[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Hmm.. this is strange behavior.

1) Krauss said he was going to retire for the night.
2) Genji had no reason to return to the dining room.

Krauss heard the knock as well! After hearing the knock he went to Genji's room to ask him about it. Genji had no idea so they both went down to investigate.

Well this is certainly not what we have been shown, because Kanon was supposed to be the one who opened the door.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

I'm not sure I agree with that interpetation. It looks like it should be treated as two separate sentences to me.
つまり、実際にあの扉を叩いたノック音を、全員は正確に識別した。
絶対に聞き間違えないということよ。

In other words, as for the knocking sound of someone actually striking the door, all of them correctly distinguished it.
None of them could have misheard it.

That is, it's not that they "were capable of distinguishing it", but there was a specific instance where they "did distinguish it". But I guess that does still leave some wiggle room, in that everyone in the dining room could have heard something knock-like and realized it wasn't a knock. Seems pretty shaky to me though.

Well, let's assume for the moment that the knock didn't happen. In that case we should probably be doubtful about the letter too, since there really isn't anything supporting its existence other than the knock, and nobody in the mansion at midnight touched it. In that case, where did Battler get the ring from?

Now that I think about it though... The ring was in one of Kinzo's envelopes. Was there a wax seal on the envelope? And if there was, how did it get there when the ring was inside the envelope?

LOL! That's a actually a very interesting point you noticed! XD

I can humbly state that there is absolutely no way to seal a letter with the genuine family head's ring if the aforementioned ring is inside the letter!

But to be honest I don't remember if it was stated that that letter was sealed. If it wasn't, however, there was no way to determine Kinzo himself wrote the message. Although the ring inside could be considered a proof in itself...

As for the letter, I thought from the start that the trick was in the fact nobody dropped the letter in front of the door. In this case you don't even need to state that whole scene was fake. If Kanon had the letter all along and only faked to pick it up, then you can easily explain this mystery.

Now for the sentence. In the original there isn't a period there, only a comma.
Unless I'm completely wrong, neither "seikaku" nor "shikibetsu" are verbs. Therefore that part between commas acts as a specification of the verb that is shown later.
Of course I might be wrong, I'm really no expert, but right now that's how I see it.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

LOL! That's a actually a very interesting point you noticed! XD

I can humbly state that there is absolutely no way to seal a letter with the genuine family head's ring if the aforementioned ring is inside the letter!

Hot wax was carefully applied to the flap of the envelope while it was held open, the ring was gently pressed into it to create the image, and the wax seal was carefully pried off the surface and the envelope was closed!

Now you just need to explain why a person not aware of the meta-world would bother. Fastidiousness?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As for the letter, I thought from the start that the trick was in the fact nobody dropped the letter in front of the door. In this case you don't even need to state that whole scene was fake. If Kanon had the letter all along and only faked to pick it up, then you can easily explain this mystery.

Ah, good point. In that case, instead of a knock getting Kanon to open the door, he could just have made up a reason to leave the room. But if there was a knock after all, then why wouldn't the knocker just leave the letter themselves? Because of that, I think we can still decide the scene was false.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Now for the sentence. In the original there isn't a period there, only a comma.
Unless I'm completely wrong, neither "seikaku" nor "shikibetsu" are verbs. Therefore that part between commas acts as a specification of the verb that is shown later.
Of course I might be wrong, I'm really no expert, but right now that's how I see it.

Yes, I just put the period there to make it clear what the separate clauses were. "Seikaku" is a na-adjective, but "seikaku ni" is an adverb. Also, "shikibetsu" is a noun, but "shikibetsu suru" is a verb, and "shikibetsu shi" is the conjunctive form of that verb, which you can use to join clauses.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well this is certainly not what we have been shown, because Kanon was supposed to be the one who opened the door.

