Fate/stay night Heaven's Feel Movie Discussion Thread

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

It's extremely cheap. It's basically just an attempt to get her out of the way without compromising Rin's happy ending, and I really despise that.



Yeah, given that they're making HF, 2 seems pointless, unless those cameos involve actually developing her relationship with Rin more and giving her at least some route to salvation.

What you're saying about 3 is possible, but rescuing Shinji does say something about Rin as a character that rescuing Sakura would not (because Rin has attachment to Sakura, whereas she hates Shinji with good reason).



I don't think that's actually true. The only method we see in canon for killing Zouken is Dark Sakura, but I doubt it's the only possible way it can be done. I don't think Rin can rescue her during the Grail War, but someone else (notably Gil, who does canonically go down to the Matou basement and squish some worms during UBW) could free her, and then other development could happen from there.

But, even if she's not freed, getting Rin to acknowledge her and interact with her more and hinting at some method for helping her in the future would be better than what happens in canon. I just don't like the idea of them basically writing it to get rid of Sakura in a way that is solely designed to make Rin feel less guilty or upset rather than to actually help her.

This is largely pointless the main point of the issues in HF is you can't simply remove Zouken without killing Sakura.

Making up some silly bullshit reason why it can somehow be removed in UBW and solves all her issues, but not in HF completely undermines major plot points of HF and makes the majority of the roué worthless. It means Shirou shouldn't have made any o the choices he did in HF because UBW is a better ending for everyone involved since he didn't need to let thousands of people die in order to save her nor risk the entire world.

Sure if you want to degrade the message and purpose of HF through saving Sakura in UBW go right ahead not like I cared much for the route outside of Kotomine.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

This is largely pointless the main point of the issues in HF is you can't simply remove Zouken without killing Sakura.

Making up some silly bullshit reason why it can somehow be removed in UBW and solves all her issues, but not in HF completely undermines major plot points of HF and makes the majority of the roué worthless.

Sure if you want to degrade the message and purpose of HF through saving Sakura in UBW go right ahead not like I cared much for the route outside of Kotomine.

I think I stay with the motion now, that Sakura either disappears as in the VN, or that Zouken's worms get "sealed" but not removed, leaving an uncertain future for Sakura, because he could be unsealed at some point.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I think I stay with the motion now, that Sakura either disappears as in the VN, or that Zouken's wormed gets "sealed" but not removed, leaving an uncertain future for Sakura, because he could be unsealed at some point.

They will more likely stick to the VN since they have a movie planned for HF anyways.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by LoveYouSaber

At the same time, I was under the impression that in F/Z he was eagerly looking forward to Saber breaking down under the strain of trying to be an ideal king and then going to taste her tears... so while I understand he appreciates certain strong-willed people like Alexander and Waver, it's not a consistent trait...

Yeah, the reason he was infatuated with her was because she was strong-willed also because she wouldn't fall to him easily. Lols, but he did start getting pissed off on epy 24.

@Everyone who wants Sakura to be involved in the anime minus GreyZone.

Bring up some points. How will she be involved? Lorhand has done that just fine but you others haven't. You can't keep saying they will involve Sakura without giving points. And when some points are brought up, you say they don't work. Why not yo bring up points your self?


@Person who said Gil would kill her.

Knowing the person Gil is, he would most likely spare Sakura and make her his pawn or servant. He save her then say something like 'I like you girl, you're very strong willed. You shall become my....'. Though Gil doing that totally destroys the point of having him in UBW.

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

This is largely pointless the main point of the issues in HF is you can't simply remove Zouken without killing Sakura.

Making up some silly bullshit reason why it can somehow be removed in UBW and solves all her issues, but not in HF completely undermines major plot points of HF and makes the majority of the roué worthless. It means Shirou shouldn't have made any o the choices he did in HF because UBW is a better ending for everyone involved since he didn't need to let thousands of people die in order to save her nor risk the entire world.

Exactly


P.S

Tiger Dojo would be a good idea, especially when Ilya's gonna die...

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I don't think Rin hates Shinji... She actually always looked down on him and probably still did even then. She most likely just got a bit influenced by Shirou's ideals, but it was so subtle, that I only noticed it while we were having this discussion right now. So her finally warming up to Sakura would not really affect the story that much. However then it would also weaken the resolution in the HF movie(s).

