Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Nayrael]

Originally Posted by Mcfart

I always assumed Archer was a Shirou (likely similar to UBW Shirou who tries to save everyone)who got a 'bad end' (didn't get a girl), even though Rin saved his life from Lancer's attack. Cuz he implies that Rin will prevent Shirou from becoming a heroic spirit.

He definitely got a girl as during one of Archer's flashbacks in UBW it is mentioned that he had a lover.

Originally Posted by Mcfart

I haven't read the Fate route in a while, but wasen't Shirou protecting Saber because he had a boner for her, not because he wanted to be a superhero (although that may be part of the reason)?

It is the sum both: his wish to be a superhero, his love for Saber and teh trauma of seeing Saber wounded by Berserker led to him doing what he did in Fate.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

That's a very human trait though. Humans are naturally selfish beings. Shirou has been lacking in the humanity department in his desire to be a hero of justice. So doing this makes him once again seem more human again. Sakura is innocent as well. She has been used and toyed with since she was a child. She has no control over AM. Why shouldn't she be given a chance to be saved? I bet you too would cower away if the option to kill your loved one to save the world, even if said loved one was innocent, was given to you. I would make the same choice as Shirou.

Is it fine that I'm neutral with choice Shirou made in Heaven's Feel?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ShadowSamurai365

Is it fine that I'm neutral with choice Shirou made in Heaven's Feel?

Yes. Actually I don't think anyone here said "his choice was the absolute perfect one" or something like that.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Not at all.... choosing to save one individual over all others is not questionable at all...
Let's not pretend we don't know that here shall we? That's pretty much the entire thing of HF - not giving a damn about saving people because the only thing that matters is your loved one.

That's not remotely true. Shirou still absolutely cares about saving the other people. Most of the route consists of him trying to do so. He just refuses to murder Sakura in cold blood because she might be unintentionally and unknowingly killing them.

Originally Posted by GDB

...You realize that by saving Sakura, he saves just as many people as he'd have saved if he killed her at the same time? It's only the people that'd die between when he's first given the choice and when he finally saves her that are on the scale.

And if I recall (been a while since I played the route), the deaths during that time are from the very end of night 9 to day 16, so one week, which I don't recall really being that many people. Most of those she ate were early on before she really started gobbling up Servants, weren't they?

Actually, it's arguable that he ultimately saved more people by letting Sakura live. Because, by killing her, he put himself in opposition to everyone else in the war, all of whom would likely use the Grail and, thus, destroy the entire city and possibly more if they won. Whereas, in HF, he had Rider and Rin on his side, which made it much easier for him to stop the Grail being used.

That's the problem with the whole "kill one to save many" mentality. Because there are so many people in the world, just about anything you do is meaningless compared to ultimately winning. Which means that absolutely any act, however evil, is permissible. The people of Fuyuki are no better off with MoS Shirou around than anyone else. In fact, you probably want to be as far away from the guy as possible, because he's just as likely to kill you as to save you.

Originally Posted by Mcfart

Oo, so in other words, Archer is the HF Shirou?

Nope, MoS Shirou would be closer to Archer. Although, it's pretty clear that Archer never made an explicit decision to kill one to save many in the way that MoS Shirou did, even if he did follow that path at times.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Mcfart

Oo, so in other words, Archer is the HF Shirou?

I wasn't saying that. I was just drawing comparisons between the 2.

also saving Sakura also saved a lot of lives that would've been lost in the grail dismantling war that takes places 10 years after Fate and UBW. Shiro destroyed the greater grail in HF which was the source of the fight meaning the grail war is finished by the end of HF and not any time in the future. There would be no war over whether to dismantle it or not in that route.

[scyllus]

As I finally finished my 2nd reread of FS/N I'll post some of my thoughts here.

