Dragon Ball Super (Manga)

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by TURI123456

Son Goku allows to his son (Son Gohan) to go to Namek it's not something so responsible to do.

The question isn't if Son Goku is a person who takes care of his friends but if Son Goku is a responsible father.







I didn't mean that you said it was long. I just meant that's not something that we can use to judge because it was short.

I wasn't even talking about whether he's a good friend. At most I pointed out that the way the first transformation was written it looked a lot more like he was first and foremost overwhelmed with a desperate need to protect his son rather than just angry over his friend's death.

And yeah, he let his son go to Namek, a place that as far as they knew didn't have any major threats and was populated by countless members of Piccolo's race, because Gohan had a deep bond with him and felt responsible for his death and thus wanted to be part of his revival.

I'm not saying he's the perfect father. I just said he isn't the absolutely terrible father people claim he is. As I said, part of it is that he and Gohan kind of lived in different worlds. There's not much he could do to help Gohan in his pursuit of scholarship; best he could do was continue training and increasing his range of abilities so if something happened he'd be able to deal with it. At the least, he's not particularly worse than Vegeta in the fatherhood department, it just looks that way because Vegeta's got more in common with his son.

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I wasn't even talking about whether he's a good friend. At most I pointed out that the way the first transformation was written it looked a lot more like he was first and foremost overwhelmed with a desperate need to protect his son rather than just angry over his friend's death.

And yeah, he let his son go to Namek, a place that as far as they knew didn't have any major threats and was populated by countless members of Piccolo's race, because Gohan had a deep bond with him and felt responsible for his death and thus wanted to be part of his revival.

I'm not saying he's the perfect father. I just said he isn't the absolutely terrible father people claim he is. As I said, part of it is that he and Gohan kind of lived in different worlds. There's not much he could do to help Gohan in his pursuit of scholarship; best he could do was continue training and increasing his range of abilities so if something happened he'd be able to deal with it. At the least, he's not particularly worse than Vegeta in the fatherhood department, it just looks that way because Vegeta's got more in common with his son.

My apologies I didn't read correctly what you wrote.

I disagree with you about this Son Goku's anger was the important thing there he even mentioned only that when he changed himself and after he changed himself.

Son Goku isn't an abusive parent but he is still not a good parent.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I wasn't even talking about whether he's a good friend. At most I pointed out that the way the first transformation was written it looked a lot more like he was first and foremost overwhelmed with a desperate need to protect his son rather than just angry over his friend's death.

It's flat out wrong though, it's 100% Krillin's death that triggered his transformation. I don't know how anyone could read the manga and come to a different conclusion.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Kanon

It's flat out wrong though, it's 100% Krillin's death that triggered his transformation. I don't know how anyone could read the manga and come to a different conclusion.

Well let's see... Freeza reappears. Goku tells both Krillin and Gohan to get away fast. Freeza kills Krillin, then says Gohan's next. Goku transforms, again tells Gohan to get out, and to bring Piccolo with him since he's hurt but still alive, then stops Freeza from killing them too, and the battle starts. It's not 100% Gohan, never said that (big difference between "I think it's primarily Gohan" and "it's all Gohan period"), but no, I don't think it's as cut-and-dry "you killed my friend" as you say. How much is "I have to stop you" and how much is "I have to hurt you for what you've done" is hard to say, but there's definitely some of both, and I personally felt like there was more of the former than the latter. But then, I've long felt from all the different transformations that desperation is a more frequent and powerful catalyst than simple vengeance. Same thing with Gohan transforming from desperation because he knows what will happen if he doesn't, him transforming again when everyone he loves is nearly killed (and one person gave up his life to tell him he doesn't need to hold back), and even later with Cabba in Super finally snapping when Vegeta declares he's going to wipe out all the Saiyans of his universe. In all cases there's definitely anger involved as well, but there's certainly room to argue that a desperate need plays a big role, and "I have to protect Gohan" fits that part far more than "you killed my friend".