In general, I think Rin is somewhat disdainful of Shinji, but probably not outright hateful, no. However, aside from the fact that he abuses Sakura (which Rin knows to an extent even outside of HF), in UBW he also tried to rape and murder her. That is enough reason in itself to hate him.

Conversely, whilst Rin is not great at showing her affection to Sakura and tries to cover it up, she does genuinely love and feel concern for Sakura even at the beginning of the story (part of her reasoning for saving Shirou is that his death will hurt Sakura). Saving Sakura from certain death only tells us that she's not an absolute monster, whereas saving Shinji shows she's extremely kind and forgiving.

I think the only ones who can kill Zouken without Sakura dying are:

1. Zouken himself (suicide, for whatever reason)
2. Dark Sakura
3. Gilgamesh with some concept severing noble phatasm.
4. Caster with some kind of spell
5. Illya controlled by first generation Einzbern

Maybe also Archer...

Also they have to get to know about the worm in her heart first.

I think anyone can do it with sufficient magic. For example, Rin shows at the beginning of the story that she's capable of regenerating a heart, so why couldn't she do that for Sakura?

Aside from that, maybe Zouken's worms can be sealed or something... it would leave Sakura's future vague, as it is unknown wether he will be unsealed again or not. It would therefore not make HF obsolete.

I'm not sure why they need to leave her future "vague". Rin doesn't die in HF, that doesn't make her UBW ending "obsolete".

Originally Posted by GDB

While Archer would be just as capable as Gilgamesh, merely in terms of "ability", I'd agree with not putting him on the list (along with removing Caster and Illya) due to not knowing about the worm. Even if Caster knew, I don't see why she'd remove it anyway.

Well, post-UBW I'd expect Shirou to be able to do it also. He sees the contents of GoB and of Archer's UBW, after all.

As for Caster, I think she'd do it if it suited her goals, and if she wanted to use Sakura for some other purpose then I think that killing Zouken would help that purpose. There's no reason for it to go that way in UBW, though, so it's unlikely she would.

At least Gilgamesh, being a great King (even if I, and many others, think he's a total dick), could see one of her "training" sessions and bestow some benevolence upon her by freeing her. He wouldn't care if she were crying or begging for help, but the mere fact that she just accepts it might stir something in him.

It would be more likely that he'd see Zouken and decide that he's an asshole who needs to be erased from existence, but that he would rather not kill Sakura for the hell of it. Or, just kill Zouken in a way that doesn't even interact with Sakura.

Originally Posted by Amarantine

If I remember correctly, Rin only becomes aware of Sakura's "situation" in HF, so I don't see how she might be considered guilty in UBW.

Yeah, and there's no reason Sakura should feel guilty for the events of HF either, that doesn't mean she won't. If something happens to Sakura, Rin will blame herself. And, whilst she's not really at fault, as such, there certainly are things she could have done to look into Sakura's situation more, and signs that would indicate that she is definitely not alright.

Anyway, my point was more from a story-writer viewpoint. If Sakura's situation is left unresolved, then there is a good chance that Rin will get drawn into it at some point in the future. There are enough signs that she should be able to work out that Sakura has issues (especially when she gets older and wiser), and I can't see her hiding her relationship to Sakura from Shirou forever (not if they're going to have an enduring relationship). And, even if she does forget about Sakura and never investigates her, when something bad inevitably happens to Sakura, Rin will blame herself for failing to look after Sakura better (and with good reason, because she could have investigated more, and the older she gets the less valid her reasons not to have done so become).

So, just leaving her situation unresolved is not only bad for Sakura, it's also bad for Rin in the long term. Conversely, whilst killing her off in-story would hurt Rin, she would feel less responsible for it than if Sakura died far in the future when Rin could have reasonably done more to help her, and there is also no danger of Rin getting herself killed in a rescue attempt.

So, killing Sakura off in-story would make the ending less likely to go wrong for Rin, but only by sacrificing Sakura entirely. Which is something I find extremely distasteful.

