Dies Irae/Kajiri Kamui Kagura/Paradise Lost/Senshinkan series

[trexalfa]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Uhh, you forget about Judas.

Judas (Daemonic Bullet was even his nickname) was also fairly normal OUTSIDE of being supernaturaly good with guns (even better than Shirou if I dare say).

He only ever gets superpowers after taking Beelzebub (real Dust Angel, not related to Elixir drug that is rampant across Sodom) into his body from Sophie's blood transfusion.

Seems like there's a pattern here, as Shirou does get powers himself later on due to Red Anna's Ahnenerbe. Zurvan likely starts off pretty normal/low key then gets a power boost. Tentsui?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Why do Naraka's people love guns so much though......The theory that he's Masada's self-insert grows ever stronger.

[erneiz_hyde]

I thought Masada's self-insert was Suigin?

Anyways, I actually haven't followed any of this new stuff so I am relying on the summaries you guys provided. One question, how much of the history of the world does the characters know? Or more directly, how long have Mitra stayed in the Throne at this point? It's been theorized before that the Observer appearing is a sign of the end of the current Throne, I'm wondering if that is purely coincidence or if Naraka engineered the situations leading to it (we know he's capable of that). If he did, then it also meant he helped killing the woman he loved.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I thought Masada's self-insert was Suigin?

Anyways, I actually haven't followed any of this new stuff so I am relying on the summaries you guys provided. One question, how much of the history of the world does the characters know? Or more directly, how long have Mitra stayed in the Throne at this point? It's been theorized before that the Observer appearing is a sign of the end of the current Throne, I'm wondering if that is purely coincidence or if Naraka engineered the situations leading to it (we know he's capable of that). If he did, then it also meant he helped killing the woman he loved.

The main protags know nothing about the actual history to date. Khvarenah and Suirios may know but they aren't saying. Mithra also hasn't been mentioned yet.

[Ricky365]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Why do Naraka's people love guns so much though......The theory that he's Masada's self-insert grows ever stronger.

Maybe Naraka himself was a gunner in pre-Throne era? )

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Ch2 latter part:

Spoiler:

The key to defeating Khvarenah lies in whatever transpired between him and Warahrām that left the former so uneasy that he spawned Quinn and sent her on the mission to gather and find out more about "miracles." The truth of that matter however is still a mystery because as noted before, Suirios refuses to talk about it.

For now, the focus is on finding more stray artifacts of Khvarenah's.

The new shota Yazata, Ferdos is described by Masada as a "hopeless committee chairperson" type character, ie, a serious minded person but easily swayed by those around him. This chapter he just idiotically falls for Samrukh's trolling though. He apparently, has a competition with Quinn and Samrukh in feather accumulation

The younger sister of Suirios is Nahid. She is also Warahrām's betrothed. Her main role is to function as a communication relay for Vohu Manah. She is on another level from Suirios or anyone else in terms of this and can connect with and command over 2000 different star spirits. Together with Warahrām they formed the main bulwark of the Wahman Yasht's fighting power.

Back then, Warahrām and Nahid were inseperable. They were always on the frontlines being the beacon of hope for the Yazata. However, while Nahid was indeed a very loving person, her true love was reserved only for Warahrām. Suirios, knowing this and out of concern for his friend and sister's happiness, thus took the role of king upon himself to spare them the burden of leadership so that they at least had some freedom to themselves. Because of this, Warahrām and Nahid were deeply grateful and loyal to Suirios. While most people consider only the two great heroes Warahrām and Nahid, in truth, it was the three of them (including Suirios) who were legend.

Ferdos worships the three of them because all Ashavan owe their life to Warahrām and Nahid. It was because of the furious struggle put up by them that Khvarenah deliberately let the Yazata go. If they had not done so, the Wahman Yasht would have been exterminated to the last and the Avesta war lost. Nevertheless, Nahid survived the battle. She is considered a truly unique entity especially when one considers the Yazata's main strength to be numbers and cooperation rather than mighty individuals like the 7 Demon Lords. However, she is in stasis, ensconced in her resting place. While her chambers are like a noble's bedroom, something was off about it. The place was cold, devoid of life and color. Samrukh even thought they were visiting her tomb thinking if this can be even called "living."