[Mad Pierrot]

I don't know if this counts but back when Piccolo was shot in the manga, Goku already had some unstable expressions in the manga as if his eyes were going white. Then again, I'm kinda surprised that the whole Super Saiyan was first executed as a beta form in the Slug movie where Goku is covered with a golden aura, his hair goes up, it stays a bit light brown due to the aura but his eyes stay big rather than small.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Well let's see... Freeza reappears. Goku tells both Krillin and Gohan to get away fast. Freeza kills Krillin, then says Gohan's next. Goku transforms, again tells Gohan to get out, and to bring Piccolo with him since he's hurt but still alive, then stops Freeza from killing them too, and the battle starts. It's not 100% Gohan, never said that (big difference between "I think it's primarily Gohan" and "it's all Gohan period"), but no, I don't think it's as cut-and-dry "you killed my friend" as you say. How much is "I have to stop you" and how much is "I have to hurt you for what you've done" is hard to say, but there's definitely some of both, and I personally felt like there was more of the former than the latter. But then, I've long felt from all the different transformations that desperation is a more frequent and powerful catalyst than simple vengeance. Same thing with Gohan transforming from desperation because he knows what will happen if he doesn't, him transforming again when everyone he loves is nearly killed (and one person gave up his life to tell him he doesn't need to hold back), and even later with Cabba in Super finally snapping when Vegeta declares he's going to wipe out all the Saiyans of his universe. In all cases there's definitely anger involved as well, but there's certainly room to argue that a desperate need plays a big role, and "I have to protect Gohan" fits that part far more than "you killed my friend".

Right before transforming, Goku tells Frieza he's going to pay. It's very much his anger at Krillin's death that allowed him to transform. Of course he was concerned for Gohan, but that wasn't the catalyst.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Right before transforming, Goku tells Frieza he's going to pay. It's very much his anger at Krillin's death that allowed him to transform. Of course he was concerned for Gohan, but that wasn't the catalyst.

That's the English translation. Yurusanai isn't as clean-cut. It can just as easily mean "to not permit" as "to not forgive".

Anyway, even if concern for Gohan wasn't the core catalyst of his change at that point, it doesn't change my main point from the start: he cares a whole lot more about his son that people often say, and while he's far from the best father, he's not bad. At least until he started to be Flanderized in later portions, particularly Super.

[Kanon]

Toyotarou stated on his Twitter that Toriyama added the final scene of the latest chapter with Piccolo (known to be his favorite character) waving at the teacher as well as the reader (given the paneling) a few days before his passing. He was saying goodbye to us

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

That's the English translation. Yurusanai isn't as clean-cut. It can just as easily mean "to not permit" as "to not forgive".

Anyway, even if concern for Gohan wasn't the core catalyst of his change at that point, it doesn't change my main point from the start: he cares a whole lot more about his son that people often say, and while he's far from the best father, he's not bad. At least until he started to be Flanderized in later portions, particularly Super.

I don't think people argue he doesn't care about his son, just that he's not a very good father for the reasons I stated earlier.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I don't think people argue he doesn't care about his son, just that he's not a very good father for the reasons I stated earlier.

Seems I've seen a lot of people call him simply an awful father from start to finish. Seen him on at least a few "worst father" lists. And yeah, he's not the perfect father (personally I'd say that title currently goes to a certain Hell-Lord in a different manga series that just finished its first season), but he cares a lot more about his kids than some seem to remember. But either way, while I don't intend to get into a discussion about it, I'm pretty sure some argument could be made about the remainder of Z as well.

Either way, honestly back when it aired on CN I really wished they'd actually switch it out and let Gohan be the hero. I think he would've made an awesome hero if Toriyama had let him; yeah, he probably would've still ended up with some similar situations like focusing too much on studies to maintain his power, thus requiring catch-up, but I for one would've loved such a timeline. Makes me wonder if anyone's done/considered an AU fic along those lines.

[justavisitor]

Dragonball itself already fulfills your AU wish, and that's the Bojack movie, a non-canon movie where Gohan finds perfect balance between training and studies.

And I always thought Goku was a good father. He is the one who leads not by what he says, but by what he does. At the end of the cell saga where everyone, including gohan, looks goku as a role model and inspiration. And we are all good with that.

Then the buu saga happens XD

[GDB]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Seems I've seen a lot of people call him simply an awful father from start to finish. Seen him on at least a few "worst father" lists.

