Will HDTV Protection affect fansubbing?

[frowndog]

Originally Posted by Breogan

These forums are not just Fansub forums. They are also anime (you can discuss licensed anime in the proper section), music and manga forums.

I have to agree with Kaorimoch on this one though. Yes, this forum does have non-fansub related content (the DVD forums, Suggestions, Music, General Chat, etc) BUT, and this is a very BIG but, we have been brought together here by an interest in FANSUBS and its acquistion through BITTORRENT.

So, basically, you have a situation where people who flame fansubs are coming to a forum composed of people who come together because of an interest not only in fansubs, but in acquiring them through p2p thereby validating Kaorimoch's thesis

And no, I do not think fansubbing is a God-given right and if fansubs were suddenly and miraculously to cease distribution, i'd be annoyed but i'd go on with my life.

[vio5555]

Originally Posted by babbito2k

This is too general a condemnation. Not every anime ever made is going to be licensed in the US - even in a scenario where all upcoming series are already licensed there will always be a niche for fansub groups who present an older series. Fansubs still have an impact on which shows get licensed by creating interest - if a show gets licensed 3 years after it is broadcast the fansub groups shouldn't be retroactively castigated for what they did to create a market for the show. Fansubs are not the only potentially limitless alternative to buying DVDs due to the availability of DVD rips, the blame for which can hardly be laid at the feet of fansub groups.

I'll agree with you that in the case of anime that will never be licensed in the US are fair game for fansubbing as that is the only way to obtain them here, however, my argument was aimed at the fansubbing of upcoming series that we all know will be licensed, like Gunslinger Girl, Chrno Crusade, Gravion Zwei, Initial D 4th Stage, GITS:SAC 2, etc. and we are actually hurting U.S. companies now because they are involved in the financing and creation of some of these shows in Japan.

My question to you is, do we need fansubs to generate interest for sequels or even shows that are bound to be popular. For example, the people who will buy Gravion Zwei are buying the Gravion dvds, hence the show does not need fansubs because it will come here eventually, as is case especially for GITS:SAC 2 and Initial D 4th Stage. Chrno Crusade does not need 15 groups fansubbing it to generate interest. Maybe obscure series do need fansubs, however, the mainstream shows that will be licensed soon like FMPF or Onegai Twins, and all of the ones listed above do NOT need fansubs to generate interest.

Also, and far more importantly, you can't justify an illegal activity with one positive by-product (i.e. the generation of interest in a series).

DVD-rips are not an issue here because they come out AFTER the series is out on dvd, however, the problem of dvd-rips of anime is simply not mainstream. Most, if not all, of the anime on Kazaa are fansubs, most of the anime on bt are fansubs, most of the anime shared on irc are fansubs; thus dvd-rips are a much smaller part of the problem. The proof for this statement, is that most dvd-rip torrents of series rarely reach more than 3000 dls, whereas sequels to some of these shows reach well over 20,000 as if you check trackers for torrents of these shows: Onegai Teacher/Twins and FMP vs FMPF, you'll see proof of that assertion.

Here's a conjecture based on torrents such as the one above, I'd say that dvd-rips are about 10% of the distribution of a series, whereas 90% of the distribution comes from fansubs. Assuming that those 10% of people will make hard copies on discs, etc. is very high, although the amount of people who keep fansubs is probably high, but I'll say that 50% of people who dl fansubs keep them on optical storage and don't buy dvds (thats probably a low estimate but you'll get the point). If thats the case, then dvd-rips are probably below 20% of the optical storage, whereas fansubs are responsible for 80% of the storage after dvds for a series come out.

Combine these results with the fact that fansubs are clearly more distributed than dvd-rips EVEN AFTER a series is licensed, like gundams, fmp, chobits being on kazaa etc. DVD-rips are thus a non-issue because they are generally not mainstream, are produced by very few groups compared to fansubs, and have very low distribution rates due to their enormous size on even bt and their lack of a presence on main downloading p2p schemes. Also, and perhaps most importantly, we don't have control over dvd-rippers and don't share their stuff, whereas fansubbers are obviously relevant here.

