Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[CapoExecutor]

Originally Posted by ChrissieXD

Not necessarily. It is quite possible that the Lord of Guze that contracted her was not interested in becoming a Tomogara. After all, to just be born in the world should require a tremendous amount of POE for any Tomogara, and then they have to maintain their existance.

Or they could just synthesize a body out of the natural elements through a process called spontaneous generation and infuse their souls into a new corporeal form that matches their desired appearance but doesn't need PoE for sustenance.

[DeotoxSlayer]

Originally Posted by Whitemoon648

I belive so. He was able to fix disturbances in a huge area. He probably is not a strong fighter though. Remember all flame hazes were Tomogaras in the begining . There are diffrent kind of them. We have the fighter type like Sabrac, and techno guy like mad professor. I doubt the Prof. can acctually fight. Probably the same concept is at work here.

This wasn't mentioned in the anime(and it won't be mentioned) but the reason that Sabrac Glared at Dantilion at the begginning of episode 22 was because before joining Balle Masque Dantilion fought Sabrac, and he stole his favourite sword, and turned it into a drill...which would mean Dantilion is powerful enough to hold his own against Sabrac....which is kinda scary.

[vorpal83]

People are good at different things. Kazumi is not a fighter. Yuji demonstrated good tactical sense and clearheadedness from the start, even if his courage and skills lagged behind em.

Kazumi's demonstrated absolutely nothing that even hints that she'd be good in a fight. That makes her a liability, and liabilities don't belong in a fight. Back when I was in the Army, we transferred liabilities to HQ as soon as possible, cos liabilities get squads killed.

[lua thien]

Originally Posted by CapoExecutor

Or they could just synthesize a body out of the natural elements through a process called spontaneous generation and infuse their souls into a new corporeal form that matches their desired appearance but doesn't need PoE for sustenance.

That would be complicating, considering on how spontaneous generation would require a long period of complex buildup in order to get the corporeal form needed. No one has that much patience to wait anyways.

Anyways, is there really evidence that the season will stop at 24 episodes? Surely, it can't be based on the number of episodes that composed the first season. There should be some concrete evidence supporting that at least. The second season might get a bit of an expansion

[grey_moon]

I don't think Pheles would ever give up her physical form for Yoshida to become a flame haze, just for the simple fact she didn't do it for the person she loves the most. But then again this show hasn't been consistent with characters so I wouldn't put it past them...

[ashlay]

honestly, it wouldn't even be a good idea for pheles to become a backer for a flame haze. Her power has never been from the fact she's got a massive power of existence like Sabrac, Alastor, etc., it's that she's highly intelligent and skilled when it comes to things like unrestricted methods.

giving control up to someone else would waste half her potential.

[vorpal83]

Not just that, Pheles's end goal is to physically be with Johan. She won't ever give up her own body unless it would save him, but even for an anime, it's unlikely.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

*sigh* People just have WAY to high expectations after season 1, there is just no way to satisfy everyone. If they make a slower episode, people are coming out asking for more fights. If they make an action episode, they come out and complain about Yoshida Kazumi.

I think that there's largely two groups of Shakugan no Shana fans (that's the impression I get from this board, anyway).

The first group are into Shana largely for the action elements of the show, which makes sense since Shakugan no Shana has outstanding graphics, and often wonderful action scenes.

If you take both seasons together, Shakugan no Shana is principly an action anime.


However, Shakugan no Shana has always had a significant slice-of-life/school-life aspect to it.

So, Shakugan no Shana appeals largely to action anime fans, and slice-of-life anime fans (particularly slice-of-life anime fans who like to have some action with their slice-of-life material).

Shakugan no Shana's action anime fans were ticked off quite a bit by the long string of slice-of-life episodes involving Konoe. Shakugan no Shana's slice-of-life fans naturally didn't mind it that much.

I also think that Kazumi has become a bit of a lightning rod for Shakugan no Shana's action anime fans (and not just hardcore Yuji-Shana shippers, as you'd expect).