Realistically, you can't even start to claim it until the very end of the Namek Saga (as someone said earlier). In a way, one could argue that going Super Saiyan broke whatever emotional capacity/empathy/brain/etc that he had for anything outside of fighting, given the timing.

Originally Posted by justavisitor

Dragonball itself already fulfills your AU wish, and that's the Bojack movie, a non-canon movie where Gohan finds perfect balance between training and studies.

Legit one of the best movies, in large part for that. If only he didn't have to get a pep talk/anger boost to go SSJ2 again it would've been in contention for best. Also shoutout to Hildegarn/Dragon Fist for also remembering that Gohan is smart in fighting too, can figure out an enemy's tricks, and also knows when it's time to stop the Saiyaman nonsense and get serious.

[Diamond English]

https://pasteboard.co/58HwX3pOiQ43.jpg

Honestly Goku is so selfless, great paragon of virtue

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Diamond English

https://pasteboard.co/58HwX3pOiQ43.jpg

Honestly Goku is so selfless, great paragon of virtue

Pretty sure that was mostly if not entirely a continuation of what seemed to be the intent behind him staying gone after Cell: he felt that it would be better if a new generation took over the task of protecting the world. By that point many of the enemies they'd faced had been there because of him, so stepping back may have seemed like a good idea. It wasn't until after things had gone too far with Buu that he had to recognize that the new generation either wasn't ready or simply couldn't keep up.

So basically, more stupid than any other lack of virtue.

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Pretty sure that was mostly if not entirely a continuation of what seemed to be the intent behind him staying gone after Cell: he felt that it would be better if a new generation took over the task of protecting the world. By that point many of the enemies they'd faced had been there because of him, so stepping back may have seemed like a good idea. It wasn't until after things had gone too far with Buu that he had to recognize that the new generation either wasn't ready or simply couldn't keep up.

So basically, more stupid than any other lack of virtue.

I guess it was a writer's cop out. I still hate this was exaggerated to the point Goku and Vegeta escaped from Earth leaving their children to be killed by Buu.

[Ligerleon89]

All this came up as soon as Goku forgot Pan for a time. I will say that Goku definitely needs to sort that out in his present. It's no fun being the kind of guy who seems to not fulfill his role as parental figure. He definitely has a good heart, it seems that bump on his head and how he was raised ignorant of certain world things has him be too complacent in terms of things outside of martial arts. We've seen him go nuclear on anyone who harms his family and friends. That's still one of the good thing he has. As for the Buu stuff. While I know I wanted him to get his son and Trunks. Kid Buu already caused a planet busting explosion...He and Vegeta didn't have a lot of time. They did get Hercule(Mr. Satan) who people worshipped more than the both of them and Dende was still alive to contact New Namek to use their Dragon Balls.

I'm still not a fan of people ragging on Goku, but that part is on Toriyama as well for writing Goku like that. Right now I'm more interested in Beast Gohan and what Goku can do to better himself, because man that choice with Frieza really came to bit him in the rear.

[Mad Pierrot]

When it comes to transformations, I think we can't ask anymore. Finally after the Cell and Buu arc, Piccolo was given his own power up, while Goku, Vegeta and Gohan were given their own forms rather than a Super Saiyan. If they use more transformations, it will feel more like more demands for toys were made.

[BWTraveller]

They certainly have dumbed him down a lot. In the original Dragon Ball he knew what marriage was but thought Chichi was talking about konjac because engagement sounds almost identical in Japanese; when she later showed up to marry him and he realized his mistake, he did it with a full understanding of its meaning. Then somewhere along the way he turned into a guy who'd managed to father two boys without knowing what a kiss is. Which kind of makes the Abridged version of their love life fit an awful lot.

[Guernsey]

That is a good point. Goku was a country bumpkin but he isn't that dumb or ignorant.

[Mad Pierrot]

It kinda feels like Toriyama was really in charge of Super's writing but I don't say it because of how he became a horrible grandad but because of how the Granolah arc expanded that mini oneshot about Goku's parents that Toriyama wrote himself in the past. This seems more obvious by the fact Shueisha claimed the hiatus is indefinitive as if Toyotaro was only the artist.

[GDB]

If they were smart, they'd end Super here, and any continuation they had planned be renamed to a new series. Let Super's final scene be Toriyama's Piccolo waving goodbye.