On Fate:
Not that bad. I disagree with the direction the route took ( can't reaveal anything? Let's have a moe fest!) , but the action and charadevelopment is very fluid. My biggest issue would have to be the romance. But i guess that's just taste dependant? I like the clear flow of sol>action>sol etc but not the content's themselves. It works as an introduction quite well, and despite the lenght is quick and easy to read.
On Saber: Does her job a Servant excellently, fails as as LI hard. She feels like a fan bait most of the time, as HF despite her death develops nicely. I understand the point of her inclusion, but overall despite being marketed as a main heroine, she is plot relevant mostly in her own route. Rin,Kirei and Shirou are the main characters IMO and Saber feels like a lost potential all-around.
On UBW:
I liked it far more than Fate, but one thing really bothers me. It feels as Nasu put down some big plot points and connected them through without care. UBW shines brightly at it peaks (Emiya vs Archer, Hercules vs Gil, Lancer vs Archer etc) than flops down hardly ( Kuzuki, Caster's prolonged torture without a care etc), Shirou is a better protag (not bottleneced ked by ankward romance writing), Rin works as a LI just fine and their relationship feels quite natural, fights are delicious and juicy. Nice work even if i disagree with Shirou's decisions.On Rin: I really like her. Both as a LI and support. Her tsundere tendencies are toned down as not to feel parodic, and are actually entertaining. A shame she get's most of her characterization in HF, but a very good character.
On HF:
My favourite one. I like the "human" aspect of the route. It feels the least anime like, with some hard to swallow morality messages, the most competent master-shirou and quick dissmisal of Saber and Archer to give actual humans some spotlight. Of course the it's still the same fs/n with magic and explosions, yet characters, and not really the action takes the spotlight. Romance works, i like sexual frankness of the characters and their natural convos,god they can speak "love" over dinner, as a part of their everyday.
On Sakura: a really complex character, with very human qualities. A really refreshing change after seeing the current trend of one-faceted moe blobs and badly executed tsundere variations.

Overall: Nasu suffers from the same problems as R07 does. He's in a need of good editor to make his works something more than just animu fun. The vn is very good and fun but the potential lies undiscovered. That's my opinion.

Also it's just an opinion please do not start a waifu war about Saber.

[Mcfart]

Originally Posted by scyllus

As I finally finished my 2nd reread of FS/N I'll post some of my thoughts here.

On Fate:
Not that bad. I disagree with the direction the route took ( can't reaveal anything? Let's have a moe fest!) , but the action and charadevelopment is very fluid. My biggest issue would have to be the romance. But i guess that's just taste dependant? I like the clear flow of sol>action>sol etc but not the content's themselves. It works as an introduction quite well, and despite the lenght is quick and easy to read.
On Saber: Does her job a Servant excellently, fails as as LI hard. She feels like a fan bait most of the time, as HF despite her death develops nicely. I understand the point of her inclusion, but overall despite being marketed as a main heroine, she is plot relevant mostly in her own route. Rin,Kirei and Shirou are the main characters IMO and Saber feels like a lost potential all-around.
On UBW:
I liked it far more than Fate, but one thing really bothers me. It feels as Nasu put down some big plot points and connected them through without care. UBW shines brightly at it peaks (Emiya vs Archer, Hercules vs Gil, Lancer vs Archer etc) than flops down hardly ( Kuzuki, Caster's prolonged torture without a care etc), Shirou is a better protag (not bottleneced ked by ankward romance writing), Rin works as a LI just fine and their relationship feels quite natural, fights are delicious and juicy. Nice work even if i disagree with Shirou's decisions.On Rin: I really like her. Both as a LI and support. Her tsundere tendencies are toned down as not to feel parodic, and are actually entertaining. A shame she get's most of her characterization in HF, but a very good character.
On HF:
My favourite one. I like the "human" aspect of the route. It feels the least anime like, with some hard to swallow morality messages, the most competent master-shirou and quick dissmisal of Saber and Archer to give actual humans some spotlight. Of course the it's still the same fs/n with magic and explosions, yet characters, and not really the action takes the spotlight. Romance works, i like sexual frankness of the characters and their natural convos,god they can speak "love" over dinner, as a part of their everyday.
On Sakura: a really complex character, with very human qualities. A really refreshing change after seeing the current trend of one-faceted moe blobs and badly executed tsundere variations.

