2006-10-31, 11:02
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Link #23 | |
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sleepyhead
 Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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  It's too.. volatile..  And BTW, it's against the rules.
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2006-10-31, 11:08
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Link #24 | |
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BaKa
Join Date: Apr 2006
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I'll stop it when you tell me what volatile means. heh. But I was being curios without the insultive side, but actualy wanted people to question whether Kira & xian God is any dif (besides one failing... or is it both?...) |
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2006-10-31, 12:08
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Link #26 | ||
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Golden
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: 9th Temple
Age: 45
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So even if Lights reasons are god intentioned, I don’t agree with the approach he has on the matter. Quote:
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2006-10-31, 12:12
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Link #27 | ||
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The Dark Knight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 38
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The guy who was holding those kids hostages wasn't exactly in the slammer. Neither was that bank robber who later died. Then there was also that thug who was trying to rape that girl. I agree though that he became drunk with his power though. Though the question remains whether or not the good people would've died if they had not targeted him. A docile spiderl does not strike if it is not harmed. Quote:
If you want to relate to real life, I doubt anyone would actually say that some guy was responsible for this "unknown" deaths and be able to catch him. |
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2006-10-31, 12:35
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Link #28 | |
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BaKa
Join Date: Apr 2006
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God caries out his justice, so does Raito. Ya sure God is an all powerful being with foreseeing & etc (though I doubt this in some way or otherwise he would have know everything that happened up until now; in my view, no offences please, he either likes to see people squirm - implying he's a sadist; or he was extremely bored so created a world which he already knew would be messed up) Funny, wasn't Raito also BORED in the 1st chapter. Somebody say stop, cause I'm starting to turn this into a religious debate. grrr |
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2006-10-31, 13:31
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Link #29 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
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After Jesus die on the Cross, God shooting Fire Balls from the sky to kill everyone (Some people are the doing their job like The FBI Agent, But the point is if those people really recognize the him, they would even abandon their Job, Duty to worship JEsus.) Light kun kill people who are trying to catch//stop//kill him. He is not going to kill Everyone in the world who are oppose him. Quote:
Last edited by ThisIsDream; 2006-10-31 at 14:07. Reason: I thought this thread is for ppl who have read the series, so they can give example from the story to support their points :) |
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2006-10-31, 13:50
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Link #30 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Thanks for quoting me, ThisIsDream, but the thing you quoted is from the manga thread...and I'm sure that quote contains spoilers...you might want to fix that
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Last edited by Neux; 2006-10-31 at 14:02. |
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2006-10-31, 14:10
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Link #31 | |||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Yea that exactly what I thought Quote:
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Actually, it is not off topic. The word "God" did mentioned in Death note, so we gotta know the definition of "GoD" first. Again, different point of views, what is the definition of GoD to everyone? |
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2006-10-31, 17:28
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Link #32 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southern Caliornia
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It doesnt matter what is moral or not. Light sets the new morals and ethics and he knows this. Which makes him so damn scary. For now he is testing the Death Note and seeing what works and what doesn work. Of course some of the things he needs to try out are unethical. But the thing that I dont get is this, yes Ive noticed a few people that this world dont need. And Im talking major scum bags like Castro and so on. But I dont think I could use the Death Note to rid the world of this garbage. So what I dont understand is How Light can use it so trivialy. He did have a mildde breakdown once he learnd that it was for real, but he got over that fairly quickly and he even takes pleasure in useing it. This kid who is no older than I am may be a genius but he truly does have some issues.
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2006-10-31, 17:40
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Link #33 | |
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Am I bad? Yes... Very X(
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 41
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2006-10-31, 18:07
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Link #34 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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And this talk about God....eh, Light is not God, but Kira his public facade is supposed to be a God-like figure that delivers justice. God and God-like is pretty different to me. Even then Light who pretends to be Kira (this God of Justice) is still human and so will make mistakes. Besides, who's to say that gods can't make mistakes...Kira may attempt to only kill criminals...but he might still kill people who are innocent. In the same way, the judge and jury can make mistakes about people and say an innocent is guilty. In the end, no one has the right to judge who is "guilty" or who is "innocent" as someone said before since values differ from person to person and from place to place, and likewise the same can be said about who is a "criminal" and who isn't. But if no one does that, if no one judges, then we will have a society without laws...since there will be no criminals and no innocent people. If there are no laws, there may be chaos and everyone can do whatever they want...even if laws are imperfect, arguably, they are still necessary to ensure order. A lesser evil if you will. |
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2006-10-31, 18:24
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Link #35 |
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Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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It's funny for you to mention Castro, when Light is the epitome of the violent revolutionary; he and those who attempt to reforge society in the crucible of war and dispose of all those who oppose the new order are doing pretty much the same thing. He's just less traditional in his methods. And somehow his methods and arrogance, lack of sacrifice combined with absolute belief in both his ability to realize his ends and the righteousness of doing so make him especially repugnant to me.
