Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[Swampstorm]

That seems to suggest that military personnel cannot have successful relationships with civilians. Or pop idols with, well, common folk.

Every relationship involves obstacles to be navigated and compromises to be made. What matters is whether the people involved have the commitment to see it through. It wasn't Minmay's career that distanced her from Hikaru, but rather his decision to place her on a pedastal beyond his own reach. How can we even begin to talk about their differences or their inability to reach a compromise when Hikaru hardly took the effort to build a relationship with her in the first place?

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

That seems to suggest that military personnel cannot have successful relationships with civilians. Or pop idols with, well, common folk.

Yup, the contrast between civilians and the military is pretty much a recurring theme in SDFM and most of Macross (not in the real world off course). The Zentradi were protectors of the protoculture (culture creators) but had to stand outside of that society. The military/UN Spacy is portrayed as a similar human equivalent. Even Milia and Max are effectively separated during her time as a civilian mayor. Afaik only Isamu has been able to break that rule unpunished.

[Hollowgolem]

We all knew Hikaru had to end up with Misa in the end anyway.

Otherwise, the concepts with Misa and Minmei personified wouldn't be adequately dealt with in a sensible, responsible manner. :P

No but seriously, I'm pretty sure the whole thing was Hikaru acting as a surrogate for the viewer, who is supposed to be learning a lesson about maturity and healthy relationships. Hikaru is supposed to be a tool to drive home a point.

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Okay, I’m gonna start by saying that my computer got a virus so I’m at the library and I had everything written up but ran out of time and my login chipped out… so I have to rewrite it all and re-think what I was saying…

Yeah, I've lost many an epic post over the years due to similar circumstances. It happens.

Now, I’m gonna start by saying that I never said Minmei was a loli. Her songs categorized her as one because they were aimed at children and younger teens rather than like Sheryl’s that were aimed at marriage, commitment, and sex most often.

Ranka, however, will never grow out of that loli face like Mao did. It will remain that way forever. And that’ll be a real crutch for her in the big world if she ever decides to quit singing and get a normal job. Working at Nyan-Nyan did not count because we all know that the Japanese love to put lolis like herself into restaurants as cute waitresses.

Oh, I don't know who said it, I just saw it discussed, so I thought I'd chime in. But yes, generally agreed on Sheryl's songs, they tend to favor those themes of love, and also loss. Pink Monsoon is just plain sexy. And yeah, I kinda think Ranka always will to some degree have that as well.

Ep.15, Grace quote: “Fairy 9 is a failure. It is time to rid of her.” (She drops the vial from the roof, just to give you imagery.)

Actually, Ranka attracted the Vajra in Ep.13 without meaning to. But since Grace and Brera had been in contact during this time, I think it was Grace’s plan for Ranka to be seen by a wandering Vajra, captured, and rescued by Brera so her powers would awaken and make Frontier see not only the Vajra as an enemy but Ranka as well. Too bad it only helped Alto see the Vajra as an enemy and not Ranka. I get the feeling in Ep.23 that Grace knew of Ranka’s powers since they first met but couldn’t find her due to what happened to 117. The fact remains that Ranka, as the Little Queen was obviously like Sheryl, a science experiment because she had powers.

I think she did always know that yeah, but then Grace also says something about burning fires of hatred when she's setting off the fold bomb, and it seemed like she had something planned with the Marines. Regardless, those plans changed when she found Ranka still existed. Grace was in the same project as Mao and Ranshe, so I'm sure she knew, she just thought Ranka was dead.

I also still can't help but think Grace was prone to "Why didn't you just shoot her?" She left Sheryl alive because she didn't view her as a threat anymore, and that bit her in the ass later. Then she didn't have a contingency to shoot Ranka while she was on Battle Galaxy, which was pretty silly given she'd already said "Hey! We don't need the Little Queen anymore!" and then realizing "Oh hey, the Little Queen isn't playing ball anymore and is screwing everything up." I mean seriously.

90% of this board is Sheryl prone… what do you expect?

