The General Discussion of Haruhi Suzumiya

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Alot of the references won't make sense to all but cultures influenced by Japanese traditions or are aware of those customs. I don't find them alienating but that would not be the case across Asia-pacific (it would be alot easier for Taiwanese and Korean to comprehend than say somebody from Indonesia)

Basically like you said, Koreans, Chinese, Taiwanese and Singaporeans can relate quite easily with those references.

These are the countries with alot of exposure to Japanese culture, either in forms of tv, radio, merchandise or overseas school exchange programs.

I have exposure to all them , that's why I have such a view that culture is a big factor to understanding the story.

[arias]

Originally Posted by C.A.

Basically like you said, Koreans, Chinese, Taiwanese and Singaporeans can relate quite easily with those references.

These are the countries with alot of exposure to Japanese culture, either in forms of tv, radio, merchandise or overseas school exchange programs.

I have exposure to all them , that's why I have such a view that culture is a big factor to understanding the story.

Unfortunately some people don't get tsunderes and have to start threads about it..

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by arias

Unfortunately some people don't get tsunderes and have to start threads about it..

Its weird though, I thought tsundere people would be more common in the west, there are very few tsundere Asians. Maybe its just me though lol

And maybe because western people have seen too much of tsundere types and has gotten sick of them.

[Eclipze]

Well...Haruhi isn't a normal tsundere is she? Yet here you are, making it seem like SHnY haters are all westerners, people who don't understand the culture, or people who don't like tsundere types. Trust me, I like my tsunderes. Rin (F/sn), Shana (SnS), Louise (ZnT). And Haruhi isn't one of them.

Lastly...is it that hard to realize that some people hate the show/character simply because they hate them? I'm pretty sure there are people who are westerners, who understand the culture, like tsundere types and STILL hate Haruhi. Look at it this way: If you were to understand feelings of a murderer, does that mean that you definitely won't hate him for being who he is? It is all about personal preference. Get over it.

Nothing in this world is absolute. Killing someone doesn't mean that you are a murderer, doing good deed won't always result in rewards, money is not always power, love doesn't conquer all. So what makes SHnY any more special than all other anime/tv shows/objects?

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

Lastly...is it that hard to realize that some people hate the show/character simply because they hate them?

No of course its not hard. Perhaps you didn't know, but my earliest explanations on why people didn't like the show is that they do not have the genes to like this show. Or they were born with genes that make them hate this show.

It is all about personal preference. Get over it.

Its very weird to tell people to 'Get over it.', maybe you should also tell that to Norgel, who created the thread in the first place to tell everyone he doesn't like the show.

If his opinion warrants a thread, I don't see why our opinions don't warrant ourselves some posts.

But then, of course we found out that his thread didn't exactly meet the requirements to exist as a thread.

And also, he stated clearly that he wants to be stung back by people,quote=Norgel]Ok, well, why not just stick my you-know-what into a wasp's nest on the first day?[/quote]By posting our replies and analysing why people don't like the show, we warrant ourselves the right to post, as our posts fit the requirements of his thread. In that case we don't need to 'Get over it.'

[Noppapana]

there are some ppl who say that the serie is overrated
but i think in which way is it actually overrated ?

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by Noppapana

there are some ppl who say that the serie is overrated
but i think in which way is it actually overrated ?

The word overrate is very subjective and often misused.

For this show, because of its complexity and nature, there are lots of people who don't understand it, in a variety of ways.

When they don't understand the show, they think the show is overrated, which is a totally wrong reaction. If they don't understand it doesn't mean the show is overrated, how can you rate something that you can't even understand?

[Potatochobit]

if you think japanese women have special personalities that the women in the rest of the world dont have you are mistaken.

This story is not for most westerners

because japanese were the first people on the moon?

ESP and espers were all originally from hokkaido?

because japan invented the worlds first super computer?

the japanese must be the first people in the world to write a book about time travel?


although i do agree that most anime shows do favor japanese tastes, almost all of suzumiya haruhi's themes are based on western concepts. this show does not have heavy japanese references to culture or religion or japan specific morals. it can be watched by pretty much anyone from a first world country and easily be related to.

[arias]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

Well...Haruhi isn't a normal tsundere is she? Yet here you are, making it seem like SHnY haters are all westerners, people who don't understand the culture, or people who don't like tsundere types. Trust me, I like my tsunderes. Rin (F/sn), Shana (SnS), Louise (ZnT). And Haruhi isn't one of them.