Overall: Nasu suffers from the same problems as R07 does. He's in a need of good editor to make his works something more than just animu fun. The vn is very good and fun but the potential lies undiscovered. That's my opinion.

Also it's just an opinion please do not start a waifu war about Saber.

No need for a waifu war over Saber :P. Knowing what hero she is, her approach to romance is very strange. Would expect her to be the man in the relationship tbh lol.

As for the routes, UBW was my favorite simply cuz Archer/Rin were my favorite characters, but I'd put HF barely below that, because yes, HF is the only route where Shirou's ideals weren't making him out to be a stereotypical anime protaginist (as imo in HF his ideals were not a focal point of the plot).

Also since the original FSN had hentai, I don't think Nasu was trying to be anything above anime. It's cartoon and has hentai, lol. Can you list any vns that had writing that made them "above" falling into anime tropes?

Said dis before, but I hated the fate route (the 2004 version)

[scyllus]

Originally Posted by Mcfart

No need for a waifu war over Saber :P. Knowing what hero she is, her approach to romance is very strange. Would expect her to be the man in the relationship tbh lol.

As for the routes, UBW was my favorite simply cuz Archer/Rin were my favorite characters, but I'd put HF barely below that, because yes, HF is the only route where Shirou's ideals weren't making him out to be a stereotypical anime protaginist (as imo in HF his ideals were not a focal point of the plot).

Also since the original FSN had hentai, I don't think Nasu was trying to be anything above anime. It's cartoon and has hentai, lol. Can you list any vns that had writing that made them "above" falling into anime tropes?

Said dis before, but I hated the fate route (the 2004 version)

Quite gladly as i fonder of vn's than anime of late. But it's not about avoiding anime tropes left and right to make them westernized or NGE "deep". Its about using the tropes and putting an interesting observation. Be it about people, relationships, politics or war. Well I would say the socio-politicial criticism in Sharin No Kuni fascinated me, simple but very effective portrayal of war in Muv Luv Alter, the nature of love in Saya no Uta or very realistic portraits of adults from Umineko also baring the maddnes and recovery layer by layer in case of Cross Channel MC. But that's not really the point, action and shonen are very good on thier own, but an editor is really needed to put FS/N to full shine. The simplest example would be differing "basic" shirou in first four days of the plot in every route, even if he should be the same character. Such things built on top of each other, and decreased my overall experience, while still being fun. And hentai is a sales flick most of the time, Nasu at least tried to give some explanation why it's needed. Also please do not make me recall his ero writing. My laptop could suffer serious damage.

[GreyZone]

When it comes to h-scenes, then I think replacing them should work fine for Fate (where did Saber learn how to "please men" anyway?) and even more for UBW. However in HF, replacing the h-scenes by "bloodsucking" creates problems in the characterisation of both Shirou and Sakura. The h-scenes seemed to be both something relationship-defining as well as a measure against Sakura's bad condition, while the bloodsucking (granted I did not see the scenes myself yet) merely seems to be a counter-measure against Sakura's condition, but is missing the relationship-defining part.

[GDB]

UBW can work without the sex, though it makes less sense. Come on, a couple of teenagers in a life or death struggle and you don't expect survival instincts to kick in and make them horny?

Fate can work without the second sex scene, but the first is kind of integral to Saber and Shirou's relationship. Plus, it's an established method of mana transfer, while a mana dragon isn't. You'd have to rewrite their entire relationship without that first sex scene, otherwise it comes off as odd and awkward beyond belief.

HF, as you said, needs it for the story.