Turns out Nahid is being suspended in a bubble of frozen time. The artifice was also one of Khvarenah's creations. While the exact working sare unknown, the equipment is operated by a single button and produces a time stop in a 1m diameter, 2m high hemisphere. She had been held in stasis ever since the battle 20 years ago. Deemed too important to lose, she has been kept alive in this manner all this while. However, Quinn speculates Suirios may have allowed this in the hope that when she next wakes, the Wahman would have been restored and she can find happiness again.

Cont'd

Spoiler:

chapter also confirms that Magsarion does not have talent or skill in combat. He fights without finesse in a reckless manner as seen from his actions in his forest training pit, a clearing that he carved out over years of basically swinging his sword wildly over and over until it is simply self destructive behaviour. Instead he makes up for his lack of skill with brute strength. Zurvan says he drives himself so hard because he is tormented by the knowledge that he'll never match his brother and sister-in-law.

[trexalfa]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I thought Masada's self-insert was Suigin?

Anyways, I actually haven't followed any of this new stuff so I am relying on the summaries you guys provided. One question, how much of the history of the world does the characters know? Or more directly, how long have Mitra stayed in the Throne at this point? It's been theorized before that the Observer appearing is a sign of the end of the current Throne, I'm wondering if that is purely coincidence or if Naraka engineered the situations leading to it (we know he's capable of that). If he did, then it also meant he helped killing the woman he loved.

Masada said that Zurvan, being the first Observer in history, may have quite of a peculiar/heavy role. He said he was planning on revealing what kind of person he was (I think he meant Naraka) in Pantheon but now, things may be different. So far he's really described him with all characteristics that are common to Observers: blond hair, love for flashy clothes, easy going, craving to live as a human being (therefore being the most sober character deep down), being a troublemaker that upsets friend and foe alike (therefore being relatively unpopular even within his own side), excellent skill with guns, erectyl disfunction, and a lover-ish companion.

Also, Mithra got referenced in Sirius' ending monologue for this chapter. When he says that "Everything about this world is wrong" and promises Varhran to create a new one, alongside references to "God's Throne" and a "foolish ruler". He's giving me so many Daten Naraku vibes it's not even funny.

[erneiz_hyde]

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I was wondering, doesn't マグサリオンに次ぐ武功の持ち主 means he's next to Magsarion in strength? How exactly does that make him a regular person?

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Cont'd

Spoiler:

chapter also confirms that Magsarion does not have talent or skill in combat. He fights without finesse in a reckless manner as seen from his actions in his forest training pit, a clearing that he carved out over years of basically swinging his sword wildly over and over until it is simply self destructive behaviour. Instead he makes up for his lack of skill with brute strength. Zurvan says he drives himself so hard because he is tormented by the knowledge that he'll never match his brother and sister-in-law.

So apparently the answer is, despite the amazing feats we saw in the previous chapter, Magsarion isn't that strong in terms of strength, and with Zurvan being next to him means he isn't that strong either?

[trexalfa]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I was wondering, doesn't マグサリオンに次ぐ武功の持ち主 means he's next to Magsarion in strength? How exactly does that make him a regular person?


So apparently the answer is, despite the amazing feats we saw in the previous chapter, Magsarion isn't that strong in terms of strength, and with Zurvan being next to him means he isn't that strong either?

武功 is more like military exploits, as in, he's got experience and achievements comparable to his. Also, Zurvan's a regular guy in the sense Shirou is. As in, not very.

And if what we see in this chapter is any indication... what Magsarion lacks is natural talent, not strength (what is said in his character bio is 武才, aka martial genius). He is plenty strong, but he needs to be an extreme hardworker. He's definately not his brother, who was a combat genius. Magsarion in terms of natural aptitude is average down to mediocre, so he needs to make up for it with lots of training and even then, he still isn't on par with Varhram. He fights recklessly, unskillfully, using techniques that are considered self destructive by his peers.