Lastly...is it that hard to realize that some people hate the show/character simply because they hate them? I'm pretty sure there are people who are westerners, who understand the culture, like tsundere types and STILL hate Haruhi. Look at it this way: If you were to understand feelings of a murderer, does that mean that you definitely won't hate him for being who he is? It is all about personal preference. Get over it.

No one ever said that the non-understand of the tsundere was the sole reason that people didn't like Haruhi. That's not suprising I guess.. a lack of logic. I mentioned it as a likely reason, and of course, my post was made with a "" which if you do not understand in implicit internet emoticon language, means a teasing & slightly sarcastic post.

C.A. and I have different responses; while he usually mounts a defence of SuzuHaru, I mount attacks on inconsistencies and faults in the posts of others. I don't need to defend SuzuHaru, and I don't need to attack another person's opinion because preferences aren't logically susceptible. However, this doesn't mean we can't laugh at or mock other people's preferences or must readily accept them. We can tolerate them, though.

Originally Posted by C.A.

If his opinion warrants a thread, I don't see why our opinions don't warrant ourselves some posts.

[...]

But then, of course we found out that his thread didn't exactly meet the requirements to exist as a thread.

Right on. Some people are closet elitists.. forcefully advocating the acceptance of other's preferences while not realizing that this means a violation of my preference to not accept someone else's preference. Of course, I already pointed out the lack of a point that the mentioned poster had in his thread. It wasn't new, it was in the wrong forum and it was just bleh.

Originally Posted by Potatochobit

if you think japanese women have special personalities that the women in the rest of the world dont have you are mistaken.

Well you're addressing a broader issue I think. Our main thrust was only limited to the tsundere type and why people hate Haruhi.. bringing in all the sci-fi stuff and brings the argument off-track. The focus is this: some people are banging on hating on Haruhi and some of them are probably just unfamiliar with the tsundere type, of which Haruhi is a volatile/violent instantiation.



It's not as if I've always found Haruhi to be pleasant. The first few episodes and the first volume of the novel series had several scenes where I found her very distasteful and it got me very annoyed. This is very much toned down in the later volumes.. she does perform characteristically bullish actions even later on, but they never get as bad as the bullying Mikuru part. She becomes much more tolerable and there's alot more dere...

In this case I would say the author might have overstretched Haruhi's annoying side when he first wrote the novel, and possibly following some backlash/feedback from readers or his editor, continually retuned the character to be much more acceptable. Whether this happened or whether it was his own will that dimmed Haruhi's annoying brashness, I don't know. But I think it would be true that she does get better later on... of course, I wouldn't be suprised if this was explained partially by the presence of Kyon ; )

[Shirobane]

Originally Posted by arias

In this case I would say the author might have overstretched Haruhi's annoying side when he first wrote the novel, and possibly following some backlash/feedback from readers or his editor, continually retuned the character to be much more acceptable. Whether this happened or whether it was his own will that dimmed Haruhi's annoying brashness, I don't know. But I think it would be true that she does get better later on... of course, I wouldn't be suprised if this was explained partially by the presence of Kyon ; )

I really hope that's not the case. I religiously support character development, but if it were only to please a wider variety of fans, then wouldn't that development be meaningless?

I'm a huge fan of Haruhi's imperfect fictional personality. In contrast with other perfect characters (the other [Fujioka] Haruhi being a fine example) Suzumiya Haruhi is many times more believable. Yes she's a bitch, she bullies and does whatever is necessary to get her way; but I find that tons more fun than a character whose sole purpose is to be endearing and to be put on a pedestal where other characters in the same series cannot hope to reach.

I'm glad Tanigawa Nagaru-san did not pussy-foot around the tsundere archetype like most writers do; it molds a more believable character that way. A large chunk of the complaints about Suzumiya Haruhi associates her actions with reality, that in itself proves how well his method works as I'm sure that many people who visit AnimeSuki can disassociate fiction with reality. You will never find comments like that describing Louise (Zero no Tsukaima), Shana (Shakugan no Shana), etc. because they do not hold the degree of believability that Haruhi does.