Kazumi represents the slice-of-life aspect of the Shakugan no Shana anime better than any other character does, since her continued presence keeps the romance unresolved, she plays a much more instrumental role in slice-of-life episodes than in action episodes, and she's pretty much useless in combat situations.

For a long time, I couldn't quite get the Kazumi hate, but now I think I see where a lot of it is coming from - she's the character that both limits the action (i.e. fighting), and distracts from it, the most.

Speaking personally, I often like good slice-of-life episodes, even though action episodes are my preferance. That's probably why Kazumi doesn't bug me the way she does some Shakugan no Shana fans.

[vorpal83]

Don't get me wrong, I actually do like slice of life stuff. It's just that when the anime started off with a few dozen innocent bystanders killed off for real, including kids and girls, you tend to expect something.

[Whitemoon648]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

And a whole lot of steps behind as far as suitable personality and motivation for such a task goes.

That aside, i am not even sure where this "debate" comes from, as i don't believe there is anything at all to indicate that Kazumi actually would have a chance of becoming one.

Its only a possible theory. I mean all of the Flame hazes have a hogu that defines them as one. And the one Yoshida is holding looks similar to such a thing. And One such as pheles, ( aka eternal lover) would not just destroy or kill another person ( Yoshida in this case) like her.

Originally Posted by DeotoxSlayer

This wasn't mentioned in the anime(and it won't be mentioned) but the reason that Sabrac Glared at Dantilion at the begginning of episode 22 was because before joining Balle Masque Dantilion fought Sabrac, and he stole his favourite sword, and turned it into a drill...which would mean Dantilion is powerful enough to hold his own against Sabrac....which is kinda scary.

WOW . thats a suprise. Hard to imagine.


Well interesting to know *_*. Thanks for the info .

Originally Posted by ashlay

honestly, it wouldn't even be a good idea for pheles to become a backer for a flame haze. Her power has never been from the fact she's got a massive power of existence like Sabrac, Alastor, etc., it's that she's highly intelligent and skilled when it comes to things like unrestricted methods.

giving control up to someone else would waste half her potential.

It was stated in anime that she is one of the strongest ( or was) Tomogaras in history. That was untill she stopped consuming POE from regular humen. She became weaker upon ending her POE gatherings. Even one of her image was able to pawn Shana easily. She has the potential to become monster like, sabrac and alastor ( upon gathering POE) and also is abled with Unrestriced methods( based on anime) .

But yeah, Kazumi would probably waste her potential, not by half but by at least 90 percent. Kazumi is indeed useless.

[ReinhartX]

in the end yuji chooses hecate!!! i kinda saw that coming lolx.....

[Mukki]

Originally Posted by ChrissieXD

Think about that story in like episode 9 about Margery's past. That boy was very similar in that you wouldn't see him fighting, even with his personality.

That's why he's dead.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Whitemoon648

It was stated in anime that she is one of the strongest ( or was) Tomogaras in history. That was untill she stopped consuming POE from regular humen. She became weaker upon ending her POE gatherings. Even one of her image was able to pawn Shana easily. She has the potential to become monster like, sabrac and alastor ( upon gathering POE) and also is abled with Unrestriced methods( based on anime) .

But yeah, Kazumi would probably waste her potential, not by half but by at least 90 percent. Kazumi is indeed useless.

like I said, she was able to kick Shana silly because she was using an unrestricted method. Heck, she never even used her flames to attack with, just bare hands.

She'll never have flame powers at the level of Sabrac's giant sword filled flame wave or Shana/Alastor being able to burn a portion of the city in one shot. Her strength isn't in her PoE, it's in how she uses it in conjunction with Hougu and Unrestricted methods, things she's unparalleled at. (well, not as good as Rammy for type two, but better at applying them in battle situations)

[teelotes]

Originally Posted by ReinhartX

in the end yuji chooses hecate!!! i kinda saw that coming lolx.....