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2006-10-31, 18:39
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Link #36 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Just a Suggestion. Since the topic - Morality in Death Note? Do the ends justify the means? I think it would be better for people who have read the whole series to judge. If you have only read a lil or half then judge the morality or some characters it might not be a good thing. And when other people reply it they might use some examples from the series to support their point which u havent read yet.
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2006-10-31, 19:05
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Link #37 |
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~ You're dead ^__^* ~
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: uk, England
Age: 34
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Light thinks that he is doing the right thing in his own opinion but inreality who is he to judge people? by killing off criminals, light himself has become tainted...its like yea light can judge people...but who is going to be the one to judge light? God? then one can also argue who is the one to judge God? and so on in an endless cycle...
tbh what goes around comes around (twice as hard in some cases) and its better to leave things like fate/destiny to judge the outcome...by breaking this chain and intentionally killing off criminals Light is becoming erm..."evil?" he might be doing the world some good but he is hurting himself...hence "he who uses the death note cannot go to either heaven or hell" this leads to L...so far all we know about him is that hes a detective...but good or bad? naturally he is catching criminals which is a good thing but is he using underhanded tactics that sacrafices people's lives? that we dont know yet...
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2006-10-31, 19:27
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Link #38 |
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1000 times better
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Surrounded by Mistery (cool isn't?)
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IMO, getting read of evil is a stupid thing. If evil is destroyed then "good" actions will no be able to be recognized, any action would be an action, just that. A world cant exist without good and evil.
But. I think that the end ALWAYS justify the means. However Raito is killing people, maybe some of them deserved it (yes I know that most of you would think that killing people is always, no matter what, wrong, but I will leave this as a posibility), and I dont think there is an end that could justify a mass murder, even a perfect world. In fact, I fear the posibility of a perfect world. I think that humans exist to perfect themselves, but then, what is "perfection"? God? WTF is god????? You dont know what a god is, you just guess what it is. So what when we get perfection? We will dissapear of course. We will not have anything else to do, we are perfect, we already did everything. But again, we dont know what a perfect world is. Raito thinks he knows that, and he's working to change the world. I may disagree with Raito's methods and with his ideal, but if I had the oportunity to change the world, I would certainly go for it. |
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2006-10-31, 23:00
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Link #39 | |
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Feldmarschall
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Houston
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A Unfortunately Long Disquisition Upon the Nature of Absolute Power
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But to further elaborate the Castro (and by extension, many oppressive regimes) connection: I am sure most people here only think of Castro and Cuba how they are today; a backward country without a free press where one man exerts an untrammeled power which cannot be limited by any action of the people under his rule. But look at history and see how Castro started: he led a rebellion against a very corrupt and brutish dictator (Batista) who had the support of the US government because Batista at least allowed US corporation more or less free reign to do as they liked in Cuba. Castro's revolutionaties followed Communism because they saw the injustices against the common people of Cuba by this untrammeled corporate power allied with police state authority. In their view, the ideal of Communism "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" represented the ideal and just organizing principle of society. (Admit it, it does sound nice, doesn't it? Many people guess that that quote is from Jesus, when asked about its origin.) But it goes wrong when the leaders, no matter how high their idealism, insist that only they know the right way and things must be done according to their will. In the end the old cliche about "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" is true. And in Cuba we see where this has degenerated to. This is true of so many other examples. Not to invoke Godwin's Law, but look at Nazi Germany. We see Hitler's ideology as the epitome of evil, but in his own view he was doing good. In his twisted view, he really believed that Jews were at the root of all of Germany's and the world's problems. So if they could only be gotten rid of, society would be peaceful and prosperous. Isn't that the ideal of justice? Look at the Soviet Union. The Bolshevik revolution was an uprising of the common peasant Serfs against an absolutist Russian monarchy and aristocracy that had brutally opressed them for generations. Again, they saw the concentration of wealth and power in an elite few nobles as the root of the evil that was done to the serfs, and so the obvious counterweight would be to make sure that no one could accumulate so much wealth. Again, in their view the answer to this was communism, that the private accumulation of wealth, and the power that accompanies it, must be outlawed. Accomplish this "just" theoretical goal, however, in practice meant the arrest and murder of people who had large accumulations of wealth and land, or who would support the return of the old regime. To carry out such purges and protect the revolution against those who would overthrow it, more power