Also, I don't think I ever blamed fansubbing groups for dvd-rips. I simply think that due to the easily accessible nature of fansubs on the internet, they are currently the clear and potentially limitless alternative to dvds right now, whereas dvd-rips are not prevalent enough, very few groups make them relatively, and are too large to be distributed widely and thus be a widesweeping alternative to dvds.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I have seen many people make this argument before. But, what I am more interested in is the solution to the problem. See, I would propose that the problem is not the demand itself (in a free-market economy, demand is always a potential positive); the problem is that, in this case, the demand is not being met a legal and ethical way.

You are proposing that the problem with fansubbing is that it creates a demand and then immediately satisfies that demand, thus creating greater demand. It is thus a self-perpetuating demand, also known as an addiction cycle. There are two ways for a free-market economy to react to this problem:

1. Try to kill the addiction cycle. (Case in point here would be the RIAA)
2. Find a way to profit from the addiction cycle. (Case in point here would be tobacco companies, for lack of a better example)

In this case, thankfully, this addiction is relatively harmless, so in an ideal world, someone would have already figured out how to profit from this trend. That is what I am missing in this whole argument. People can argue forever about the ethics of fansubbing, but so long as the demand is not being met in any other sensible and comparable way, the practice will continue. (I would argue that R1 DVDs are not a comparable substitute for the practice of fansubbing, and it's not just about the price.) If it's a self-perpetuating addiction to marketable products, the only sensible way for companies to react is to try to profit from it. (Will they be that perceptive though? That's the real question.)

So, in response to the main thread, no, HDTV protection won't seriously affect fansubbing, because the demand is still there and is not being met in any other way. The only thing that will truly end the majority of fansubbing is when the demand is being met in a *better* way. I would argue that it's in the best interests the companies to *be* that better way.

Note: This is not an attempt to rationalize fansubbing - it is clearly illegal under international law, and is, at best, ethically questionable (most especially for series that are surely going to be licensed). However, villifying the demand doesn't get us any closer to a solution.

I think you bring up a good point, which is that the demand should be dealt with in a better (hopefully more legal) way, however let me play the devil's advocate here and say that the problem with companies trying to fulfill the demand is TIME. Fansubs are released days after an episode airs, whereas a company takes months after the air date to release it. For them to successfully close the demand, they would have to deter the fans from subbing the anime, which would be to somehow speed up the release dates as they have been rather successful in lowering from a matter of years to around 1 year, however the fact that this is still not quickly enough is the problem. Fans would be deterred from subbing an anime if they knew they could buy it in a matter of weeks rather than many months, or could somehow watch subbed versions on satellite tv or something. I would say that if American companies financing the Japanese companies could somehow have satellite anime channels it might just work, in which people could choose whether to watch with subtitles or not; the problem is that anime is not mainstream enough yet to warrant such a solution profitable, and thus it falls to the first alternative: companies must somehow satisfy the demand by removing the enormous time lag, which for the fansubbers is the most important reason they're doing it; as fans they generally buy dvds and thus money is not the issue, but rather time is the major problem.

Sway: merged the double post.

[Joe]

So... I guess you won't help, would you?

xDDD

(Just joking)

[Doddler]

Originally Posted by vio5555

I think you bring up a good point, which is that the demand should be dealt with in a better (hopefully more legal) way, however let me play the devil's advocate here and say that the problem with companies trying to fulfill the demand is TIME. Fansubs are released days after an episode airs, whereas a company takes months after the air date to release it.

I wonder though, if a localization company had the rights to a show before it started airing, if they subtitled the eps (like fansubbers) and released it online in streaming format that you had to pay say, $1 (available for only a few days or in one of those formats that stop working after a viewing) wether it would ACTUALLY have an effect on the fansub community. Its legal, its timely, its just like the japanese TV broadcast... but how many people here are here just because the anime is free? Makes you wonder.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Doddler

I wonder though, if a localization company had the rights to a show before it started airing, if they subtitled the eps (like fansubbers) and released it online in streaming format that you had to pay say, $1 (available for only a few days or in one of those formats that stop working after a viewing) wether it would ACTUALLY have an effect on the fansub community. Its legal, its timely, its just like the japanese TV broadcast... but how many people here are here just because the anime is free? Makes you wonder.

