2012-09-08, 21:40 | Link #30442 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I believe it's full title is: "Rosa felt really bad about getting Kuwadorian Beatrice killed and was also just generally lonely and miserable so she created a Beatrice personality within herself that had the past of a fictional friend of Shannon's named Yasu who for some reason absorbed Shannon's love for Battler so that the Beatrice within Rosa was in love with Battler and committed the murders for his attention but also thought that for some reason she could resurrect the Kuwadorian Beatrice by performing a bizarre murder ritual and happened to get the help of George who himself was also planning to murder the whole family because for some reason he thought that killing people would help him get with Shannon and Nanjo helped too because he needed money for his dying grandchild's medical treatment and had no other recourse but to help the two murderers kill the whole family of his life-long friend in exchange for the money to save his grandchild. Oh, and ShKanon is nonsense." Theory.
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2012-09-08, 22:31 | Link #30444 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-09-08, 22:56 | Link #30445 |
Senior Member
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Gabielous: If you solve the riddle of the epitaph, you should be able to reach the Golden Land.`@` When you have, the ceremony will be over.`@` No more people will die.
There's another loophole. Perhaps Beato's comment doesn't mean "If you solve the epitaph, no more people will die." Perhaps it means "If you reach the Golden Land, no more people will die.", and that, while Eva, Rosa, Battler, and Erika solved the epitaph, they didn't
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2012-09-08, 23:03 | Link #30446 |
黄金の魔女 Golden Witch
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Natal-RN, Brazil
Age: 28
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"You should be able to reach the Golden Land. When you have, the ceremony will be over. No more people will die."
We can interpret it was "When you reach the Golden Land the ceremony will be over and no one will die because of it" So Beato's comment may refer only to the deaths caused by the ceremony. The Man from 19 years ago is only trying to get revenge, not fulfilling the ceremony. Either this or MO19YA=/=Yasu, which means even if Yasu stops the murders (or in EP6's case, doesn't even begins them) this doesn't means no one will die.
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2012-09-08, 23:08 | Link #30447 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Well, here's the thing:
1) Yasu would no longer commit the murders once the epitaph and the gold was found. 2) Did Eva really solve the epitaph? 3) What exactly was Yasu doing in EP5? You are kind of right with suspecting Eva didn't reach the Golden Land in EP3, but how can you explain what happened in EP5 if Erika and Battler didn't reach the gold?
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2012-09-09, 02:20 | Link #30450 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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"Lack of objective narrator" is certainly possible, but it seems to smack every notion of common sense in the face. Yeah, that was all very interesting. Obviously, it was being presented to US in two ways - the way it probably happened in reality, and the way Maria chose to interpret that reality. And then in EP5 we got Natsuhi's old diary's ... and in the next EP we're told that Kyrie kept a diary of sorts as well. At that point I just figured every woman in the cast was going to be revealed as having kept one, so it wasn't all that surprising when Eva's became a huge deal. Heck, if we had just gotten one from Rosa, it'd have been a Royal Mom Bitterness Flush..!! Quote:
Har, you know even though Knownomore's theory is kinda silly and crazy, I always DID like me a Rosa culprit theory. When I realy thought about it, she was the only one of the adults I could really "accept" as a culprit. |
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2012-09-09, 04:34 | Link #30451 | |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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It's funny how this guy is convinced that his theory is the real thing SO MUCH that he dismisses every opposition right off the bat and even makes fun of those who don't agree with him, while he's got no actual proof that the 'official solution' as he likes to call it is bullcrap and nothing to show for all the 'for some reason's that you need when desribing his theory. I have absolutely nothing against people who make theories, even wild theories about Umineko, some of them are even fun to read and that was kinda the point of keeping an open ending, however when he goes to such lengths to prove that his theory is the real truth (which doesn't make ANY sense at all and violates Knox, by the way) and everyone else is a bunch of stupid idiots who don't know what they're talking about honestly feels like not only he hasn't solved anything, but apparently that he's missed the real message of Umineko. Rosa was also my first theory. I could use her to explain the first three EPs. But I abandoned her partway through EP4. I agree, out of the four siblings, she's the one I'd like more as a culprit. But no, KnownNoMore is a different thing. Roses, Kuwadorian, ceremonies, George my ass.....