Hecate saves the day, always. I wonder what Christmas present she has for him this time. Hopefully not another dinner by the fountain of PoE.

[teelotes]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that there's largely two groups of Shakugan no Shana fans (that's the impression I get from this board, anyway).

The first group are into Shana largely for the action elements of the show, which makes sense since Shakugan no Shana has outstanding graphics, and often wonderful action scenes.

If you take both seasons together, Shakugan no Shana is principly an action anime.


However, Shakugan no Shana has always had a significant slice-of-life/school-life aspect to it.

So, Shakugan no Shana appeals largely to action anime fans, and slice-of-life anime fans (particularly slice-of-life anime fans who like to have some action with their slice-of-life material).

Shakugan no Shana's action anime fans were ticked off quite a bit by the long string of slice-of-life episodes involving Konoe. Shakugan no Shana's slice-of-life fans naturally didn't mind it that much.

I also think that Kazumi has become a bit of a lightning rod for Shakugan no Shana's action anime fans (and not just hardcore Yuji-Shana shippers, as you'd expect).

Kazumi represents the slice-of-life aspect of the Shakugan no Shana anime better than any other character does, since her continued presence keeps the romance unresolved, she plays a much more instrumental role in slice-of-life episodes than in action episodes, and she's pretty much useless in combat situations.

For a long time, I couldn't quite get the Kazumi hate, but now I think I see where a lot of it is coming from - she's the character that both limits the action (i.e. fighting), and distracts from it, the most.

Speaking personally, I often like good slice-of-life episodes, even though action episodes are my preferance. That's probably why Kazumi doesn't bug me the way she does some Shakugan no Shana fans.

Instead of separating the two genres, I'll say that the action scenes here lack emotions, and the slice-of-life part lacks excitement. You can't have either of each independently, and that's why this series (up till now) fails.

But it's starting to look like the studio works better with anime original material. Maybe they should just write an anime themselves.

[CapoExecutor]

Originally Posted by teelotes

Hecate saves the day, always. I wonder what Christmas present she has for him this time. Hopefully not another dinner by the fountain of PoE.

Hecate saves the day only for herself at the expense of everyone else.
Perhaps it could something like: "Merry Christmas because what's yours is now mine! And what's mine is mine!"

[Owaranai Destiny]

This episode is probably one of those for which SnS is somewhat renowned for: the 'Calm before the Storm' episodes. Everything seems relatively calmed down, though with a sense of foreboding mostly at the beginning of the episode, then having the shit hit the fan at the end of it.

While not an absolutely fabulous episode, it was not something that you would tear your hair out for. Apologies for those unable to see that.

Anyway, I was particularly struck by the irony in the comments by Yuuji's father. Wanting him to 'live as long as possible', while in fact Yuuji has already died and "lives" an immortal existence out currently. That's going to be endangered, though, judging by how the episode ends.

To J.C Animation's credit, although the pattern is somewhat similar to that in Season 1 with Balle Masque, they did a good job by diluting the key antagonists'-Balle Masque's-intentions with cryptic comments, terms known only to the Denizens and foreshadowing. Even if deemed repetitive, it was effective in throwing a curveball near the end by having them appear suddenly and without warning. This episode served that purpose well, all things considered.

Another thing I like about this episode is that while seemingly normal, it seemed to hold the theme of 'resolution' for the dudes of SnS. While Tanaka's issue is more or less resolved (otherwise we'll be seeing more of him again), Satou's isn't (hasn't called his father yet or more importantly, hasn't even been able to get to Outlaw), Ike's isn't (even though he finally picked his balls back up to confess, Kazumi hasn't answered him) while Yuuji is still discovering more about himself and his real intentions between protecting the city and leaving the city with Shana, thus strengthening his resolution to protect the city.