I don't see what contradicts what we were shown. Here is a theory for the series of events:

11:49pm Genji, Krauss, Natsuhi and the others are in the dining room.
~11:54pm - Genji, Krauss, and Natsuhi leave the dining room.
~11:55pm - Natsuhi and Krauss talk the hallway.
11:58pm - Genji interrupts the conversation and seperates Krauss and Natsuhi
11:59pm - Genji informs Natsuhi of the call then heads to his room. Natsuhi goes to take the call privately in her room.
11:59pm - The Knock
midnight - Krauss hears the knock and wonders if Genji did it. He checks to see if Genji returned to his room first.
midnight - Back in the dining room Kanon opens the door and finds the envelope.
12:01am - Genji is in his room and Krauss asks him if he heard the knock. Genji doesn't know anything so they both head downstairs to check it out.
12:01am - Rudolf opens the envelope and contents are a letter and Kinzo's ring.
12:03am - Battler wears on the ring.
12:04am - Krauss and Genji return to the dining room and see Battler wearing the ring.
Sometime before 1am - Genji returns to his room.
1:00am - Eva places a seal on Genji's room.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Ah, good point. In that case, instead of a knock getting Kanon to open the door, he could just have made up a reason to leave the room. But if there was a knock after all, then why wouldn't the knocker just leave the letter themselves? Because of that, I think we can still decide the scene was false.

It's a good theory that Kanon was the one who left the envelope.

I still haven't seen any proof that the knock was false though.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Ssol

I don't see what contradicts what we were shown. Here is a theory for the series of events:

11:49pm Genji, Krauss, Natsuhi and the others are in the dining room.
~11:54pm - Genji, Krauss, and Natsuhi leave the dining room.
~11:55pm - Natsuhi and Krauss talk the hallway.
11:58pm - Genji interrupts the conversation and seperates Krauss and Natsuhi
11:59pm - Genji informs Natsuhi of the call then heads to his room. Natsuhi goes to take the call privately in her room.
11:59pm - The Knock
midnight - Krauss hears the knock and wonders if Genji did it. He checks to see if Genji returned to his room first.
midnight - Back in the dining room Kanon opens the door and finds the envelope.
12:01am - Genji is in his room and Krauss asks him if he heard the knock. Genji doesn't know anything so they both head downstairs to check it out.
12:01am - Rudolf opens the envelope and contents are a letter and the Kinzo's ring.
12:03am - Battler wears on the ring.
12:04am - Krauss and Genji return to the dining room and see Battler wearing the ring.
Sometime before 1am - Genji returns to his room.
1:00am - Eva places a seal on Genji's room.

At midnight, Krauss and Genji are in the second-floor hallway, along with Natsuhi, so there is no reason for Krauss to think that Genji is the source of the knock, even if he heard it.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

At midnight, Krauss and Genji are in the second-floor hallway, along with Natsuhi, so there is no reason for Krauss to think that Genji is the source of the knock, even if he heard it.

Then perhaps he went to Genji's room to simply ask if he heard the knock as well.

I don't pretend to know the reason but unless the scene is false, Krauss had to have met Genji after he returned to his room and they both went back down to the dining room for some reason.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Then perhaps he went to Genji's room to simply ask if he heard the knock as well.

I don't pretend to know the reason but unless the scene is false, Krauss had to have met Genji after he returned to his room and they both went back down to the dining room for some reason.

Agreed. But at the very least, if the timeline of events was not falsified, the knock cannot be the reason Genji and Krauss went to the dining room. The knock supposedly took place just before midnight, but we were shown what Krauss, Genji, and Natsuhi were doing at that time, and they didn't hear anything out of the ordinary before the clock started to chime. That's even if we ignore the issue of whether the knock occurred at a different time or didn't occur at all.

The waiting room is on the third floor next to Kinzo's room. If we accept the timeline we were shown, there's a four-minute window starting at midnight in which Genji goes from the second floor hallway to the third floor servants' room, transfers the man from 19 years ago to Natsuhi's phone, meets up with Krauss, and then goes back to the first floor dining room. That's a pretty tight schedule, to the point that if this actually happened, I'd think that Genji and Krauss were planning to return to the dining room together from the beginning.