[Kikaifan]

Originally Posted by arias

In this case I would say the author might have overstretched Haruhi's annoying side when he first wrote the novel, and possibly following some backlash/feedback from readers or his editor, continually retuned the character to be much more acceptable. Whether this happened or whether it was his own will that dimmed Haruhi's annoying brashness, I don't know. But I think it would be true that she does get better later on... of course, I wouldn't be suprised if this was explained partially by the presence of Kyon ; )

I doubt this only because I also know a ton of people who complained whenever Haruhi wasn't acting out and being outrageous.

[Ultima_Rasengan05]

One of the best anime i've seen so far!!!
I just started to watch this series after i read an article in some anime magazine....i forgot the name of it....but it seemed interesting enough, so i checked the show out....and its good!!
I'm only at ep.6, kinda confused, since there is two ways of watching this anime and that there are somewat....aliens??!!.....i dunno but I like the anime so far!!!!

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by C.A.

Seeing how hot the anime is in Japan and not the rest of the world, one can argue and say that its specifically for Japan.

The rest of the world who resonated with the show are people who has resonated with the various genres it contains.

You know, I can say the exact same thing about Star Wars when it was first released... (other than the fact that it's not an anime ).

about making general assumptions using guesswork...

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by C.A.

Its very weird to tell people to 'Get over it.', maybe you should also tell that to Norgel, who created the thread in the first place to tell everyone he doesn't like the show.

Considering that that was Norgel's first post on hating Haruhi, I don't see why anyone should tell him to "get over it" unless he continues making similar threads.

Originally Posted by C.A.

If his opinion warrants a thread, I don't see why our opinions don't warrant ourselves some posts.

But then, of course we found out that his thread didn't exactly meet the requirements to exist as a thread.

And also, he stated clearly that he wants to be stung back by people,Ok, well, why not just stick my you-know-what into a wasp's nest on the first day?By posting our replies and analysing why people don't like the show, we warrant ourselves the right to post, as our posts fit the requirements of his thread. In that case we don't need to 'Get over it.'

But in your case, in just about every other non-Suzumiya Haruhi thread that contains a post which either contains dislike, disinterest or hate for the series/character, you just HAVE to post and say stuff similar to what you said (defence for SHnY). "Oh you are missing out." "Looks like you have not been chosen yet", "You don't like the show because you don't understand it".

I guess you didn't really notice, but some posters are already getting irritated that you are imposing your opinion onto others to be the absolute, for SHnY anyways. Really, no matter how much you try to justify, its the exact same behaviour that people expect from NARUTARDS. "You don't like naruto? OMG, LOSER" "(Insert character name) PWNS! NARUTO IS THE BEST ANIME EVAR!". Ask yourself: Do those comments (Both yours and the above) contribute to the existing thread?

Imagine this:
One day, you and your friend walk by a priest. You start saying stuff (conversing with your friend) like, "All christians are phonies", "Pfft, Jesus is just some stupid poor man". The priest overhears what you said, stops you and your friend, and start preaching on why you are wrong, and that he is right. Oh, but the worst is not over. You hear from your friends that they have experienced the exact same enounter with the priest. How would you feel in such situations? Happy that you have been "enlightened"? Or royally pissed off at that 'idiot' whom you think should just disappear into his own land of retards?

Sure, you can have thoughts and opinions, but when you express that same opinion out publicly in an environment where it is not needed, you are just being a nuisance. Sure, I'll admit that I've done such an action before, but not on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by Shirobane

I'm a huge fan of Haruhi's imperfect fictional personality. In contrast with other perfect characters (the other [Fujioka] Haruhi being a fine example) Suzumiya Haruhi is many times more believable. Yes she's a bitch, she bullies and does whatever is necessary to get her way; but I find that tons more fun than a character whose sole purpose is to be endearing and to be put on a pedestal where other characters in the same series cannot hope to reach.

Maybe your definition of "imperfect fictional personality" is different from mine, but when exactly was the other Haruhi perfect?

Spoiler:

She can't sing even if her life depended on it, she is totally oblivious to people who are showing affection towards her (She even mistook a confession as asking to go to the same school as hers), and she is afraid of lightning.

Suzumiya Haruhi is...essentially, a god, someone who can sing, someone who is fearless, someone who, by character design, looks good. If being a god and having the other qualities only qualify S.Haruhi as an imperfect character, then F.Haruhi sure as hell isn't perfect. S.Haruhi is just as "unreachable" as F.Haruhi. I mean, how can the average joe get a god as his (girl)friend?