[AkitoW013]

As Trexalfa said, despite his shortcomings, Magsarion is plenty strong, he's working hard to the point of destroying himself but his path is one of sufferings because he'll never be a hero like his brother, yet he cannot run from that responsibility and will not forgive himself.
Zurvān told Quinn once that Magsarion, despite being an ordinary person, will always emerge victorious, never expecting any praises or will not care if the whole world sneers behind his back.
By Saoshyant Desatir, he is still undefeated.

Another point is Magsarion follows the avesta to the letter, it never says to protect others or whatsoever, he will not forgive the evils and will massacres them all, such is the only path he can take.
There is a faction in Wahman Yast who truly respects him for all this, and if you ask them, such as Ferdows, what is just? then Magsarion is the very embodiment of Justice.

As for Zurvān being second to Magsarion refers to theirs achievements/deeds.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I was wondering, doesn't マグサリオンに次ぐ武功の持ち主 means he's next to Magsarion in strength? How exactly does that make him a regular person?


So apparently the answer is, despite the amazing feats we saw in the previous chapter, Magsarion isn't that strong in terms of strength, and with Zurvan being next to him means he isn't that strong either?

Dunno about Zurvan but Magsarion is a suicidal brute. Strength is exactly what he has. It's skill he lacks. A skilled fighter can technically take him down by playing against his recklessness. The thing about Magsarion is that he trains and pushes himself harder than anyone else


BTW....technically speaking, rank and file Yazata are "normal humans" by the standards of this world. I mean, seeing how so many Ashavan are Yazata....Magsarion is just insane/in despair enough to push himself far past his innate limits. Another thing, apparently, he would have rotted as a Yazata (tentsui-ed?) if he were driven purely by revenge but because the bulk of it is apparently from a sense of duty in needing to replace his brother, he doesn't fall (quite meh logic since I don't see how needing to replace his brother = kill Evil at all costs but whatever...)

Originally Posted by trexalfa

erectyl disfunction,

I still don't get why this is a thing....Like why, Masada. What drove you to make impotence one of Shirou's and apparently, Naraka's defining traits?

[trexalfa]

It's only a trait of his Sensories according to the KKK VFB, and it is only adquired after they "awaken" as Observer. Apparently this awakening, unlike those of other Sensories, doesn't make them aware of their true self (Masada confirmed once and for all in Zurvan's bio that they are not aware of Naraka).

According to the KKK VFB, the thing about their sexual impotence is due to Naraka's love for Mithra. If it's not her, it won't be any other woman apparently. And in spite of that, lover-like companion such as Lilith or Erii is listed by Masada as a defining trait of Observer...

[Cosmic Eagle]

Yeah like....why. It's as if Naraka is NEET no 2 deep down inside....Or rather someone who is the epitome of frustration when you take into account also the whole fed up with the world thing since NEET actually enjoys his situation


BTW....it looks more like a set up for Magsarion to devour Suirios now at the end, thus setting up also his aspect as the old man God from Dai Ni Ten

[Golden Lily]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

BTW....it looks more like a set up for Magsarion to devour Suirios

Probably another person too. Bhavan maybe?
Would explain why he has 3 Vows.

[AkitoW013]

Originally Posted by Golden Lily

Probably another person too. Bhavan maybe?
Would explain why he has 3 Vows.

Not necessarily, 1 person can have more than 1 Commandment, it was in a lore dump if I remember correctly.


Now that I'm thinking back, all of what was said about Magsarion were from third parties but not from him in person, maybe his reason for fighting could be something more simpler like how he described himself in Saoshyant Desatir: that he could never stand the Dragvant and that killing them was normal and what he wished has always been the complete victory of Ashavan.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Cont'd

Spoiler:

chapter also confirms that Magsarion does not have talent or skill in combat. He fights without finesse in a reckless manner as seen from his actions in his forest training pit, a clearing that he carved out over years of basically swinging his sword wildly over and over until it is simply self destructive behaviour. Instead he makes up for his lack of skill with brute strength. Zurvan says he drives himself so hard because he is tormented by the knowledge that he'll never match his brother and sister-in-law.

