High School DxD Light Novel - Character power-ups, match-ups, and ratings

[Gaizafaiz]

@Chris38 He can do both. BxB then CxC or straight to CxC.

[DragonOsman]

^Yes, he can already go into the True Queen form both ways.

Also, Chris38, it's a mistake to think it's already been mastered (True Queen, I mean). If you think about it, for it to be mastered, the True Queen has to be equal to Ddraig in raw power. Right now it isn't, so it's not even complete yet, let alone mastered. It's only at or a bit above Maou-class, while Ddraig is way above Maou-class - by leaps and bounds. And one more correction: True Queen's improvements were due to the Dragon Deification itself, not just the Pseudo Dragon Deification.

And yes, like Lucidrago said, he can give the Balance Breaker armor to the girls because of the red Wyverns. It's the same thing as Crimson Extinct Dragonar for Rias.

And Balance Breaker wasn't replaced by the True Queen form at all, he still has access to both. He just doesn't have much of a reason to use the normal Balance Breaker that much because, like Lucidrago said, his enemies are strong enough that it requires the True Queen form or above to beat them.

[Lucidrago]

When was it ever said that CCQ was going to be at Heavenly-Dragon level when mastered? Just because it was Issei's alternative to JD? When was it ever said it'd ever reach that level? CCQ was Issei's alternative to JD. His alternative to getting stronger besides using JD. It never said it would be at the same level as JD or above that. DxD is still powerful but has been nerfed. As it was Heavenly Dragon-level before being nerfed. It is still pretty powerful but not as powerful as it was before. There are steps to things. CCQ won't be reaching Heavenly Dragon-level or else you're going to break the power scaling of the series. DxD>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CCQ. Let's just say that CCQ becomes HD-level. And let's say unnerfed DxD mode is 10x stronger than CCQ. If CCQ becomes HD-level, then that would be kind of making Issei in CCQ stronger than current Ophis in DxD. Which I really don't see. Can you provide me a quote of it saying that CCQ fully mastered would be at HD-level? It just seems you want to break the power scaling in this series.

[DragonOsman]

DxD G will always be above the True Queen form; when the True Queen form reaches Heavenly Dragon level, DxD G will become much more powerful than Heavenly Dragon level. Ise's current body was made from a part of Great Red's flesh and it also has some of Ophis's power, so theoretically he has the potential to reach Dragon God level. Plus, we already know that Ophis and Lilith will resonate and that that will complete DxD G mode. There are also forms coming up from Great Red and also from the combined form of Great Red and Ophis's powers.

And Ise's Juggernaut Drive was incomplete. That's why it wasn't Heavenly Dragon level. The completed form would've been Heavenly Dragon level. And the True Queen form is supposed to be an alternative path to Juggernaut Drive in general, not just Ise's incomplete Juggernaut Drive. And either way, Ise still hasn't completed the True Queen yet. It'll be Heavenly Dragon level when completed, otherwise it won't make sense. It's supposed to be Ise's strongest form before he starts to use Ophis's or Great Red's powers, which means it's his strongest with Ddraig's power. It won't make sense if it never reaches Ddraig's level of power.

[Lucidrago]

But what did Vali mean by incomplete? I would think it was incomplete in the sense that Issei was still in there over the negative emotions when he went JD. He was able to be saved because it was 'incomplete' in the sense that Issei was still in there and the grief over losing Asia was far stronger than those negative emotions. So they had a chance to get Issei out since Issei was still in there.

Like I said, give me a quote that has pointed to CCQ being at Ddraig's level of power. You can't just assume that CCQ fully mastered is Heavenly Dragon-level. That would break the power scaling of the series. Do we know if Issei's True Queen isn't completed? Because once Ishibumi gives Issei a power-up the one before is totally ignored. Again give me some concrete evidence of CCQ reaching HD-level.

[DragonOsman]

You really want to tell me that Juggernaut Drive wasn't supposed to be Heavenly Dragon level in its complete state? Seriously? It's the Heavenly Dragon equivalent of Breakdown the Beast, remember?