[Mcfart]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

When it comes to h-scenes, then I think replacing them should work fine for Fate (where did Saber learn how to "please men" anyway?) and even more for UBW. However in HF, replacing the h-scenes by "bloodsucking" creates problems in the characterisation of both Shirou and Sakura. The h-scenes seemed to be both something relationship-defining as well as a measure against Sakura's bad condition, while the bloodsucking (granted I did not see the scenes myself yet) merely seems to be a counter-measure against Sakura's condition, but is missing the relationship-defining part.

Just cuz she was imitating a dude doesn't mean she doesn't have some boy toys!

edit: also this may sounds weird, but if Saber's still alive and retains her memories, then is Shirou the first master to romance her?

[Stanfoo]

Originally Posted by GDB

Fate can work without the second sex scene, but the first is kind of integral to Saber and Shirou's relationship. Plus, it's an established method of mana transfer, while a mana dragon isn't.

Played out fine in the RN version. They basically did the same thing as shown in the anime: Rin transplants Shirou's magic circuits into Saber -> CG dragon scene. This also makes it canon since Nasu went with it. For those that haven't read RN, what this means is Shirou can now replenish Saber's mana levels at a slow pace by being very close to her (this is how they do it without sex for the 2nd scene).

Originally Posted by GDB

You'd have to rewrite their entire relationship without that first sex scene, otherwise it comes off as odd and awkward beyond belief.

Did not feel that at all. If anything was awkward, it was the sex scene. I haven't seen it for myself, but from what I've been told by other people, most agreed that it was so horribly written and forced that it was unintentionally hilarious and is a stain on the VN's legacy.

[GDB]

I don't see how her being all awkward and shy around him just from a non-sexual mana transfer is... not awkward. Do you not recall her tripping the next morning, him catching her, and then her being all bashful? What would cause that just from a mental dragon? Or them basically going from Master / Servant to lovey dovey? I just don't see how realta nua's version makes any sense in that regard.

[Stanfoo]

The magic circuit transplant process was quite complicated, anything could have happened to cause this. In the end, they are now wholly connected and there will always be a piece of Shirou in Saber. Plus, Shirou was on top of Saber during the whole ritual with Saber having her blouse undone and Shirou naked from the waist up. Add those together and it makes perfect sense.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Stanfoo

Played out fine in the RN version. They basically did the same thing as shown in the anime: Rin transplants Shirou's magic circuits into Saber -> CG dragon scene. This also makes it canon since Nasu went with it. For those that haven't read RN, what this means is Shirou can now replenish Saber's mana levels at a slow pace by being very close to her (this is how they do it without sex for the 2nd scene).



Did not feel that at all. If anything was awkward, it was the sex scene. I haven't seen it for myself, but from what I've been told by other people, most agreed that it was so horribly written and forced that it was unintentionally hilarious and is a stain on the VN's legacy.

I agree. However with Sakura the sex becomes something more than just deus sex machina. Especially the last one where Shirou comes to her for sex. Not just because he needed to but because he WANTED to. tvtropes summed it up best

Before, she felt her body was disgusting due to what she had gone through by Zouken, and had to sleep with Shirou in order to relieve the crest worm inside of her, and that even though she's been accepted and loved by him, she thought that he would never love her in "that" way. But then during one conversation with him, Shirou asks Sakura if they can sleep together again that night, leading to a tearful smile from Sakura; not only does this moment fully cement that Shirou truly loves her in every way and doesn't find anything disgusting about her, but it's the only sexual scene in the story where the underlying reason for it is not something supernatural, but one that's purely driven by love and acceptance.

The bloodsucking is something that doesn't come off well in RN making the sex scene more a necessity for Sakura's development on an emotional scale. That's something that neither Rin or Saber really needed.

Originally Posted by Stanfoo

The magic circuit transplant process was quite complicated, anything could have happened to cause this. In the end, they are now wholly connected and there will always be a piece of Shirou in Saber. Plus, Shirou was on top of Saber during the whole ritual with Saber having her blouse undone and Shirou naked from the waist up. Add those together and it makes perfect sense.