Sure, she obviously still cares for her in some way and laments the fact that they were separated as children, but is it really fair to expect her to just waltz in the Matou household and somehow force them to undo an agreement from a decade ago between two magus clans and force them to hand over the child the Matou lineage is counting upon to survive? Not only that, the time Rin and Sakura have spent apart has clearly estranged them and made things rather awkward between them, so that's all the more reason why it might be a little unreasonable to expect her to act in UBW, where she never learns what's really going on with Sakura in the Matou household.

Actually, yes, I think it's totally reasonable for her to say "fuck this stupid agreement" and look into Sakura's situation more closely. Even Rin herself says (when she first visits the Matou house in HF) that it was idiotic of her to stick to that agreement because it has already been broken the moment Sakura was handed over.

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

don't forget that in the beginning he walked right up to her and said "Go Die now". He doesn't care enough about her to save her.

He also chose not to actively kill her, though.

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

This is largely pointless the main point of the issues in HF is you can't simply remove Zouken without killing Sakura.

Except that that's not entirely true, as Dark Sakura shows in the end. It's difficult to remove Zouken, and in HF they lack the ability to do so, that doesn't mean it could not be done in other routes or situations.

It means Shirou shouldn't have made any o the choices he did in HF because UBW is a better ending for everyone involved since he didn't need to let thousands of people die in order to save her nor risk the entire world.

That logic doesn't work because "follow the UBW path" was not an option available to Shirou when he got to that point in HF. It's not like he actively made a choice to go down the Sakura route so he could save her....

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I think I stay with the motion now, that Sakura either disappears as in the VN, or that Zouken's worms get "sealed" but not removed, leaving an uncertain future for Sakura, because he could be unsealed at some point.

I don't think they should leave her future "uncertain" if they're going to do this. A large part of the point is to make it less of a "what, what about Sakura?" ending, and including an obvious future plot hook that you don't intend to resolve is really not a good way of making a satisfying ending.

Originally Posted by mirakura

@Everyone who wants Sakura to be involved in the anime minus GreyZone.

Bring up some points. How will she be involved? Lorhand has done that just fine but you others haven't. You can't keep saying they will involve Sakura without giving points. And when some points are brought up, you say they don't work. Why not yo bring up points your self?

Well, I don't know how to involve her, honestly. There isn't any obvious solution. I just think that it makes the ending a lot more satisfying if they give the Sakura/Rin stuff some closure, and that killing her off is a really horrible way of doing that.

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Actually, yes, I think it's totally reasonable for her to say "fuck this stupid agreement" and look into Sakura's situation more closely. Even Rin herself says (when she first visits the Matou house in HF) that it was idiotic of her to stick to that agreement because it has already been broken the moment Sakura was handed over.

Rather than unreasonable, unrealistic is more what I meant. After all, like you said, Rin is still a kid, and at the start of the story she's still trying to fully uphold the whole "being the heir to a great magus family" thing, which implies being a cold and pragmatic person like her father conditioned and raised her up to become.

Of course, her character arc largely consists of her coming to terms with the fact that she's unable to do so and instead accepting her inherently kind nature (to the point of risking her life to save an irredimable asshole like Shinji), so I'd say that after UBW the chances of her looking into Sakura's situation and doing something about it in the future will have certainly increased.

[mirakura]

@CherryLover

It's still possible they will make an OVA to solve the Sakura matter, else just leave it to HF movies.

[Brother Coa]

The anime follows UBW route, how is Sakura handled in UBW route - she will be the same way in anime. They don't really need to add any extra material about her fate in anime, than what we have been shown in VN, when they are going to make a movie(s) about her route anyway.

And why is all of a sudden she the most important Fate character? 90% of all the stuff I can read here lately is about her and it is becoming more and more tiresome. I know that she has fans and that is ok but this is getting pretty tiresome.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

The anime follows UBW route, how is Sakura handled in UBW route - she will be the same way in anime. They don't really need to add any extra material about her fate in anime, than what we have been shown in VN, when they are going to make a movie(s) about her route anyway.

And why is all of a sudden she the most important Fate character? 90% of all the stuff I can read here lately is about her and it is becoming more and more tiresome. I know that she has fans and that is ok but this is getting pretty tiresome.