And again, like I said, it's common sense. And it won't completely break the power-scaling, at least not for Ise's forms, since DxD G will be completed whenever Ophis and Lilith decide to resonate. When DxD G is completed, it will become true Dragon Deification. Whether it's Dragon God level or not probably depends on how powerful the True Queen is, so if the True Queen reaches Heavenly Dragon level, DxD G mode will be Dragon God level. If True Queen is below Heavenly Dragon level, then DxD G mode will be around Heavenly Dragon level like in Volumes 20 and 21.

Also, again, the True Queen form is supposed to be Ise's strongest form when using only Ddraig's power, so it won't make sense if it's not Heavenly Dragon level when completed.

[Gaizafaiz]

I would not say that completed DxD will be dragon god level though. Maybe same level as Sirzech in his other form. Maybe.

[Chris38]

Originally Posted by Gaizafaiz

I would not say that completed DxD will be dragon god level though. Maybe same level as Sirzech in his other form. Maybe.

Maybe not at the level of a Dragon God but I think pretty close to it. After all Ise's body comes from Great Red and Ophis and he only had it for a few months so ... he definitely hasn't reached the full specs that this body could provide him with.

Compared to Sirzechs whose body underwent some kind of mutation ... but still was born from powerful but still ordinary Devils ... Ise's heritage is a lot more unique so IMO he's definitely going to surpass his brother in law ( in terms of power , since in terms of experience it's going to be pretty hard to catch up to someone who already lived at least a few hundred years )

@DragonOsman

Well, considering how Ishibumi portrays Ise's development I agree that Ise most likely hasn't reached the full potential of his CCQ form ... but it's definitely more stable then it was, before the developments with Ise's DD occurred.

But I doubt that we will see Ise reach his full potential in this last arc ... but I hope we will see him reaching a complete understanding of the powers that are contained in his current body...

After all ... so far we have seen the abilities that come from Ophis ... and we still don't have any clues about the abilities that Ise could obtain from Great Red - apart from his Dragonfication - which I doubt is the only ability of Great Red that Ise is going to posses ...

[DragonOsman]

^Yeah, I agree here. We won't probably won't see him reach his full power in this series. We'll need a sequel for that.

And even if he doesn't reach Dragon God level, the potential is definitely there. His current body is made from a part of Great Red's flesh and some of Ophis's power, after all.

[Lucidrago]

@Osman I'm still waiting for the quote or some hard evidence that CCQ will be at HD-level. Because it just said that was his alternative to JD. It never said it would be as powerful as JD. JD was just a forceful releasing of Ddraig's and Albion's power at the cost of the possessor's live and they would go berserk. But where did it confirm that CCQ will be HD-level. Now his CCQ might be close to completion now. Next people are going to want Issei to be Satan-class without using his Boosted Gear or Ophis' and GR's power. Now you guys are jumping to conclusions about CCQ. And are kind of overestimating it. It's very, very far-fetched that it'll even reach HD-level in my opinion. Unless someone can provide hard proof of CCQ reaching HD-level. Because while it's stronger than Issei's Balance Breaker the gap wouldn't be that large. Would people want Issei in Balance Breaker to be that strong like in the Top 20 or Top 30. Because they would just throw the power scaling off. This isn't DBZ. And Ishibumi doesn't want to make it that way.

[DragonOsman]

It makes no sense, what you're saying. Ise has to master Ddraig's power before he masters his current body's power. And for that, completed True Queen has to be at the same level as Ddraig. And DxD G mode when completed will be true Dragon Deification. And you don't need to worry about power-scaling. We might not actually see it happen within DxD itself, after all. But even if we do it's still fine because there are still people as strong as or stronger than him even if he reaches Dragon God level. Great Red and also beings from the other world (Melvazoa is said to be on the same level as Great Red).

If Ise doesn't reach Heavenly Dragon level in True Queen mode, it won't make any sense. Try to think about it. I've always assumed Ise would reach Heavenly Dragon level in that form at some point, and I'm also not the only one who made that assumption. I don't mean to use mob mentality on you, but still. This is the first time someone did this so I was taken by surprise to be honest.

Juggernaut Drive is Heavenly Dragon level and Cardinal Crimson Queen and Emperio Juggernaut Overdrive are meant to be alternatives to it. Not only that, but in Volume 7 it was said that if Ise and Vali were to use Juggernaut Drive, they could beat Fenrir who at the time was stated to be Heavenly Dragon level. And it's actually been said that Cardinal Crimson Queen and Emperio Juggernaut Overdrive can surpass Juggernaut Drive. Xenovia said it to Ise in Volume 19.