If any of you read Freezing I equate it to the stigma transfer and how Stella originally felt about it. lol.

Originally Posted by mirakura

I know I shouldn't protest but- isn't that the same in Fate route? - I can't help it, it's a reflex :3

Not really. Saber's sex scene are primarily about the mana before anything else. Sakura's start that way but are more about the meaning of the act for Sakura in the end. The meaning doesn't translate well in the last sex scene into blood sucking since much of the purpose ends up being lost Sex isn't something that is required for the Fate route.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Not really. Saber's sex scene are primarily about the mana before anything else. Sakura's start that way but are more about the meaning of the act for Sakura in the end. The meaning doesn't translate well in the last sex scene into blood sucking since much of the purpose ends up being lost Sex isn't something that is required for the Fate route.

I meant the second one :3 It's alike in that way to the last HF h-scene

Originally Posted by GreyZone

(where did Saber learn how to "please men" anyway?).

Her 'Onii-chan', aka, Sir Kay. :3

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by mirakura

I meant the second one :3 It's alike in that way to the last HF h-scene



Her 'Onii-chan', aka, Sir Kay. :3

Not really. It brings nothing to the story but a sex scene. a silent confirmation that feeling were mutual but the primary issue there was getting Saber mana so that she could fight Gilgamesh. It added nothing that wouldn't have already happened even by other means like in RN. They still would've gone to face Gilgamesh just with her having more energy. She would've seen the corruption of the grail, given up her quest, and still have disappeared.

Sakura's last one completely changed how she viewed herself and her circumstances. It drove the story forward by giving her the confidence to confront Zouken which set off the main part of HF. She finally had something she wanted and didn't want to lose which was what drove her over the edge when confronted by Shinji. Just allowing her to suck his blood just doesn't give off the same vibe as Shiro did by just accepting everything about her and still wanting to sleep with her with no ulterior motives. It's the difference between "You're letting me suck your blood? You really do love me" compared to "You'll still accept and love me despite my past and this damaged body and you still want to sleep with for no other reason than that you want to be with me?" The 2 ways give off a completely different feeling to each other and have different implications. It also required changes to Sakura's backstory to remove implications of rape to make it fit all ages. Saber didn't require that. also do you think Shinji would actually be willing to allow her to suck his blood with his characterization? Sucking blood just doesn't fit properly for what they had original written.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Not really. It brings nothing to the story but a sex scene. a silent confirmation that feeling were mutual but the primary issue there was getting Saber mana so that she could fight Gilgamesh. It added nothing that wouldn't have already happened even by other means like in RN. They still would've gone to face Gilgamesh just with her having more energy. She would've seen the corruption of the grail, given up her quest, and still have disappeared.

No, it's actually official that the second h-scene is love derived. Now,if only I can find it....

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by mirakura

No, it's actually official that the second h-scene is love derived. Now,if only I can find it....

Whether it is or not, it doesn't affect the story in any meaningful way like how Sakura's affects everything beyond that point. They had to tone down Shinji and remove any mentions of rape from her backstory, which was a LOT of the issues that Sakura had, just to make the bloodsucking work. That's how tied it was to that route. Nothing of Saber had to be changed which shows how irrelevant her sex scenes were in the grand scheme of things.

[Mcfart]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Whether it is or not, it doesn't affect the story in any meaningful way like how Sakura's affects everything beyond that point. They had to tone down Shinji and remove any mentions of rape from her backstory, which was a LOT of the issues that Sakura had, just to make the bloodsucking work. That's how tied it was to that route. Nothing of Saber had to be changed which shows how irrelevant her sex scenes were in the grand scheme of things.

Butbut 3som!



Also ya the sex actually was relevent to HF, but lol at giving people Twilight instead of sex.

"WHAT DO FANS WANT TO SEE IF WE CAN'T GIVE THEM SEX? I HEAR TWILIGHT'S POPULAR!"