|
View Poll Results: Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai NEXT - Episode 6 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 14 | 28.57% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 6 | 12.24% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 16 | 32.65% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 8 | 16.33% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 4 | 8.16% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 1 | 2.04% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools |
2013-02-17, 04:50 | Link #141 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Age: 38
|
Well the whole point of any anime or manga/novel is to evoke those strong feelings among the watchers/readers towards the characters whether positive or negative. In the end they want their product to be a success for which the author needs to have an entertaining bunch of characters. Just imagine how boring this particular series would be had it not been for Yozora's trolls.
__________________
|
2013-02-17, 05:08 | Link #142 | |||
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
|
Quote:
Quote:
As I have stated earlier, I don't believe you can put a 'benchmark' or 'standard' on this because it's highly subjective and personal. One can like or hate or be indifferent to any of the Neighbor Club's antics, and none of them are 'wrong'. While I don't wholly agree with frivolous' idea, I respect his trying to be impartial. Quote:
__________________
|
|||
2013-02-17, 06:17 | Link #144 | ||
My posts are frivolous
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 35
|
Quote:
The concept of an ordinary reasonable person is borrowed from a legal concept of the same name. Without delving too deeply into legal principles, the reason why such a legal concept exists is for objectivity. So when interpreting a contract, a judge will not decide a matter based on what either party thinks the means, since both parties will argue that the contract should be read in a way that benefits themselves. Neither will the judge decide based on what he himself thinks the contract means. He will decide based on what he thinks a reasonable person would interpret the contract to be. By doing this, the system removes as much of the judge's personal bias as possible. As I've said in my previous post, we obviously should not debate based on real-life standards. That's equivalent the judge deciding based on what he thinks is right, and personal biases start coming in, such as people who have been bullied before will feel strongly about Yozora's actions. For this reason, we should not assess the story based on what we personally think to be right or wrong, but based on what an independent party would view it to be. The simplest explanation I can give you as to why we should not look at the story from any of the characters' perspectives is the concept of the unreliable narrator. When we're reading stories with an unreliable narrator, the author will often leave clues for the reader that the narrator or protagonist would not become aware of. Authors will generally not write their protagonists to be all-knowing, and many things in the story have to be inferred by the reader. In making inferences, we are already recognising the fact that we're not looking at it strictly from the character's perspective, but incorporating some other element that the character has not observed. With this approach, we're looking at the events in Haganai based not on what Kodaka actually observes, but on what Kodaka should have observed according to the author's hints, even if he does not actually see it. This is why I recommended looking at it from the reasonable person in that position instead. The reasonable person who sees what should be seen and does not see what should not be seen, in accordance with what the author intended it to be. Now, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with regard to being judged by someone who doesn't understand the finer points. For the sake of clarity, let me repost what I said earlier: Quote:
By incorporating things such as other characters' reactions, and making inferences, we are thinking about a reasonable person's view, and not the character's own view. And by looking at it from the view of a character in the story as opposed to from our own view, we are in effect attempting to cast aside our personal biases. This is what I'm getting at. **Working on my reply to potchip, will update. Last edited by frivolity; 2013-02-17 at 06:30. |
||
2013-02-17, 06:28 | Link #145 | ||
We're Back
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
|
Quote:
This is just another way of using real life standards that you said we shouldn't because we have no view on the regular people of Haganai. Any 'ordinary reason person' would then be a product of the viewers ideas and belief, that's bias right off the bat. Quote:
You're essentially going, "Nope, I don't agree with these characters, I want someone that I can agree with to prove that I am right."