For Fenrir and Juggernaut Drive:

Originally Posted by Volume 7 Life 2

A real monster which has power surpassing that of its father. What I heard was that it has a power on par with the Two Heavenly Dragons before they were sealed, and even Sensei and oldman Tannin can’t beat it one on one.
Of course me and Vali who can’t pull out the full power of the Two Heavenly Dragons are no match for him.
Apparently by using Juggernaut-Drive we will have a chance to defeat it, but I will die if I use it, and Vali will end up using his demonic-powers and won’t last long enough to fight Loki. If it goes wrong Vali will also use his lifespan and die.

For when Xenovia said that to Ise in Volume 19:

Originally Posted by Volume 19 Life 2

Xenovia held my face with both her hands. She was probably imitating Sister Griselda whom she admired.
“…Yes. Ise, you’ve found your own path, to surpass Juggernaut Drive. I need to discover my path….”

I'll have to find the part where Sirzechs said it to Vali.

You can't say that Ishibumi doesn't want to do it. If he didn't want to, he wouldn't have written it like this.

It might take Ise a long time to have the True Queen reach that level, but it'll still happen eventually. We just don't know when.

[B214]

Actually after checking again, there's really nothing that indicates JD = Heavenly Dragon class. The closest i found is that the JD unlocks hidden power of a Sacred Gear with creatures in it. Probably referring to things like [Longinus Smasher].

“No, there exists nothing above Balance Breaker. The ultimate and final form of Sacred Gears is the Balance Breaker. However, there are several things inside Sacred Gear that have a magical being sealed in them. A peculiar restraint is applied on those ones. Your Boosted Gear and Vali’s Divine Dividing are examples of that.”

I see. Mine and his Sacred Gear are the type whose power comes from having a magical being—in other words, a dragon sealed inside it.

“Those ones are strongly restrained, taking out power while in that state and making sure that the host can use it. In the case of the Sacred Gears of the Sekiryuutei and the Hakuryuukou, forcing that restraint to temporarily release and unleashing the sealed power is the [Juggernaut Drive]. It temporarily gives one power rivalling that of God, but the risk is also huge. It greatly shaves off one’s lifespan. And it also makes one lose their sense of reason.”

[DragonOsman]

There's another quote from Volume 7:

“They say that the families and people close to the past possessors have become unfortunate due to the curse. That’s why if you eliminate the curse……the negative feelings, then instead of the [Juggernaut-Drive], I made the logic that you might be able to attain a power that rivals [Juggernaut-Drive] without trimming your life. For that, you have to go deep into the consciousness of the Sacred Gear and release the thoughts of past Sekiryuutei’s from their negative feelings.“They say that the families and people close to the past possessors have become unfortunate due to the curse. That’s why if you eliminate the curse……the negative feelings, then instead of the [Juggernaut-Drive], I made the logic that you might be able to attain a power that rivals [Juggernaut-Drive] without trimming your life. For that, you have to go deep into the consciousness of the Sacred Gear and release the thoughts of past Sekiryuutei’s from their negative feelings.

And saying that Juggernaut Drive can defeat a being that's said to be equal in power to the Two Heavenly Dragons should already be enough to say it's at Heavenly Dragon level, not to mention the fact that it's even said to temporarily release the full power of the sealed being in exchange for shaving off the user's lifespan. Juggernaut Drive is the Heavenly Dragon Sacred Gear equivalent of Breakdown the Beast so there shouldn't be any doubt about that. And then True Queen and Emperio Juggernaut Overdrive are alternatives to Juggernaut Drive that can rival it without trimming the user's life. If what Xenovia said is to be believed, though, then the True Queen can even surpass Juggernaut Drive.

[Chris38]

On the topic of Juggernaut Drive, I also think that we haven't seen a complete version of it - which equals to the HD power level.

After all Ise's JD has been stated in the novels to be an incomplete version and I think that Vali's JD has been an incomplete version as well...

The reason why I think that's the case:

1.) Vali used his own demonic power reserves to sustain JD and avoid trimming his lifespan - I doubt that he has enough demonic power to sustain a power that is above the level of a God.

2.) He was capable of reverting from that form which, based upon this quote below from volume 6 has been implied to be impossible if he entered a complete JD.

