroes to find some neat and sparkly idea that would resolve everything nicely.

In a cynical universe, even nice guys have to do "bad" things in order to win.

Bad guy: "Sure I killed tons of people. But if you shoot me, you'll be no better than me!"
Cynical protagonist: "Maybe. Maybe not. But if I let you live, you'll get off and repeat the whole tragedy again. So I guess I'll just learn to live with myself." *shoots and kills the bad guy*

Naive person: "Why did you kill him!? That wasn't necessary! We could have convinced him to come to the good side!"

[J the Drafter]

I was annoyed at Madoka this episode. First she didn't understand that Kyoko wanted to kill Sayaka, then she tossed the source of Sayaka's powers where neither of them could retrieve it while a dangerous enemy was right in front of them. Can't she think?

[Makender]

Honestly, Kyube's response to Madoka's whimpering right at the end makes me think that he has disclosed this imformation before to ill magical girl recruiting effect. Kyube seems like a utilitarian to me or one who places the most value on practicality and efficiency. Hardly one to be evil. Just a different outlook on how things should get done.

[serenade_beta]

Q-Beh... Gotta love how he asks Madoka to make a contract with her every episode.
But anyways, the shocking truth! That's why you have to read the contract entirely before you sign. This is a good lesson for all viewers, yes, indeed.
But still... Q-Beh's way of thinking... The same level as the typical RPG final boss. A lot of final bosses supposedly try to do "good" but does stuff that seems or is evil to others.

........................Madoka is so annoying. ( -_-)
Q-Beh is so evil, it's great, but Madoka is so "kind", it's bad.

PS: The dimensions of that wine glass was kind of weird... The size of the ice, the amount of wine in it... Kind of odd, but that is also Shaft quality.

[akei1]

Originally Posted by Makender

Honestly, Kyube's response to Madoka's whimpering right at the end makes me think that he has disclosed this imformation before to ill magical girl recruiting effect. Kyube seems like a utilitarian to me or one who places the most value on practicality and efficiency. Hardly one to be evil. Just a different outlook on how things should get done.

There's a form of lying called Lying by omission: One lies by omission when omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception.

QB admitted that everyone were disturbed when he told them the truth about the Soul Gem in the past.

When QB didn't tell someone the truth about the Soul Gem, knowing it would disturb them, he's lying by omission. QB is definitely not neutral; he is being manipulative to form contracts. His methods are evil but sometimes you fight evil with evil lol

I never took the term Soul Gem literally. Really shocking good episode.

[Guardian Enzo]

Blog post:

Spoiler for Episode 6:

I find the discussion of this series most fascinating, not surprising given how intellectually dense and hard to predict as it is. I personally find these defenses of Kyuube to range from specious to outright laughable - the end justifying the means is a weak argument even when in its strongest form, which is certainly isn't here - but when you have folks defending it even after it admits it sucks out little girls' souls and turns them to stone as part of a contract signed under false pretenses, it's clear this is not a voting block that's going to be easily persuaded.

That was certainly a dark and grim episode even by this show's standards. While I'm quite secure in my view on Kyuube I'm not going to defend Homura as 100% pure either. In some ways she's as opportunistic as Kyuube is, apparently - I think she's primarily interested in Madoka and the other humans (and ex-humans) are relevant to her - as to Kyuubee - only as tools to accomplish her goal of keeping her from its clutches. Even the act of retrieving the stone that was Sayaka and reanimating her corpse was only done to keep Madoka from falling into total despair, it seems to me, rather than any feelings for Sayaka. We don't really know much about Homura's goals at this point - indeed, whether she too is a zombie, or from the future, or something else altogether - only that her methods are considerably more ethical and humane than Kyuube's.

I really admire what Urobuchi and Shinbo are doing here. They've been totally fearless in subverting the Mahou Shoujo genre. Nothing is sacred, no corner too dark or despair too deep. it's like they've taken every ugly and twisted thought you might have had about what could be going on under the surface of a MG series and given it life. Because of that this is a unnerving but exhilarating series to watch - there's no sense of a buffer zone, a safe place where you know "at least things won't get to that level." Anything could happen - that's obvious by now - so don't get too comfortable...

[Makender]

Originally Posted by akei1

There's a form of lying called Lying by omission: One lies by omission when omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception.

QB admitted that everyone were disturbed when he told them the truth about the Soul Gem in the past.

When QB didn't tell someone the truth about the Soul Gem, knowing it would disturb them, he's lying by omission. QB is definitely not neutral; he is being manipulative to form contracts. His methods are evil but sometimes you fight evil with evil lol

I never took the term Soul Gem literally. Really shocking good episode.

Yes, so he stopped telling them the truth outright. Don't know if that's evil per se, but this has already been beaten dead. Guess this just rings true to the overall theme of the episode that sometimes you've gotta do something wrong to achieve something "right," ultimately ending with Madoka's misinterpretation of her mother's words and incredibly thoughtless actions.

Anyways, any one else getting dark corruption vibes from Sayaka. She's getting more unlikable in my book episode by episode.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by akei1

There's a form of lying called Lying by omission: One lies by omission when omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception.

So, do you believe Homura is evil then? Is she a liar as well?

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I find the discussion of this series most fascinating, not surprising given how intellectually dense and hard to predict as it is. I personally find these defenses of Kyuube to range from specious to outright laughable - the end justifying the means is a weak argument even when in its strongest form, which is certainly isn't here - but when you have folks defending it even after it admits it sucks out little girls' souls and turns them to stone as part of a contract signed under false pretenses, it's clear this is not a voting block that's going to be easily persuaded.

That's the key right there: people like me can be persuaded. I've even stated up front what it would take. Those cannot be persuaded, are those that have already made up their minds. They believe Kyube is evil, and nothing will sway them. So yes, one side is open to persuasion, while another is not. At least, I am.

And "ends justify the means" has been done in many stories before as a legitimate tactic. That's what happens in cynical universes. Let's look up our lovable rogue, Han Solo. In the original, he shot first. He made his living smuggling stuff, and wasn't afraid to shoot to kill. Was he evil?

I really admire what Urobuchi and Shinbo are doing here. They've been totally fearless in subverting the Mahou Shoujo genre. Nothing is sacred, no corner too dark or despair too deep. it's like they've taken every ugly and twisted thought you might have had about what could be going on under the surface of a MG series and given it life. Because of that this is a unnerving but exhilarating series to watch - there's no sense of a buffer zone, a safe place where you know "at least things won't get to that level." Anything could happen - that's obvious by now - so don't get too comfortable...

If you really think this, you haven't watched enough of the genre, heh. Dark and grim mahou shoujo has been done before. That's not to say that Madoka doesn't have some redeeming merit; it does. It's a decent show (just hoping the plot holes are resolved). But as you yourself have stated, this has happened before, especially if you believe this is Faustian in nature.