Wilhelmina's concern was understandable, and you know at once that she's being somewhat childish and stubborn particularly because of her own experiences, just like a concerned single mother who had gone through a particuarly stormy marriage might when her daughter tells her that she's going to get married early. At that moment, it just seemed to me like the Ous were the parents, and their Flame Haze their children. Alastor has more or less given consent, while Tiamat urges Wilhelmina to understand.

"Everyone has changed". I like that. In case anyone failed to notice, as much as Yuuji was the person who probably changed her the most in terms of understanding the 'normal human world', Kazumi played a big role in her metamorphosis as well, as being a rival and friend.

IMO, the funny moments weren't really amazing humorous, but enough to get a chuckle or two out. Despite being extremely analytical, it seems that Yuuji's still a little slow in the certain matters. Besides that, I rather like the reactions coming from Chigusa, Kantarou, Yuuji, Kazumi and Alastor. Typical, perhaps, but enjoyable nonetheless.

Any idea (aside from the Sairei no Hebi possibility from the novels) about what might happen, and what kind of a 'secret weapon' Balle Masque is going to uncover? As far as the anime is concerned, they might pull off another original, or leave it on a cliffhanger (as many people have feared) to make a Season 3 based on OVAs.

[Whitemoon648]

Originally Posted by ashlay

like I said, she was able to kick Shana silly because she was using an unrestricted method. Heck, she never even used her flames to attack with, just bare hands.

She'll never have flame powers at the level of Sabrac's giant sword filled flame wave or Shana/Alastor being able to burn a portion of the city in one shot. Her strength isn't in her PoE, it's in how she uses it in conjunction with Hougu and Unrestricted methods, things she's unparalleled at. (well, not as good as Rammy for type two, but better at applying them in battle situations)

Well she only used only bare hands, probably because she( might have been?_ was limited on the POE. You see how easily in that state she stops Margery's blast with one her copies. She might not ( or might i dono) have the potential to have as much as Sabrac in terms of POE, But if she had not stopped consuming POE, then she would have ( might have?) easily match likes of sabrac.


But then again, i guess its one of those things that unless we could see a battle against them at their full powers, we wouldnt know. But i am going to stick with my theory that in a battle, Pheles vs sabrac it would be a 50/50 battle.


P.S. Its not like i dont trust you , But you just said She cant match likes of Sabrac/alastor in terms of having POE without any source. I mean how do you know that she cant? It has never been stated in anime that she cant. While in the anime there has few been hints that she can have huge amount of POE. One of the few hints was when it was stated that she could creat multiple copies of herself ( which could at the same time fight) and search a huge area with them. That alone requires a huge amount of POE. Think about it this way. If she cant have a huge amount of POE then how could she use such high level ( High POE consuming) Unrestricted spell in that horrible drained state?

[HayashiTakara]

Flame Hazes uses the PoE of their Lord of guze, all of Shana's powers are Alastors.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by teelotes

Instead of separating the two genres, I'll say that the action scenes here lack emotions, and the slice-of-life part lacks excitement. You can't have either of each independently, and that's why this series (up till now) fails.

But it's starting to look like the studio works better with anime original material. Maybe they should just write an anime themselves.

That's an interesting take on things. I think that there's at least some truth to your points. I personally found the Wilhelmina vs. Sabrac fight, and then the Wilhelmina/Shana vs. Sabrac fight later on, to be extremely well-choreographed and fun to watch. However, I have to admit that my emotional investment in it was pretty low, since there simply wasn't enough of a build-up (i.e. showing more background on Sabrac) for the fight.

Yuji vs. Zarovee was awesome to watch since it was very cool to see Yuji finally kick some butt, but it was a pretty one-sided fight of course.

What I find Shakugan no Shana does extremely well is cliff-hanger endings, and theatrical antagonists. The fights themselves are sometimes a bit too short, and/or lack good build-up.

I will admit that the slice-of-life segments often get far too repititive, which can lower the excitement for them, yeah.