Lols, yh I feel thesame but outright saying it will cause another waifu war or another route war.

That said, lets try not to stray away from topic again. Else, torture from the MODs.

[scyllus]

Not a waifu war really just discussing Sakura's role in UBW is the same as Saber fans wanting additional time for their favourite. Not really a waifu war

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

So, just leaving her situation unresolved is not only bad for Sakura, it's also bad for Rin in the long term. Conversely, whilst killing her off in-story would hurt Rin, she would feel less responsible for it than if Sakura died far in the future when Rin could have reasonably done more to help her, and there is also no danger of Rin getting herself killed in a rescue attempt.

So, killing Sakura off in-story would make the ending less likely to go wrong for Rin, but only by sacrificing Sakura entirely. Which is something I find extremely distasteful.

I love Sakura as a character but I could envision her death instead of Illyas as a component for a grial, if only to see how it would affect Rin. Won't happen because of Nasu, but if Saber could die in HF to develop Shriou and Rider, Sakura's death, instead of deus-machina saving method could help develop the heroine, Rin. It would even work better than Illya to bolster Shirou's resolve in his ideal and make his battle against Gil more personal. It would be sad and all, but it's still better than happy-go-lucky UBW true-as Sakura's death should develop Rin and Shirou. But really I'm sure Nasu would object, Fans would rage, and hell would froze over before it could happen. It would also connect some dots from zero without spoiling much from HF.
But should it destroy berserker death march of awesome i am against it :P Bah, it wouldn't have to exclude each other because the fantastic thing about Gil is that you can justify everything he does by him being Gil xD

P.S Just imagine ufo going full LoTR with shirou projecting byakuya and kanshou at the gate to the temple, looking over his shoulder at rin nod, whispering: for Sakura-with grail-kun in the background it really sounds like a rip-off xD

[Brother Coa]

But why would Sakura and Saber get additional time in Rin's route? Saber is already bada** in that route, only she is not resolved 100% but she has been resolved in 2006 anime so that's ok. Sakura will be too resolved 100% in HF movie, so that leaves anime to be pure Rin. If someone finds that distasteful - then just don't watch it. Watch your favorite route animation instead and be happy.

Judging what decision UFOtable made they will probably go with VN storyline to the letter and that's pretty much it, adding original content only to fil gap between UBW and FZ and that's pretty much it.

[scyllus]

Brother Coa- and honestly what's what I think they will do. But these are just speculations steming from a)original content inclusion b) fate/zero fact of existence c) not everyone is a vn purist. Also filling any hole from zero to ubw have to include Tohsaka sisters and give Saber's decision at the end some context doesn't it?

EDIT: Mirakura you're right xD Let's disscus cutting Rin's involvment in other routes instead xD

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by scyllus

Fans would rage, and hell would froze over before it could happen.

Why will they rage? They're getting UFO do their route right? They should be perfectly content, plus it's Rin's Route so they should expect something like that to give her more characterisation....

P.S

The waifu war will be about which heroine deserves extra time...

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Akogareru

There were a few optimistic posts prior about Saber getting additional char development, but you just had to ruin it! Can we all just come to a consensus about this?

I would say that was possible but...then I wouldn't even be speaking for my self

[hinode]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but while Fate/Zero showed the wormpit I don't think it revealed that Zouken implanted his core worm within Sakura. This means there should be room for ufotable to resolve the visible hanging plot threads from Zero in UBW while still leaving the core HF plotline untouched. Something like:

A) Gilgamesh seemingly kills/drives away Zouken while he's nominally under Shinji because he thinks Zouken is a mongrel

B) Gil also clears out the basement of worms because they disgust him

C) Show Shinji treating Sakura better at the end since he's no longer jealous of her

D) Maybe some sort of recognition of Sakura from Rin before she leaves for London

This way Sakura's visible issues from the perspective of Zero-only watchers look resolved, but the complications below the surface are left for until the HF movie(s) where they belong, rather than shoehorning them into UBW badly or trivializing them by somehow completely saving Sakura in a trivial manner.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by scyllus

a)original content inclusion b) fate/zero fact of existence c) not everyone is a vn purist. Also filling any hole from zero to ubw have to include tohsaka sisters and give Saber's decision at the end some context doesn't it?