This is exactly what I am suggesting. "If you can't beat them, join them." Any money they do make would be "gravy" in the sense that it is money that they aren't making now, and the costs would be quite low. Having a clear, equivalent, and legal alternative would put the "ethics of fansubbing" argument to rest, at least for those series that are licensed in this way.

Speaking for myself, I would gladly pay a few dollars for each fansub I've downloaded - it's well worth it. In fact, what I would propose is that they have two prices - one price to watch it once (streamed?), and one price to keep it (download?). Perhaps the bigger companies, like ADV, could offer a monthly subscription system or something, who knows. The point is, nobody has ever tried to do anything like this before. Maybe there isn't enough of a market to support it yet, and until there is fansubbing as it is now can probably continue to exist. But, once the market reaches critical mass, there's no reason why a company shouldn't jump in and provide legal subbed anime over the Internet.

As you say, there are some people who are here just because its free; it's pretty much impossible to figure out how many. But, those people are what's giving the fansub community a bad name in some circles. As a fan of anime, my primary interest is ensuring that quality anime continues to be made so that other people (and myself) can continue to enjoy it. The only way to do that is if we can find some way to financially compensate the creators, publishers, and licensors for their work. Fansubbing is walking a dangerous line between "fandom" and "piracy" as it stands - I hope we can find a way to stay more on the "fan" side of that equation. I would argue that true fans would be willing to pay a fair price for a good product.

[microlith]

But, once the market reaches critical mass, there's no reason why a company shouldn't jump in and provide legal subbed anime over the Internet.

Because anything distributed online has to compete with Free.

This is very hard to do, and the only company that's really making any headway on this is Apple and iTunes. I'm not sure how the other services are doing but iTunes is in the lead and it's still an order of magnitude smaller than all the P2P warez networks.

What we have, in any case, is a point where digital-only distribution provides little to no advantage over just buying the DVD. Considering that you exchange mastering, pressing, packaging, shipping costs for storage, bandwidth, and tech support costs (look at the forums here!), it wouldn't be much cheaper. People interested in purchasing anime distributed online are probably a super-tiny subset of all anime fans.

If you want to support anime as it is now, and its continued existence, just buy the legitimate, licensed DVDs. In the grand scheme of anime-licensing things, eventually money spent on R1 DVDs goes back to the Japanese companies and helps (nay, encourages) them create more.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by microlith

Because anything distributed online has to compete with Free.

This is very hard to do, and the only company that's really making any headway on this is Apple and iTunes. I'm not sure how the other services are doing but iTunes is in the lead and it's still an order of magnitude smaller than all the P2P warez networks.

That is true enough right now (even Apple is losing tons of money on their online store right now, but is making up for it in increased iPod sales). However, it also assumes that this will always be the case. I would venture to predict that, in a few years time, the legitimate online marketplace for digital media will become just as important as the traditional/physical marketplace. But, as with any predication, we can only wait and see, I guess...

Originally Posted by microlith

What we have, in any case, is a point where digital-only distribution provides little to no advantage over just buying the DVD. Considering that you exchange mastering, pressing, packaging, shipping costs for storage, bandwidth, and tech support costs (look at the forums here!), it wouldn't be much cheaper. People interested in purchasing anime distributed online are probably a super-tiny subset of all anime fans.

In addition to the point I made above (this may be true now, but may not be true always), there are other advantages to digital distribution even if there were no explicit cost advantage. Time-to-release is certainly one of them, and also ease-of-distribution (some of the main advantages of fansubbing, in my opinion, as I pointed out in an earlier post). As broadband becomes more available, the potential market for digital media is only increasing. Besides, digital distribution, at least in the short-term, needn't be "digital only". In most cases, the sub made for the digital release could be re-used on the DVD release, etc.

Originally Posted by microlith

If you want to support anime as it is now, and its continued existence, just buy the legitimate, licensed DVDs. In the grand scheme of anime-licensing things, eventually money spent on R1 DVDs goes back to the Japanese companies and helps (nay, encourages) them create more.