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2012-09-09, 05:17 | Link #30452 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Maybe from the point where that has happened, they can be pronounced dead by the red text. It was never stated to happen more than once. Quote:
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Though I guess a lot of people must have agreed with you since Ryu felt the need to kill her very early twice in a row. |
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2012-09-09, 06:08 | Link #30453 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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The Beato within Yasu would stop killing... but who said the MO19YA also have to stop killing? Since they're separate identities they can act ndependently. In the theories? Hum... I don't remember them exactly however it was more or less for: - the epitaph wasn't solved, the solution was handed to someone In Ep 3 Beato, in order to gain Eva as accomplice, handed her the solution of the epitaph. Ergo Eva didn't solve the epitaph on her own so her knowing the answer is unvalid to stop the murders. It was also proposed that Beato handed to Battler the solution in Ep 5 but honestly I don't remember the details of this one well. - someone else took Yasu's place and killed the people who were faking to be dead like it happens in Ep 6. The idea was that Yasu stopped killing as soon as the epitaph was solved but someone else ended up resuming the murders for his/her own purpose. In Ep 3 there was people who pointed at Eva as being the one who continued killing... Quote:
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2012-09-09, 06:12 | Link #30454 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room. At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!! Quote:
EP 1-4: ShKanon = 2 people, 1 body EP 5: ShKanon = 2 people, 2 bodies EP 6: ShKanon = 1 person, 1 body But I have difficulty accepting this because the whole concept of ShKanon only counting as 1 person seems to be the key point about the whole story that we're supposed to learn in EP6, so regardless of the issue of the number of bodies, the person count we get from ShKanon should remain consistent at 1 throughout all games. And in fact it was Beatrice in EP6, not Battler, that said the red that restricted ShKanon to counting as 1 person. And I'm not going to go down the road of 1 person, 2 bodies. This is why I can't agree with your interpretation of the ShKanon issue in EP5. Quote:
So I think the proper approach is start from the assumption that Ryukishi isn't incompetent and come up with the most satisfying explanation for the whole issue of ShKanon's personhood as possible. After all, it says in Umineko itself that you can't find an answer to Beatrice's enigma unless you trust that there is an answer. And that's how I came up with ShKanon Replacement Theory (just named it that now, but you're familiar with it; it's the idea where no more than one ShKanon can exist at a given time, but more than one can be "dead" at a given time). Of course that leads us to ShKanon only being 1 person in EP5 as well, which leads us to a "no objective narrator" interpretation for EP5. At least, I haven't heard of anything more satisfying yet. Of course, you can always just call it a day and chalk it up to Ryukishi's incompetence, but then it's certain that you'll never find an answer (assuming there is one!). |
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2012-09-09, 06:13 | Link #30455 | ||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Of course, Rosa was only one of many theories I had at first, but one of the most conclusive ones... Ah, those were good times, no Knox, no Dine, no fair..... (By the way, in KnownNoMore's explanation of the first twilight she uses some sort of unknown death drug to fake her death and splatters makeup on her face. And then she waits for the survivors to leave the scene and smashes the freakin' door to get out.... Seriously, what the...)
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2012-09-09, 06:46 | Link #30456 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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2012-09-09, 09:03 | Link #30457 | |||||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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By the way you make it sound as if it is just something related to Umineko while many theories in physic are based on assumptions. Actually one could say that the very scientific method is based on an assumption. Quote:
The whole discourse until that point was about commonalities between "Battler" and "Tohya" and "Yasu" and "Ikuko" to demonstrate which would be the case with more coincidential similarities. "Ikuko" in this case refers to the person that goes by that name and that is presented with the specific sprite of Ikuko. No assumption about her identity other than that was made. "Yasu didn't do it" refers to the fact that the one that we are certain (or that we both can agree that) is Yasu, didn't do that. Therefore a relation cannot be established. To make a comparison it's as if I said that Battler and Tohya are the same person because they are both amnesiacs. You'll be well entitled to argue at that point that excluding Tohya\Battler (whose identity is being argued) we cannot say that Battler was an amnesiac at all. For the same reason excluding Ikuko\Yasu (whose identity is being argued) we cannot say that Yasu ever adopted an amnesiac nor that there is a hint that she would do that. I hope it's clear now. As a side note, just to be sure, I will not accept any kind of argument on the line: "If you do not accept my assumption that Yasu is Ikuko then you automatically assume she's not!" This kind of reasoning would deny the fact that it's possible to make reasonings with unknown variables. Quote:
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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jointly What it means is that both parties involved in the discussion must agree that the premises (or the premise if it's one) are true. Anyway I think I demonstrated that it is perfecly legit in english to state that a "logic is invalid" even in those cases where the fallacy is purely informal. Because even if you say that a specific termonology would require you to rather say that the "logic is unsound", it is a fact that "valid" and "sound" are generally treated as synonim. Quote:
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Anyway if you are arguing that Tohya isn't Battler, then you can no longer say that a number pun must definitely implicate that the characters involved are the exact same person.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2012-09-09 at 10:47. |
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2012-09-09, 09:14 | Link #30458 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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It also looks way faster and generally easier than getting the 4 missing episodes of the visual novel and read them all. Plus who's asking is often someone who had seen the anime only so he/she might be willing to watch a second anime series but not be interested in reading a long tale... especially if they don't know about Witch Hunt's awesome job at translating it. Another keypoint is that who read the visual novel might know the importance of reading it while who hasn't... likely doesn't. Since I've also started with the anime I know the feeling of thinking that a summary of the second part might solve everything and it was thanks to a friend who was into the visual novel and told me a couple of things about how great was the visual novel compared to the anime and how a mere summary couldn't just cover it all that I decided to read the visual novel (my first visual novel by the way). So I think that everyone who's unfamiliar with visual novels and gets to know Umineko by the anime is more prone to ask for a summary than decide to go through the visual novel. Of course this doesn't apply to everyone but probably to a good amount of the anime viewers. |
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2012-09-09, 09:51 | Link #30460 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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This would mean banning not just Umineko but a lot of anime... as out of late anime I'm ending up seeing more and more anime that only cover a part of a story (sometimes well, sometimes... -_-) and that push casual viewers to ask for summaries of 'what follow after' to the fandoms. Not mentioning a case where a fandom decided that the anime was... sort of the main canon and the manga on which it was based was... well of secondary importance. Though luckily the fandom attitude had changed over the years... |
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