Cont'd

Spoiler:

Zurvan is the guy who first brought Quinn to the Wahman Yasht and is her mentor of sorts whom she traveled with for a year. She can't stand him (he essentially is a wiseass like Shirou) and has seriously considered killing him even though it would break her Vow numerous times. She isn't the only one to feel this way. Practically all the Yazata avoid him. Even when Magsarion is considered he literally is the most disliked person among the Yazata. Despite being a slacker he has the second most military exploits after Magsarion.

Magsarion's punishment has been decided and it's going to involve Quinn and co including Zurvan on some assignment.


Suirios flashback scene tells of a boy who wanted to be a miracle warrior straight out of fairy tales who makes the impossible possible while carrying everyone's hopes and standing at their head. He defeated all of the other kids and it looked like there was nothing he could not accomplish so he naturally thought his goal was in reach and he became arrogant, thinking himself special. He spent each day aiming for even greater heights. He was convinced he was a hero chosen by God. He did not slacken off, putting in great effort despite whatever hardship to realize the day when his legend would truly begin.

Then came his first defeat. More than anger or disappointment, he was surprised by it. He had been beaten by a totally unknown 14 year old youth from the countryside. And he saw it. More than simply strong, this boy was the real thing....the true "legendary hero." His journey had led him to this meeting.....to pass on his dream to this person. And they exchanged names. He was Suirios. The boy who beat him was Warahrām. The first words Warahrām said to Suirios were "sorry, did I hit you too hard?" Suirios laughed at that and they both laughed and the laughter reverbrated like ripples. While they were laughing, Warahrām's sister, Nahid, a socially withdrawn child up till that point, began spontaneously laughing also. Her laughter's beauty charmed numerous star spirits, and thus, the three heroes' legend began.

30 years later in the present, Suirios is old and alone. Everyone he knew and loved is dead. He years nothing more than to see his impossible dream become possible. A world where he and his dearest friend stand together while he hands him his wedding gift, his sister in her wedding dress and them enveloped by star spirits' wings going to the new world to the sound of victory hymns. This would be a world where no one wept and where Good prevails.

"Friend, I can never become you, but still I see it," he says in a voice that echoes throughout the world carrying with it a will (hadou) that will irreversibly crush everything. "Everything is wrong with this world. You having become like that....I cannot accept it. I swear to you Warahrām, I will make a new world." He may just be a fake, a shadow cast by the radiance of the true hero, and there was no audience of tens of thousands but it still did no dishonor to the day he met his friend.

Carrying this imperfect dominance, he would prove his friend's infallibility. By an ideal that can no longer ever be fulfilled, he would bring undying glory to the hero's legend. If only Warahrām were alive, he would take these hopes and enshrine them on the Throne of God.

"Even with my standards, I can do it. If it's you, you'll surely do it much better, so everyone and I believe and the promise would be fulfilled. Please return as the miracle everyone prayed for, my friend."

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by trexalfa

Also, Mithra got referenced in Sirius' ending monologue for this chapter. When he says that "Everything about this world is wrong" and promises Varhran to create a new one, alongside references to "God's Throne" and a "foolish ruler". He's giving me so many Daten Naraku vibes it's not even funny.

He isn't talking about Mithra though. It's himself he is referring to.


I think the final Muzan may include Warahrām in the mix also seeing how Suirios believes only he is worthy to lead.

[erneiz_hyde]

As I was watching Dies and Senshinkan snippets on youtube, I came across the extra scenario of Pantheon Prologue in Dies Switch. "Finally" I thought, since I never watched this extra scenario before.

I didn't connect or thought of it the first time, but as I went through it the second time, I thought flashed my mind, "what if the immortal that Shinga was talking about was Naraka?" If it is, then the only way to defeat the guy is to somehow break his Vow and nullify his immortality.
The hiccup to this is when Muzan was dismissing Kemono-dono's question about whether this immortal guy was Muzan. It isn't quite clear whether he knew or didn't know the immortal guy. If he knew the guy then the immortal guy probably isn't Naraka.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Why the heck does Nahid look like Nanten of all people lol

[AkitoW013]

Just G's samefaces striking again.