I've noticed this tendency yeah.

Sheryl’s flaws are truly bad in this series. For example, the movie, she persists on singing (being stubborn and overconfident) whilst an attack is going on outside instead of thinking about her crowd’s wellbeing, and instead of listening to Alto, she follows him to the roof. Now, had she listened to Alto and left, she would not have been blown from the building, got bruises, and fallen into peril, nor would she have become every girl in the U.S. movies that stupidly wanders toward the danger. That flaw dug in deep and still irritated me even as she tried to redeem it at the end of the movie.

And actually, when you say she “finds her limitations through her fatal disease,” that makes her sound conceited and stupid because of the fact she should’ve already realized she’s mortal. That, right there, is a limitation that should’ve been noticed years ago. Every other character realizes their mortal and have that one very bad limitation. Alto did through the fact he was a pilot and could be killed if he screwed up just once. Ranka did through the memory of her parents’ death. Only Sheryl not realizing her limitations is pathetic.

It wouldn't be that uncommon though, she's 17 and there's many a teenager who does think they're immortal, and besides, she actually is a bit conceited. Buuut that's not quite what I meant. There's a difference between knowing that you can die and knowing that you will die, and the latter is what Sheryl ultimately faces. Alto knows if he screws up he'll probably die, but Sheryl... it's just she will die. Done deal. Her dialog even suggests she won't live to see planetfall. It's a truer sense of mortality I think, facing a very definitive death, and where she just doesn't have the time anymore to do everything she wants to, but has to make due with the time she has left. It probably particularly hindered her because of her hesitation with Alto. It always seemed she was quick to toy with but slow to actually pin him down as a boyfriend.

Her character flaws just rubbed me the wrong way from Ep.1 and they won’t leave, honestly. Maybe it’s because I don’t like tsunderes (and I tolerated Louise but mostly liked Saito) and Amu has to be the only one that I truly liked from Ep.1 because her emotions showed in that episode.

But I will say, on a side note, that Sheryl is good comic relief. My favorite episode with Sheryl in it would be Ep.8.

Luca: This is bad.
Michael & Alto:
Luca: She took off without strapping in.
Michael & Alto:

If it’s any news to you, Alto was kind to Sheryl before learning of her fatal illness or even knowing she was ill period. He was kind and tolerated her attitude as early on as Ep.5. So, by the time he knew of her illness, she should be contemplating his feelings for her, she should know at least along these lines: “he loves me but he also wants to care for me.” Even if his love never left platonic for Sheryl, she should know that he cares for her out of love and not pity. If he does pity her, it’s not pity for her dying but rather pity for himself not realizing it and pity for losing someone he cares about deeply and she’s suffering. It’s not entirely directed at her and she doesn’t see that.

Nah, she does see that, it's more a question of who he actually loves. By episode 24 it's become a lose-lose, because either he doesn't love her like that and she'll die alone and heartbroken or he does love her and she'll die and leave him heartbroken. Regardless of how Alto really felt, Sheryl wanted him to be able to move on, so he should really go save Ranka and live happily ever after with her. Sheryl only suggests she'll hear what he has to say after the battle, but her monologue shortly after suggests she really didn't think she'd survive the battle, meaning she'd never hear it.

Spoiler for Watashi no Kare wa Pilot:

But for the rest, you’ll have to read the fic.

Proooobably will when you get more parts up.

I may have forgotten a few points in writing all this, but eh.

[Swampstorm]

The discussion on Sheryl's character would perhaps be more appropriate for her character thread. To be fair, though, there are worse flaws to be had than thoughtlessly putting your life at risk for the sake of others. I think you're supposed to feel a bit of animosity towards Sheryl early on, though, simply because it seems like her existance is an obstacle in the way of Ranka's success (not that she actually is, of course, but I remember the reactions when the series first aired). It's just a question of whether you want to keep hating her or not.