[Jan-Poo]

11:49pm Genji, Krauss, Natsuhi and the others are in the dining room.
~11:54pm - Genji, Krauss, and Natsuhi leave the dining room.
~11:55pm - Natsuhi and Krauss talk the hallway.
11:58pm - Genji interrupts the conversation and seperates Krauss and Natsuhi
11:59pm - Genji informs Natsuhi of the call then heads to his room. Natsuhi goes to take the call privately in her room.
11:59pm - The Knock
midnight - Krauss hears the knock and wonders if Genji did it. He checks to see if Genji returned to his room first.
midnight - Back in the dining room Kanon opens the door and finds the envelope.
12:01am - Genji is in his room and Krauss asks him if he heard the knock. Genji doesn't know anything so they both head downstairs to check it out.
12:01am - Rudolf opens the envelope and contents are a letter and Kinzo's ring.
12:03am - Battler wears on the ring.
12:04am - Krauss and Genji return to the dining room and see Battler wearing the ring.
Sometime before 1am - Genji returns to his room.
1:00am - Eva places a seal on Genji's room.

Are you aware of how messed up is this reconstruction?

- First off there is no reason to think Genji was in the dining room at 11:49.
- You are completely forgetting that according to what we have been shown, Krauss, Genji and Natsuhi hear the clock at the time they are in the hallway of the second floor
- regardless of the fact the clock was telling the right hour, the people in the dining room heard the clock after hearing the knock

if it was impossible for them to misheard a knock then it is impossible that they heard a different clock or a fake clock. All the persons in the mansion heard the same clock at the same time.

This means that you must either accept that what we have been shown was completely false or that it is impossible that krauss was inside the dining room at the time the knock was heard.

-The one that opened the door was Kanon. If Krauss opened or passed through the door he would have been the one to notice the letter. Regadless of that what we have been shown tells us that at that time Krauss wasn't there. And he wasn't there even during the whole conversation involving the discussion of the letter.

EDIT:

at the stroke of midnight, besides Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the 2nd floor hallway and everyone in the dining room, absolutely no other humans existed inside the mansion.

This actually proves that at the stroke of midnight Krauss Natsuhi and Genji were all on the 2nd floor.

I add something else to this discussion.

The only reason Kanon and Shannon were invited to stay in the dining room was because the family discussion was suspended, and the adults wanted to chat with them for a while. Once the family meeting restarted there was absolutely no reasons for Kanon and Shannon to stay there. I'll say this: it is impossible that adults left them assist to the important family discussion, they had absolutely no voice on the matter. Even if the red truth says noone left the dining room before 1:00, Kanon and Shannon weren't supposed to stay there so there is definitely something wrong!

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

- First off there is no reason to think Genji was in the dining room at 11:49.

During the dining room scene the begins at 11:49 Rosa asks Genji to bring something to drink for everyone and cold medicine for her.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

- You are completely forgetting that according to what we have been shown, Krauss, Genji and Natsuhi hear the clock at the time they are in the hallway of the third floor

Of course they heard the clock. Are you able to quote me where I wrote that they did not hear the clock?

I don't have a good explanation for Krauss and Genji's behavior though.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

-The one that opened the door was Kanon. If Krauss opened or passed through the door he would have been the one to notice the letter. Regadless of that what we have been shown tells us that at that time Krauss wasn't there. And he wasn't there even during the whole conversation involving the discussion of the letter.

What red text says that the door was only opened one time?
1) Kanon opened the door just after midnight and received the envelope.
2) Krauss and Genji entered the dining room at 12:04.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

at the stroke of midnight, besides Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the 2nd floor hallway and everyone in the dining room, absolutely no other humans existed inside the mansion.

This actually proves that at the stroke of midnight Krauss Natsuhi and Genji were all on the 2nd floor.

I agree, but this does not conflict with what I wrote because they were on the way to their rooms but still in the hallway.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I add something else to this discussion.