“Since it isn't a complete Juggernaut Drive there would be cases where he can revert, but there will also be a case where he remains like this, trimming his life and die. Either way, staying like this for long would put Hyoudou Issei's life in danger.”

[B214]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

There's another quote from Volume 7:


And saying that Juggernaut Drive can defeat a being that's said to be equal in power to the Two Heavenly Dragons should already be enough to say it's at Heavenly Dragon level, not to mention the fact that it's even said to temporarily release the full power of the sealed being in exchange for shaving off the user's lifespan. Juggernaut Drive is the Heavenly Dragon Sacred Gear equivalent of Breakdown the Beast so there shouldn't be any doubt about that. And then True Queen and Emperio Juggernaut Overdrive are alternatives to Juggernaut Drive that can rival it without trimming the user's life. If what Xenovia said is to be believed, though, then the True Queen can even surpass Juggernaut Drive.

That quote of your didn't say the Juggernaut Drive can defeat a being that is equal to the Two Heavenly Dragon. It only said that Ise could attain a power that rivals the JD without the negative emotion. If you're referring to Vali defeating Fenrir, who's a Heavenly Dragon-class monster, don't forget Vali had the advantage of using Gleipnir as well.

I was an obedient son of my father Loki,—no, I was turning into his slave, I was nothing more or nothing less. I simply obeyed my father’s order; I tore apart my opponents, and bit them into pieces. That’s because I believed that was my purpose in life.

However, the one who changed that principle using the magical chain Gleipnir, Excalibur Ruler, and Juggernaut Drive is Vali.

So Vali didn't beat a full power Fenrir, he used the JD on a restricted battle not to mention Vali even teleported elsewhere which may have given him further advantage.

“Kuroka! Transfer me and Fenrir to the allocated place!”

Vali who is glowing with light commands that to Kuroka. Kuroka also smiles hearing that, and directs her hand at Vali, then starts to move her fingers in the air. If I look carefully, Vali’s armour started to change. Is it an effect from using [Juggernaut Drive]? So the armour starts to change like that, huh.

[DragonOsman]

I'm talking about the quote from before. Vali probably needed Gleipnir to hold him in place, but look at this:

A real monster which has power surpassing that of its father. What I heard was that it has a power on par with the Two Heavenly Dragons before they were sealed, and even Sensei and oldman Tannin can’t beat it one on one.

Of course me and Vali who can’t pull out the full power of the Two Heavenly Dragons are no match for him.
Apparently by using Juggernaut-Drive we will have a chance to defeat it, but I will die if I use it, and Vali will end up using his demonic-powers and won’t last long enough to fight Loki. If it goes wrong Vali will also use his lifespan and die.

This is also from Volume 7, and it says Ise and Vali will have to chance at beating Fenrir if they used Juggernaut Drive. Please don't ignore quotes I've brought in earlier.

Either way, the True Queen which is meant to be an alternative to Juggernaut Drive will rival Juggernaut Drive in power when completed. It might even surpass it. But the catch is that we might not actually see it within this series.

[B214]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

I'm talking about the quote from before. Vali probably needed Gleipnir to hold him in place, but look at this:


This is also from Volume 7, and it says Ise and Vali will have to chance at beating Fenrir if they used Juggernaut Drive. Please don't ignore quotes I've brought in earlier.

Either way, the True Queen which is meant to be an alternative to Juggernaut Drive will rival Juggernaut Drive in power when completed. It might even surpass it. But the catch is that we might not actually see it within this series.

I'm not saying saying the CCQ won't rival the JD, i'm saying JD = Heavenly Dragon-class isn't a valid claim like we previously said it is. Besides if the JD unlocks the Heavenly Dragon's true power then they would have unlocked [Reflect], [Penetrate], [Venom] and others already.

[Lucidrago]

Yeah we have no idea how much of Ddraig's and Albion's power is brought out in JD. It said it forcefully released the full power of the Two Heavenly Dragons. But God sealed them in the Boosted Gear and sealed most of their power. And plus the possessors weren't Ddraig and Albion. They were merely using Ddraig's and Albion's power through BG and DD. So JD=Heavenly Dragon-class isn't really confirmed. It might have been really powerful but it isn't really confirmed that it's at the same level Ddraig and Albion were when they had their bodies. No one's saying JD isn't powerful. But saying JD is HD-class is skeptical at best. Remember that possessors forcefully releasing Ddraig's and Albion's full power doesn't equate to Ddraig and Albion themselves in their primes. And just because you're stronger than someone doesn't mean that you can't be beaten by someone below you. Fenrir might have been stronger than Vali in JD, but because of the Glepnir he was able to come out on top.