Originally Posted by Bri

Yup, the contrast between civilians and the military is pretty much a recurring theme in SDFM and most of Macross (not in the real world off course). The Zentradi were protectors of the protoculture (culture creators) but had to stand outside of that society. The military/UN Spacy is portrayed as a similar human equivalent. Even Milia and Max are effectively separated during her time as a civilian mayor. Afaik only Isamu has been able to break that rule unpunished.

Hmm. Then where would you place a rockstar-turned-pilot? Or an officer-turned-lyricist? Is culture something that we fight to protect, or is culture a weapon used to wage war?

I think the boundaries are much more blurry than you might think, and any semblance of "punishment" for transgressing those boundaries is more superstition than a natural law enforced by the storywriters.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Bri

Sheryl and Ranka both worship him and there is little to no conflict between the two.

While Ranka was all over princess, Sheryl was kind enough to permit Alto in retaining some of his otherwise tattered individuality

Every situation involving Ranka left Alto little to no room for self-expression while the former jammed her childish hopes & desires into Alto's head without a care in the world.

Originally Posted by Bri

The general concensus seems to be that he had stronger feelings for Sheryl. Still there was never a moment he really had to choose between the two and the romance in the TV-series ended up unresolved.

The moment Alto made the choice to stay behind for Sheryl (followed by the deed) and the moment Ranka issued a challenge to Sheryl was self-explanatory enough. For me, anyway. It was not necessary for the show to proclaim the winner out loud.

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

While Ranka was all over princess, Sheryl was kind enough to permit Alto in retaining some of his otherwise tattered individuality

Every situation involving Ranka left Alto little to no room for self-expression while the former jammed her childish hopes & desires into Alto's head without a care in the world.

If Alto felt that way, wouldn't he have stopped hanging out with her...?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

If Alto felt that way, wouldn't he have stopped hanging out with her...?

Many of the situation were pretty forced upon him, imo.

And Alto was being too much of a nice guy. I think he felt obligated. After all, it was her who indirectly gave Alto his entry into SMS. Otherwise, when was the last time Ranka sat down and seriously listened to what Alto had to say?

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

Many of the situation were pretty forced upon him, imo.

And Alto was being too much of a nice guy. I think he felt obligated. After all, it was her who indirectly gave Alto his entry into SMS.

See, this is where we part ways, I guess. Alto has no qualms about getting angry at Ozma, Michel, and Sheryl, for example. Why would it be different with Ranka?

Originally Posted by Tak

Otherwise, when was the last time Ranka sat down and seriously listened to what Alto had to say?

- Tak

You got me there...I always assumed that during their continual texting back and forth in episode 4 that he must've been saying SOMETHING of substance, but maybe he wasn't.

[Hollowgolem]

Have you looked at the kind of pointless text messages kids send back and forth.

I'm a highschool teacher, and I could tell some stories about empty conversation, lemme tell ya.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Hollowgolem

Have you looked at the kind of pointless text messages kids send back and forth.

I'm a highschool teacher, and I could tell some stories about empty conversation, lemme tell ya.

ALTO: got a new red string 4 my hair!!! u jelus???

RANKA is not available to chat.

ALTO: lol u totally jelus right btw tell ur bro 2 quit bin such a hardass lmao.

RANKA is not available to chat.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

See, this is where we part ways, I guess. Alto has no qualms about getting angry at Ozma, Michel, and Sheryl, for example. Why would it be different with Ranka?

Because while Ozma, Michel & Sheryl could take it, Ranka... can't. We know what happened last time she got emotional.

Ranka is the type of person that I'd vent my frustration behind her, but never in front of her. I just can't do it. Can't bring myself to hurt a little girl's feelings. The moment you do it, she either comes in teary eyed, or she summons a swarm of Vajra...

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

You got me there...I always assumed that during their continual texting back and forth in episode 4 that he must've been saying SOMETHING of substance, but maybe he wasn't.

Its usually Ranka texting him, though

I cannot recall a time when Alto actually texted Ranka because he wanted to.

Originally Posted by Hollowgolem

I'm a highschool teacher, and I could tell some stories about empty conversation, lemme tell ya.