The only reason Kanon and Shannon were invited to stay in the dining room was because the family discussion was suspended, and the adults wanted to chat with them for a while. Once the family meeting restarted there was absolutely no reasons for Kanon and Shannon to stay there. I'll say this: it is impossible that adults left them assist to the important family discussion, they had absolutely no voice on the matter. Even if the red truth says noone left the dining room before 1:00, Kanon and Shannon weren't supposed to stay there so there is definitely something wrong!

I agree, there's no reason for Kanon and Shannon to stay in the dining room. Good observation.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Ssol

During the dining room scene the begins at 11:49 Rosa asks Genji to bring something to drink for everyone and cold medicine for her.

Okay one point for you ^^;

Originally Posted by Ssol

Of course they heard the clock. Are you able to quote me where I wrote that they did not hear the clock?

I don't have a good explanation for Krauss and Genji's behavior though.

You should read this scene again. The sound effect for the knock is done twice and then, after that, the clock is heard.

And what did I say? °° After they hear the knock the clock is heard. Krauss was on the second floor at that time so he couldn't hear the knock. Even if he did, at that time Genji was in front of him.

Originally Posted by Ssol

What red text says that the door was only opened one time?
1) Kanon opened the door just after midnight and received the envelope.
2) Krauss and Genji entered the dining room at 12:04.

I was assuming that according to you Krauss was inside the room at the time of the knock. If he wasn't then he would have gone to the door itself. It is impossible that he went to Genji before checking the door itself. If Krauss checked the door, then he would have seen the letter, in that case he would have stayed there checking the content of that suspicious letter.

I agree, but this does not conflict with what I wrote because they were on the way to their rooms but still in the hallway

Didn't you wrote that natsuhi was in her room at that time?

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And what did I say? °° After they hear the knock the clock is heard. Krauss was on the second floor at that time so he couldn't hear the knock. Even if he did, at that time Genji was in front of him.

Sorry, I tried to edit that mistake out but you responded quickly
I think at the stroke of midnight Genji was in the hall heading to the waiting room.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I was assuming that according to you Krauss was inside the room at the time of the knock. If he wasn't then he would have gone to the door itself. It is impossible that he went to Genji before checking the door itself. If Krauss checked the door, then he would have seen the letter, in that case he would have stayed there checking the content of that suspicious letter.

I agree, I don't think Krauss heard the knock anymore. But then, if the scene is true, why would he meet with Genji and head to the dining room with him?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Didn't you wrote that natsuhi was in her room at that time?

I didn't write that or didn't mean to write that. At the stroke of midnight Natsuhi was in the hall heading to her room.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The only reason Kanon and Shannon were invited to stay in the dining room was because the family discussion was suspended, and the adults wanted to chat with them for a while. Once the family meeting restarted there was absolutely no reasons for Kanon and Shannon to stay there. I'll say this: it is impossible that adults left them assist to the important family discussion, they had absolutely no voice on the matter. Even if the red truth says noone left the dining room before 1:00, Kanon and Shannon weren't supposed to stay there so there is definitely something wrong!

You know, that's an excellent point. The red does require that at midnight, Kanon and Shannon were in the dining room, and none of the people who were in the dining room (at midnight) left until 1am, so we at least know that they were actually there. In that case, should we assume that whatever the people in the dining room were talking about between midnight and 1am, it had nothing to do with the argument over the headship? Or should we think that some important information regarding the headship issue emerged that required them to be involved?

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Genji and Krauss were planning to return to the dining room together from the beginning.

But they couldn't have gone straight to the dining room. Genji went straight to the waiting room after transferring the call to Natsuhi. Mabye he had to pick some item that was left in that room.

All this strange behavior makes me believe that Natsuhi is not the only one being manipulated. What if they all are being manipulated? There was no reason for Hideyoshi to go to the room where he ended up losing his life.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

You know, that's an excellent point. The red does require that at midnight, Kanon and Shannon were in the dining room, and none of the people who were in the dining room (at midnight) left until 1am, so we at least know that they were actually there. In that case, should we assume that whatever the people in the dining room were talking about between midnight and 1am, it had nothing to do with the argument over the headship? Or should we think that some important information regarding the headship issue emerged that required them to be involved?