was accumulated in the hands of Communist Party leaders, culminating in the dictatorship of Josef Stalin, who saw any threat (real or imagined) as a danger to the state which needed to be eliminated. So millions of peasant farmers who resided outside his control in the countryside had to be rounded up and put on state run farms where they could be monitored. Military and party leaders who might question his policies were to be eliminated, because he alone would guarantee the security of the Soviet Union and the success of the Revolution. The same kind of thing is true in revolutionary France, Khmer Rouge Cambodia, Islamic theocracies like Iran, and on and on. It is always, always, in the name of the highest ideals of justice that the worst crimes are committed: ideals that are so high and noble that they can only be reached by standing on mountains of dead children. Now look at Light Yagami. (to get back to the topic) Now I've only seen the first 4 episodes subbed and never read the manga, so I can only draw conclusions based on that. But by the end of episode 4 Light is planning to kill the FBI agent that has been tailing him: a man who has committed no crime, and who probably has a wife and family. Why? Because Light is bringing justice to the world, and only he shall decide what is right, and that ideal is too important to let anyone else interfere with. Also earlier, he killed the false L on the TV broadcast without knowing anything about the person. The phony was said to be a condemned murder, but for all Light knew this man could also have a family, and was working in his own way toward what he saw as justice. When anyone has an unassailable power, no matter how good their intentions, it is very very dangerous. I have thought of this question with regard to other anime and fantasy as well. Often I've heard people muse "Wouldn't it be cool if we had alchemy like FMA?" or "It would be great to be a wizard like Harry Potter!" I immediately react that both these things would be disasters for a very simple reason: in both these cases it seems that people endowed with these magic/alchemic abilities have them from birth. In Harry Potter world, it doesn't matter how hard you work or study, if you're born a "muggle" you will never have magical ability. It's a little less clear for FMA, but it doesn't seem to me that, say, Sheska the librarian could go off and gain alchemic ability just by studying. Sheska has read every alchemy book in the State Library, so shouldn't she be able to do at least as much alchemy as Ed and Al in the start of the series? Yet she doesn't. It seems that alchemic ability is something you're born with. And if that's the case, then a world where people have these powers is one where people would be saddled with a natural aristocracy more absolute and pernicious than the worst of the Russian nobility. As with the Ishbalans, if you were a member of a group of "undesirables" in such a world, you would have no recourse to protect your most basic rights if you didn't have alchemic or magic powers. People often ignorantly bash science saying "Science gives us the atom bomb, or global warming!" But anyone can become a scientist or engineer, or a leader in our democracy, if they are willing to study and work hard enough. So any group that feels its rights are being threatened have a recourse to push back. It is this ability of people to "push back" that prevents the worst abuses of power. But how can anyone "push back" against Light Yagami? Even if his motives (stop crime) may seem good, he is in the end human, and therefore fallible. Can we be sure that all the people he has killed are guilty? How many people on death row in the USA have been released thanks to the development of DNA evidence that proves their innocence years after their initial convictions? If they had been executed (by lethal injection or by Death Note) it would not be possible to recitfy this injustice. How would one appeal a death sentence by Kira? There is no way to ring up and say "Hey, they've got the wrong guy in this case!" And if his plan to kill that FBI agent continues, then likely anybody who tried to rise up and say publicly that Kira had gotten the wrong man would certainly be kacked too, for the crime of instilling doubt in the minds of the public about the honor and justice being served by Kira. In the end Kira poses a far greater threat than anything he is acting against. In the end he will likely have to kill more and more people who might question his actions publicly or who are trying to stop him. There is a reason that our founders tried to set up system of checks and balances and the rule of law instead of the rule of men: no one person or branch of government should be able to attain this kind of unassailable power. That's why it seems to me that the most likable character in this show so far is Ryuk.
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2006-10-31, 23:02
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Link #40 | |
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lol whut?
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Well, let me take a very very cynical approach here using statistics. By the logic of human mortality, killing is evil. So, what exactly does killing do? It reduces the number of human beings. So, are unmarried people evil? After all, they didn't give birth to their fair share of children, constituting the logic that the number of human beings is reduced. Then, let's say that no one is ever killed and not a single population control policy is enforced. The population on earth booms so much that the whole world dies of global warming. 12 million people died in World War II, an event to which we call atrocity. But when every family produces an extra child, the birth can easily exceed the death. Moreover, Europe gains greater stability (discounting the cold war tension) and many people are introduced with this concept called democracy. What am I getting here? So, can Light bring about stability of the world with the sacrifice of a few thousand? In the long haul, doesn't he save more lives? That's all theory in his head, anyway. But he endeavors to change the world with good intent. Do you spite a child who tries to bake a cake on mother's day but ends up burning it? the kid tried, even if he wasted the ingredients to bake the cake. |
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