I used to tell students that texting makes them dumb. For example:

OMG, I ROTFLOL. OK, TTYL, THX BYE!

That, is a complete sentence, btw.

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

Because while Ozma, Michel & Sheryl could take it, Ranka... can't. We know what happened last time she got emotional.

Ranka is the type of person that I'd vent my frustration behind her, but never in front of her. I just can't do it. Can't bring myself to hurt a little girl's feelings. The moment you do it, she either comes in teary eyed, or she summons a swarm of Vajra...

I dunno...it sounds like you're taking YOUR view of Ranka, and ascribing it to Alto. Which is just as much of a fan-fic as anything LMK comes up with.

Show me any point where Alto vents about Ranka's self-centeredness, and I'll concede.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I dunno...it sounds like you're taking YOUR view of Ranka, and ascribing it to Alto. Which is just as much of a fan-fic as anything LMK comes up with.

Show me any point where Alto vents about Ranka's self-centeredness, and I'll concede.

Alto didn't vent about Ranka. But I'd say he had mixed and rather negative feelings for her actions when she left Frontier.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Alto didn't vent about Ranka. But I'd say he had mixed and rather negative feelings for her actions when she left Frontier.

Okay, that's true...but that's not what Tak was talking about.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Okay, that's true...but that's not what Tak was talking about.

Eh, thats pretty close to what I was talking about.

I am saying I won't vent in front of Ranka, because she is not the type of girl that I'd dare hurt her feelings, but neither would Alto. However, while Alto wouldn't vent behind her either, I would, if ever given the opportunity. Latter part has nothing to do with Alto, since I never said Alto vented about her self-centeredness in front or behind her.

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

Eh, thats pretty close to what I was talking about.

Huh...? You were talking about Alto getting annoyed by Ranka talking about herself all the time. Is that the same as her leaving the ship...?

Originally Posted by Tak

I am saying I won't vent in front of Ranka, because she is not the type of girl that I'd dare hurt her feelings, but neither would Alto. However, while Alto wouldn't vent behind her either, I would, if ever given the opportunity. Latter part has nothing to do with Alto, since I never said Alto vented about her self-centeredness in front or behind her.

- Tak

Allow me to quote you:

Originally Posted by Tak

Many of the situation were pretty forced upon him, imo.

And Alto was being too much of a nice guy. I think he felt obligated.

If nothing he SAYS or DOES in the series indicates that this is his feeling, what are you basing it on?

And anyway...who cares what YOU would do or say to Ranka...YOU'RE not a character in the show.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

If nothing he SAYS or DOES in the series indicates that this is his feeling, what are you basing it on?

What are you talking about. I am simply pointing out that much of the situation involving Ranka & Alto are forced upon him, rather than the latter seeking the situation. What does that have to do with Alto venting his frustration? Nor did I claim Alto ever expressed his frustration. He knows better than that.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

And anyway...who cares what YOU would do or say to Ranka...YOU'RE not a character in the show.

I am again, pointing out that Ranka is the kind of girl nobody would dare toss crap at in her presence. Simple as that. Michel shut her up basically by nodding his head and buying her soft-cream while she was having a fit. Even Ozma reluctantly permitted Ranka to do what she wanted to do after a heated argument that led to the aforementioned situation.

I don't know what kind of context you are trying to stretch.

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

What are you talking about. I am simply pointing out that much of the situation involving Ranka & Alto are forced upon him, rather than the latter seeking the situation. What does that have to do with Alto venting his frustration, nor did I claim Alto ever expressed his frustration. He knows better than that.

Yes, but you're saying that he HAS frustration towards Ranka. I see no evidence of it. Can you point me in the right direction, please?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Yes, but you're saying that he HAS frustration towards Ranka. I see no evidence of it. Can you point me in the right direction, please?

No, my original statement merely mentioned that Alto felt obligated to comply with Ranka's situation. It said nothing of him venting his frustration.

- Tak