If someone else is being manipulated other than Natsuhi then mabye someone brought it up during the conversation. They could have all decided to keep it a secret when Erika is around if they don't trust her. I don't believe the red text "Detective's authority. ……The detective has the right to inspect all crime scenes. Step aside, Ushiromiya Battler. This is a legitimate right recognized by the human side in this game." is what causes everyone to accept Erika and not question her actions.

[Ithekro]

There is always that chances there are two rings. One for the master of the house and one for the mistress of the house.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

There is always that chances there are two rings. One for the master of the house and one for the mistress of the house.

Unlikely, given the status of non-Ushiromiya women to Kinzo. Unless Beatrice was given one.

You know... no one could have misheard the knock, but none of the red text says they couldn't all mishear the clock.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Ssol

I agree, I don't think Krauss heard the knock anymore. But then, if the scene is true, why would he meet with Genji and head to the dining room with him?

There's no way that scene can be true, this is the problem. There are way too many scenes that can't be true in this ep5. It's all messed up, from the beginning to the end. Can't be just a coincidence, I've never seen such a messed up story from Ryukishi before.
My instinct keeps on telling me that this whole Ep5 is a giant lie. But of course another part of me tells me that maybe it's just an incredibly difficult thing to understand. Is there a way to make a sense out of it? If there is it must be incredibly hard. This is Lambda's game, it isn't even comparable to what Beatrice did. Beatrice only showed us specific riddles, but in the case of Lambda's story, the whole thing is a mystery, the whole thing doesn't make sense, starting from Erika's appearance.

But I digress. What is wrong in this particular scene? We have found at least two things:
Genji went straight away to the servant room, so it really doesn't make sense for him to be with Krauss when he returned to the family conference. And it doesn't make sense that Shannon and Kanon stayed there even after the conference restarted.

If we cannot trust these simple things, then what can we trust?
Did Battler actually receive Kinzo's ring? Did that letter actually exist? Did the knock happened? And if yes when?

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

You know, that's an excellent point. The red does require that at midnight, Kanon and Shannon were in the dining room, and none of the people who were in the dining room (at midnight) left until 1am,

Are you really sure about that? We only know that at midnight Natsuhi, Krauss and Genji where on the hallway of the second floor. And Erika, Nanjo, Kumasawa, George, Jessica, Maria and Gohda were on the guesthouse.
All the other humans were in dining room. No other human existed.

But why only the people in dining room weren't named? Why the people outside were named one by one, and not the one inside?
Who actually was inside that dining room?

We cannot trust Lambdadelta and we can't trust Battler's perspective either.
For example was Shannon there? Or is that she wasn't actually there? If she was already dead, no read truth would be broken, because dead people do not count as people.

[Bureiku]

Not a single person left the dining room until 1:00. is it possible to take this as not a single person but its possible some people left in pairs

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Well, let's assume for the moment that the knock didn't happen. In that case we should probably be doubtful about the letter too, since there really isn't anything supporting its existence other than the knock, and nobody in the mansion at midnight touched it. In that case, where did Battler get the ring from?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There's no way that scene can be true, this is the problem. There are way too many scenes that can't be true in this ep5. It's all messed up, from the beginning to the end. Can't be just a coincidence, I've never seen such a messed up story from Ryukishi before.

I can argue that there is no proof that the scene is false but I can't come up with any theory that's better than small bombs.

1) Everyone correctly discerned the sound of a direct knock on that door and could not have misheard it. That means it's impossible for them to have heard any sound other than a direct knock on the door and misidentified it as a knock.
2) A knock is when a person strikes a door with their hand.
3) None of the people inside the mansion can be the source of the sound.
4) For anyone outside the mansion, once the family conference began, it was impossible for them to take any action inside the mansion.