Of course, as it stands right now, that is the bottom line. If you watch a series on fansub, you need to buy it if it gets licensed, and right now DVD is the only option for that. Personally, though, I would rather not have to go through the wait, hassle, and shipping costs associated with having DVDs sent to me, since the digital fansubs are perfectly okay by me. I suspect that, if this "downloading thing" catches on commercially, many others will see things the same way... but we'll have to wait and see. If the interest in downloading anime remains small, though, than the fansub community as it is exists now is no threat, and can continue to go on indefinitely.

Anyways, I have led this topic down a slightly different path, and for that I apologize. I'm just trying to look beyond the short-term, and see the bigger picture as we head into the future. Of course, nobody can know what will happen, but it's good to talk about it.

[microlith]

You also have to consider, that the Japanese would not appreciate the US companies moving into a market before they do.

I imagine you'll only see online sales of anime (if ever) after the Japanese have moved into the area. And I imagine there'll be agreements and restrictions on what they can sell, most likely dub-only.

The Japanese are strange though, and they may prohibit online sales of anime outright. Personally I see no point in paying $x for a crappy video file when I can get a pressed DVD for $30 - $15, which is the best price range around (better than Japan.)

[Doddler]

Originally Posted by microlith

You also have to consider, that the Japanese would not appreciate the US companies moving into a market before they do.

I imagine you'll only see online sales of anime (if ever) after the Japanese have moved into the area. And I imagine there'll be agreements and restrictions on what they can sell, most likely dub-only.

The Japanese are strange though, and they may prohibit online sales of anime outright. Personally I see no point in paying $x for a crappy video file when I can get a pressed DVD for $30 - $15, which is the best price range around (better than Japan.)

Thats not entirely true. There are several companies in japan that release thier anime online. Some companies, like PC-Moe (Steel Angel Kurumi, Hanaukyo maids, rizelmine) broadcast some of thier anime online ONLY, and release DVD's like regular companies do. In some cases the internet broadcast is free, but usually there's a small fee associated with it (pretty cheap, a dollar or two). They're also available for only about a week, if you want to see it again, you'll wait for the DVD release. So some companies *do* use this sort of marketing already. I figure it would be a good idea to carry it over here.

Also though, you have to consider that currently north american companies are in a stalemate with fansubs. If they made a move to meet the demand for anime as it was released from japan, the companies could then make a move against the fansubbers of thier series without seriously damaging thier name. If they're offering anime like its offered on television in japan, the main point in the defence of fansubs gets shot down (atleast for those shows anyways).

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by microlith

Personally I see no point in paying $x for a crappy video file when I can get a pressed DVD for $30 - $15, which is the best price range around (better than Japan.)

I'm not complaining at all about the price or quality of DVDs - as I said before, I do buy them and all. But stop thinking about "today" for a second, and think about a few years from now. By then, it will be totally feasible (and common) to have HDTV-quality video downloads. Even today, I personally would rather purchase a DVD-quality video file for download and burn my own DVD, since it's a lot more convenient for me. I think this will become more popular, much like downloading music became popular, simply because it's so much more convenient. No going to the store, no waiting for orders to be processed and shipped, no worrying about dealing with couriers or signing for packages... Downloading is easy, it's as fast as your bandwidth allows, and it's perfectly fine (by me at least). If the online music stores do eventually find a way to be profitable on their own merit, then we can take the same concept and extend it to other forms of media, anime included.

As for whether or not any of this will ever actually happen... who knows. I think it *could* happen, and that it *could* work out well... but this is all just my personal opinion. I just think it would be a lot smarter for the industry to focus their energies on coming up with something productive and proactive like this rather than wasting a ton of money in "protectionist" activities (like the HDTV protection talked about in this topic). If the RIAA had taken all the money they've spent trying to stop people from downloading music and used it to find ways to make themselves the cornerstone of the music downloading market, they'd be a lot richer now. I think other industries can learn from their mistakes. Will they learn, though? That's a good question.

Edit: Correction: Downloading isn't "instant" yet, but it's as fast as your bandwidth will allow.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Doddler

Also though, you have to consider that currently north american companies are in a stalemate with fansubs. If they made a move to meet the demand for anime as it was released from japan, the companies could then make a move against the fansubbers of thier series without seriously damaging thier name. If they're offering anime like its offered on television in japan, the main point in the defence of fansubs gets shot down (atleast for those shows anyways).