And how could a teenager know how one form could potentially be as strong as Juggernaut Drive? No offense but Ishibumi loves to overhype. And plus listen to the people it's coming from. Sure Issei is supposed to know how strong this form can become. I didn't know he could see into the future. If it came from someone like Azazel, Indra, or Shiva then it would have some validity to it. But tell me. How are teenagers supposed to know how strong a form can become? Don't take Ishibumi at his word.

@Osman And what I meant by 'incomplete' was that it wasn't about the power level of JD but about Issei still being in there when he was supposed to lose himself and drown himself in the negative emotions and go berserk. But yet he was still in there mourning for Asia and that's why they were able to get him out because that grief was far stronger than those negative emotions. If it was a complete JD, then Issei would have lost himself and go berserk. That's what I believed Vali meant.

[DragonOsman]

And I'm saying it's probably both of those things.

And anyway, God sealed Ddraig and Albion's powers, but he left a way to unlock the power. He did leave behind a way to unlock the abilities, like Reflect and Penetrate, so there should also be a way to completely release their original power - which is where Juggernaut Drive came in, albeit with a huge risk. And Ise was told by credible sources in Volume 7 that if he and Vali used Juggernaut Drive, they'd be able to defeat Fenrir. Normally it couldn't be done because they can't bring out Ddraig and Albion's full power outside of Juggernaut Drive, but in Juggernaut Drive that power is temporarily released. And Fenrir, Ddraig and Albion focus mainly on raw power, so of course someone stronger than Fenrir can defeat it. Gleipnir was used to subdue it and hold it in place, so the power shouldn't be reduced unless I'm forgetting something.

Do keep in mind that, like I keep saying, Juggernaut Drive is the Heavenly Dragon Sacred Gear equivalent of Breakdown the Beast. Breakdown the Beast releases the full power of the sealed creature, and in the same vein, Juggernaut Drive releases the full power of the Two Heavenly Dragons. And the other quote I brought in Volume 7:

They say that the families and people close to the past possessors have become unfortunate due to the curse. That’s why if you eliminate the curse……the negative feelings, then instead of the [Juggernaut-Drive], I made the logic that you might be able to attain a power that rivals [Juggernaut-Drive] without trimming your life. For that, you have to go deep into the consciousness of the Sacred Gear and release the thoughts of past Sekiryuutei’s from their negative feelings.

And Chris38, this is from Volume 7 Life 4 about Vali's Juggernaut Drive:

I was told from Sensei that Vali is able to use his demonic-power in replacement for his lifespan to use Juggernaut Drive for a short time…… But I was also told that he can’t use it perfectly. Most likely there is a thin line between being berserk, and there might be a danger that it would reduce his lifespan.

Vali's also isn't perfect, but there's still a danger of him going berserk and his lifespan being shortened. He's in a similar situation to Ise, but he can somewhat hang in there because of his greater amount of Demonic Power.

But this could be why Vali needed to use other things to beat Fenrir aside from Juggernaut Drive as well - it's because his also isn't perfect. If it was, he would probably have been able to defeat Fenrir with just Juggernaut Drive.

Also, another thing; I'll find quotes later, but I definitely remember reading about Illegal Move: Triaina and True Queen when Triaina was first unlocked in Kyoto that it releases Ddraig's original power, similar to Juggernaut Drive but without the negative emotions and other things tainting it. It's incomplete, though, which is why Ise still can't get all of Ddraig's full power when using it. But when it's completed, he'll have access to Ddraig's full power. That's the end result of mastering the Triaina and True Queen.

[B214]

I'm too lazy to argue much but i still don't think JD = Heavenly Dragon class. It feels more like JD = Boosted Gear or Divine Dividing's true potential. For one Longinus Smasher isn't in Ddraig's list of move. It's like BG & DD uses 10% of Ddraig and Albion's power, JD uses >10% but not 100%.