Lol, what the hell is this... This is much worse than Eva's red web from episode 3.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Renall

You know... no one could have misheard the knock, but none of the red text says they couldn't all mishear the clock.

Or someone messed with the clock so that it did not display the correct time. The chime we thought we heard at midnight wasn't really at midnight.

[Renall]

Well, that was more what I meant. No one's going to "accidentally" think they hear a grandfather clock chiming, but it would be trivial to adjust the time by a few minutes so that it "strikes midnight" at a time that isn't midnight.

To the perspective of the people in the house, they'd think it was midnight. But the red text doesn't care about what time everyone thought it was. The times are true, although the events may not be, but the people in the mansion don't necessarily realize this.

Some suspicious red:

Before the family meeting, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa exited the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.

When was "before the family meeting?" Interesting that we're not given a time.

May I offer to say, out of the remaining people, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the hallway of the second floor, and everyone else was in the dining room.

Odd that it would say "the remaining people." Why not say who was in the dining room?

Out of everyone in the dining room- no, I'll put it in simpler terms. Not a single person in the mansion at the moment of 24 o'clock! No one placed that letter in the hallway.

May I offer to say, that at the moment of 24 o'clock, other than Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the hallway of the second floor and everyone in the dining room, not a single human existed within the mansion.

"At the moment of 24 o'clock." Again, can we really be sure the time everybody thought was midnight was midnight? As long as the human who knocked wasn't in the mansion by midnight, this is fine.

In short, it means that no one out of all people in the mansion could have been the source of the sound of knocking. ...And by "all people", it includes people who no one apprehended or were not observed, if there even was one.

I assume this means "at midnight." There had to be some human who was there at some point.

"At the moment of 24 o'clock, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside of the mansion"!

If it was one of these people who knocked, they were out of the mansion by the time it was really midnight. Also note the suspicious "outside the mansion." Meaning any of these people could be somewhere other than the guesthouse before midnight when Erika starts establishing their alibis. "At midnight" they could be coming back to the guesthouse after leaving it to go knock.

The knocking was from a person knocking on the door by hand, okay?

Again, some human had to have been in the mansion at some point to do it. There wasn't any trickery. A human being knocked on the door. They just didn't do it at midnight.

If the clock is located in the foyer, it's very easy for someone coming into the mansion to manipulate it. Heck, they could even reset the time on their way out (although they probably wouldn't, as the clock would strike midnight again if they did). I doubt anyone was in any state to think of what time it was, though.

During the short break at 1 o'clock in the morning, the first to leave the dining room were Rosa and Eva. All of the humans in the dining room stayed there until Eva returned.

Again, "all of the humans in the dining room." Why not just say who was there? Especially since it's after the cutoff point?

Was someone in the dining room not who they claimed to be? Was someone not present who is shown to be in the scene? But if they are, they can't be inside the mansion (as the red says where Genji, Krauss, and Natsuhi were, but says "everyone else" was in the dining room), and they can't be outside the mansion (as the red says specifically who was outside). So if there was an irregularity in the dining room, why?

I think it's reasonable to conclude the knock came from someone who was not in the mansion from midnight on. As long as the knock didn't happen on or after midnight, the knocker had time to leave.

[Jan-Poo]

Indeed this is the worst riddle that was ever made. I can only solve this riddle if I assume the scenes we see are false at least to some extent:


-at the stroke of midnight, besides Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the 2nd floor hallway and everyone in the dining room, absolutely no other humans existed inside the mansion.
-In short, none of the people inside the mansion can be the source of the sound. ……And when I say “none of the people,” even if there are unknown people in the mansion who no one has observed, they are also included.


Now there are two ways to explain this:

1) There was no knock at midnight. These red truths must necessarily be limited to the midnight situation, because, definitely, the servants knocked on the door just a short while before.
2) It was a trained animal. Again we are back at the issue of ep3 where such a thing was denied. Can it be applied to every game? Even if that was the case, Lambda already broke one universal rule by adding Erika and pushing the people limit to 18.