If they really wanted to take that route they would do something else. Obliviously they saw that doing it differently from VN won't solve anything so they decided to do UBW for anime and HF for movie and call it a day. I also had some theories but the day they announced these two I know that all fell in water because they will probably go pure VN route(s).

And just because they have FZ does not mean they had to follow it, Nasu said it himself. FZ is one anime and this will be the other. I can already tell you that FZ purists will after everything is aired always considered HF movie(s) as true FZ sequel. ( not that they will be 100% right about that but as long as they are happy who cares )

And Saber don't really need any development because she already has 2006 anime, that's the logic behind their decision. She get her closure there ( even if we didn't get True Ending scene ) while Rin will get her in UBW and Sakura in HF - everyone is happy.

I can only hope now that they will also do remake of 2006 anime after they finish UBW and HF to please the biggest fanbase. But even if they don't it's ok, I already got anime, manga and movie home on DVD so I am happy as I can be .
They remaking 'Fate' route one day will just be bonus for me.

[scyllus]

Originally Posted by hinode

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but while Fate/Zero showed the wormpit I don't think it revealed that Zouken implanted his core worm within Sakura. This means there should be room for ufotable to resolve the visible hanging plot threads from Zero in UBW while still leaving the core HF plotline untouched. Something like:

A) Gilgamesh seemingly kills/drives away Zouken while he's nominally under Shinji because he thinks Zouken is a mongrel

B) Gil also clears out the basement of worms because they disgust him

C) Show Shinji treating Sakura better at the end since he's no longer jealous of her

D) Maybe some sort of recognition of Sakura from Rin before she leaves for London

This way Sakura's visible issues from the perspective of Zero-only watchers look resolved, but the complications below the surface are left for until the HF movie(s) where they belong, rather than shoehorning them into UBW badly or trivializing them by somehow completely saving Sakura in a trivial manner.

A) You can justify Gil by being Gil,and a variation of any character killing Zouken works.
B)Justifiable but requires HF knowledge ( Zouken body made of worms etc.)
C)Zouken lives still, everything minus rape is the same
D)Pandering and just enraging to Sakura fans.Resolves nothing, comes out of nowhere and still hurtful.
But overall these weren't any worse that what was already proposed (also by me)the disscusion continues as Cherry Lover is adamant in his position that "seemingly" saving Sakura is the same as doing nothing at all to help reedem her shafting in UBW true (and if you read his posts closely he's got quite a good reasoning for it). And there's the fact what Nasu said, not a sequel to zero.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by scyllus

But Cherry Lover is adamant in his position that "seemingly" saving Sakura is the same as doing nothing at all to help reedem her shafting in UBW true (and if you read his posts closely he's got quite a good reasoning for it).

So?

If he doesn't like how they deal Sakura per UBW route - he doesn't need to watch it or to love it.

He will have HF movie(s) to watch and love.

[scyllus]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

So?

If he doesn't like how they deal Sakura per UBW route - he doesn't need to watch it or to love it.

He will have HF movie(s) to watch and love.

Awww, c'mon there is no need to go personal here.
His points were mostly about Rin's development through Sakura's existence. And that what's very missing in RIN'S route. Of course Razor has a good point that UBW is really an Archer route, but if you want to market it as Rin's route, more development for her is a given. And Sakura is a perfect way to go about it. I would say that replacing Illya by Sakura might be a good way to go for it, but anything could work really.
I do support your point that the Sakura topic should end soon, it will end up in flames.

[Brother Coa]

I am not getting personal - only realistic.

You cannot expect them to give Sakura the same treatment that main heroine in the route will receive. Not to mention that Zouken didn't get involved at all, so after the way Sakura stays with him and that's it. That's what happens in UBW and Fate and I don't see why would they change that when they already decided to do unrelated HF movie(s) to resolve her story as well. Using that they can go fully for UBW true ending, just like they can let Ilya get brutally killed because she has her own anime.

And I agree, speculations need to stop to allow rumors to return. I am coming here to read rumors, not how some would like for x character to end.