Exactly, this is what I am suggesting. They are not at a real "stalemate" though, they are simply stalling. If they did make a move like I am suggesting (providing legal subs for purchase & download shortly after the anime airs in Japan), it would radically change the fansubbing world as we know it today. But, since I am primarily an anime fan, and not explicitly a fansub fan, I would welcome the move if it is done in a fair manner.

[Loki_Sama]

Originally Posted by Breogan

Pasting the translation here too since it seems this was crossposted from the Fansub forum and it was closed there. It would be something like this:



On a side note, Frozen-Layer is the equivalent of AnimeSuki for the spanish fansub community.

Muy bien traducido

[Dikarika]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Exactly, this is what I am suggesting. They are not at a real "stalemate" though, they are simply stalling. If they did make a move like I am suggesting (providing legal subs for purchase & download shortly after the anime airs in Japan), it would radically change the fansubbing world as we know it today. But, since I am primarily an anime fan, and not explicitly a fansub fan, I would welcome the move if it is done in a fair manner.

I'd purchase any subtitled anime if quality (ie not "americanized") subs would come out. If you can't take the time to read or understand japanese culture then stop watching anime. Disney make plenty of american cartoons for the unwashed masses. Dubs and bad american subtitles kill anime. I long for the days when Dragonball and DBZ were underground and fansubbed. It was a happier time then, and DBZ wasn't crappified... Now i see the same thing happening to DBGT, its very sad. If you don't belive me, watch the Initial D battle 1 DVD in "tricked out" mode... Oh crap it sucks so bad.....

[method]

Originally Posted by Dikarika

I'd purchase any subtitled anime if quality (ie not "americanized") subs would come out. If you can't take the time to read or understand japanese culture then stop watching anime. Disney make plenty of american cartoons for the unwashed masses. Dubs and bad american subtitles kill anime. I long for the days when Dragonball and DBZ were underground and fansubbed. It was a happier time then, and DBZ wasn't crappified... Now i see the same thing happening to DBGT, its very sad. If you don't belive me, watch the Initial D battle 1 DVD in "tricked out" mode... Oh crap it sucks so bad.....

My my my aren't you just the voice of reason.

[microlith]

I'd purchase any subtitled anime if quality (ie not "americanized") subs would come out. If you can't take the time to read or understand japanese culture then stop watching anime.

Here's a good example of a fool elitist who thinks they're the be-all and end-all of anime fandom.

Anime was created as entertainment people, not as something to be wholly obsessed over. Most people don't want to have to understand an entire culture just to get some joke.

And 95% of subs on DVDs are perfectly fine. Which is better than I can say for many fansubs, personally.

[Go-lytely]

Originally Posted by microlith

I'd purchase any subtitled anime if quality (ie not "americanized") subs would come out. If you can't take the time to read or understand japanese culture then stop watching anime.

Here's a good example of a fool elitist who thinks they're the be-all and end-all of anime fandom.

Anime was created as entertainment people, not as something to be wholly obsessed over. Most people don't want to have to understand an entire culture just to get some joke.

And 95% of subs on DVDs are perfectly fine. Which is better than I can say for many fansubs, personally.

Totally agree. The original poster obviously hasnt watched enough dvd's because more and more companies are actually trying to appeal to the elitist fans, ie. leaving some japanese words untranslated.

[Teh Roman Helmet]

I just thought that I would say that the decryption thing is at 47.91% right now on February 16, at 4:18 est.

[zalas]

Originally Posted by Teh Roman Helmet

I just thought that I would say that the decryption thing is at 47.91% right now on February 16, at 4:18 est.

Now just watch the satellite companies not implement it and/or change the algorithm

[outlaw55]

It would NOT cut off fansubs, there is still STANDARD ANALOG signals runing for ppl that can't afford HDTV, you would just see the digital crisp picture for some shows that ppl have become used to change to crappy analog picture much like the raws we at lunar had for Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien...

[SirCanealot]

Originally Posted by zalas

Now just watch the satellite companies not implement it and/or change the algorithm

Heh, if it were that easy, I don't think they'd be bothering.

As far as I know, most TV will be moving to HDTV around when they activate this chip, meaning anime WONT be shown on normal analog TV. The whole issue is rather confusing though, so I'm not sure about any of it.