__________________
Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2013-02-17 at 06:44. |
||
2013-02-17, 06:49 | Link #146 | ||||
My posts are frivolous
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 35
|
Quote:
Yes, such a character does not exist. As I said, such a character is merely a theoretical construct and forms a base for us to debate. Yes, this reasonable character is created from our minds, so what's reasonable and what's unreasonable is exactly what we should be debating about! It should also not be about what the characters themselves see, because the characters don't observe everything that the author is trying to tell us. So instead we think about what the reasonable person in the character's position would see, and we think about whether it's true that the character should see it. After going through this process of reasoning, only then should we debate. The debate about Yozora and bullying should not be about what we personally think about bullying, or about what Kodaka sees, or even debating that no logic applies at all. It should be about the whether it would be reasonable to construe Yozora's actions as bullying in the context of Haganai, or whether it's so unreasonable that the author could not have meant for us to make such an inference. This is why I've been saying that the reasonable person is a theoretical construct to be used as a base with which we can focus our debate and discussion! Quote:
I'm not saying that we can all ultimately agree on one viewpoint. Of course we won't. But that's the whole point of debating and discussing, and by focusing on both the realm of the story and on what's reasonable for the story, our discussion would be much more objective and robust. Quote:
It leads to the question, "What would a reasonable person in the Haganai-universe think?" That is the question that we should be debating about. Quote:
Edit: Just saw the edited post above. We're indeed using real life standards in a different way, and that makes all the difference in the world. Instead of saying, "I think the practice of forcing youths in the tribe in Brazil to wear gloves full of Bullet Ants is inhumane," we're now saying, "I can see how the tribe views the ritual as a coming-of-age, even if such practices would be unacceptable where I come from." This particular point is not a criticism against your earlier discussions, but against the members who come into the thread saying that they consider Yozora's actions to be a form of bullying since they themselves would not tolerate it. Last edited by frivolity; 2013-02-17 at 08:12. |
||||
2013-02-17, 07:12 | Link #147 |
We're Back
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
|
I believe a reasonable person would be able to see that all this is nothing more than the dynamics of the Neighborhood club. To them this is their nature, their normal, their way of life. Evidence to support this reasonable perspective is how they hardly strayed from their routine and have in fact grown accustom to all of it.
Except maybe Kobato, who is clearly being harassed by Sena and doesn't want anything to do with her.
__________________
|
2013-02-17, 07:20 | Link #148 |
My posts are frivolous
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 35
|
Ok, so how would you explain their interaction in the latest episode, when Sena was clearly hurt that the person she trusted as a friend ended up betraying her? As well as the close up of Yozora's guilty face, which shows that she probably recognised that her actions were wrong?
|
2013-02-17, 07:24 | Link #149 | |
We're Back
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
|
Quote:
Everything up until that point was seen as routine, but a sudden deviation from the normal process causes uncertainty in how to return back to the starting point.
__________________
|
|
2013-02-17, 07:24 | Link #150 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
|
I think everybody can see it's the dynamics of their club. What people might take issue with is the dissonance that occurs when it's played for laughs. That's when it's not just the characters, but the story itself saying that's okay.
Thankfully, that wasn't exactly the case since it did recognise that it was wrong but even then they played it for laughs literally a second earlier so this kind of schizophrenic writing isn't helping anyone.
__________________
|
2013-02-17, 07:28 | Link #151 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Well, Yozora unknowingly crossed a line. But they only realized it the day after.
Mocking Sena for her love of galge, or her narcissism - that's fair game. Playing on her desire to have a friend, the club's common wound - that's when it went into the Not Cool territory. |
2013-02-17, 07:35 | Link #152 |
My posts are frivolous
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 35
|
Alternatively, maybe Yozora is starting to change, even if it's just a little bit. It could mean that she recognises that she had gone too far in her prank, and sees that her actions have more impact on Sena than she had originally thought them to be. In this sense, it would not necessarily be a bad thing if her earlier actions regarding the hair prank were wrong, since it actually means more room for her to change and evolve.
|
2013-02-17, 07:35 | Link #153 | |
We're Back
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
|
Quote:
Indeed; the unexpected error in the system was that none of them realized how serious Sena actually took the fortune reading... Even though they were discussing it in front of her just seconds ago about what they had in mind without hiding a single detail...
__________________
|
|
2013-02-17, 07:43 | Link #157 |
My posts are frivolous
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 35
|
It would be expected that Sena took the fortune reading seriously. If she seriously believed that the hair prank made her look good, then the reasonable inference is that she would have believed in the fortune-telling.
What's unexpected is probably the nature of the trust that Sena had, in that Sena was trusting Yozora not simply on the basis of being gullible, with the general level of trust afforded to others, but also because Yozora was in the special position as one of the people that she considered a friend. This was probably what Yozora did not anticipate. |
2013-02-17, 07:44 | Link #159 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
|
The unexpected event is Sena becoming emotional in the aftermath.
Quote:
|
|
2013-02-17, 07:51 | Link #160 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
|
So basically because she didn't brush it off? So how that does make the actual joke bit funny when it's revealed later that it wasn't okay? The joke they previously played suddenly isn't funny any more was it?
And Sena actually never brushes anything off. And that's played for laughs too.
__________________
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|