Originally Posted by arias

No one ever said that the non-understand of the tsundere was the sole reason that people didn't like Haruhi. That's not suprising I guess.. a lack of logic. I mentioned it as a likely reason, and of course, my post was made with a " " which if you do not understand in implicit internet emoticon language, means a teasing & slightly sarcastic post.

Sole reason? Nah. Didn't I say this?

seem like SHnY haters are all westerners, people who don't understand the culture, or people who don't like tsundere types.

Look at it this way:
You have explained that the ecomotion was indicating sarcasm, but does that mean that others can tell what you are trying to say? Lets analyze the emoticon.

It is achieve by typing : D. D, from first impression, shows a wide open mouth, with the arc position indicating a smile, hence a open-mouth smile. The : represents eyes, and in this forum's emoticon for : D, eyes are represented by ^^. That indicates a facial expression similar to Tom Cruise's when he was jumping up and down some tv show's couch because he was getting married to Katie Holmes(?). As far as I can tell, the emoticon you have used is usually representing great happiness. Now, I am not telling you that it is a wrong emoticon to use, but when you consider that the comments you made have possible replies for it (Aka capable of resulting in discussions/arguements with other posters more than the average), it would be wise to use a more suitable emoticon for representing sarcasm, no?

and , particularly the latter, would be my personal recommandations for usage of sarcasm, based on the facial expression.

Originally Posted by arias

I mount attacks on inconsistencies and faults in the posts of others.

And thats exactly what I am doing.

[panzerfan]

Originally Posted by arias

Right on. Some people are closet elitists.. forcefully advocating the acceptance of other's preferences while not realizing that this means a violation of my preference to not accept someone else's preference. Of course, I already pointed out the lack of a point that the mentioned poster had in his thread. It wasn't new, it was in the wrong forum and it was just bleh.

It reminds me of something that sticks out to me very much.sorry Shirobane for using the very same quote again but this one says it like no other...

Originally Posted by kyon, Endless EIGHT

To further this point, the naïve notion that the world which we safeguard must be righteous is simply bullshit that is made and mass produced by humans under the guidance of ideologies and doctrines. There are plenty of bigots that blindly advertise this self-centered slander and force this upon others. I say to them that they should at least think of what the generations millennia later might have to conclude about them.

Suzumiya Haruhi is whimsical and her antics in the novel would surely make the 'bigots' pull their brain and hair out. But anyway... that came out of Taniagwa's mouth regarding the Haruhi matter if you will. Personally, I would like to be neutural but that's not possible as everyone is biased. What makes for a bigot is the inability to argue from a rival perspective and defend their arguments from that footing.

On cultural issues, this pops up alot when I read through the novel, much less in the anime. Whenever when Kyon's 'liturgy' complex starts up or when he's drawing reference he would make parallels that would be beyond alot of people if they have no clue whatsoever about the literal, socialogical or historical contexts (for example, mail reform and the disasterous campaign of the Marianas). He does this alot but the more 'western' concepts are more prevalent and visible.

Fujioka and Suzumiya react differently to their similarities (of course their differences are as wide as the ocean). Both are cynical but one is determined to bend the world while the other decides to co-exist. One wishes to be at the forefront while the other perfers to be somewhere in the waves. They both have blatent disregard for the current social conditions but where Fujioka manifests it on her self, Suzumiya projects to everything around her. I guess Fujioka is much like water of canyons and Suzumiya scorching plasma from the sun. That's all I think I can add on the two of them. (I have to be frank though... I see more likeness of Fujioka to Kyon)

[Kikaifan]

Kyon's shaping up to a great Bitter Philosophy Major.

Originally Posted by Eclipze

But in your case, in just about every other non-Suzumiya Haruhi thread that contains a post which either contains dislike, disinterest or hate for ur presence here demonstrates, it is perfectly alright to walk into someone's nice comfy circle of love or hate and remind them that there are cretins still walking this earthe series/character, you just HAVE to post and say stuff similar to what you said (defence for SHnY). "Oh you are missing out." "Looks like you have not been chosen yet", "You don't like the show because you don't understand it".

Just like you just HAVE to post this crap. Guess what? People are the same everywhere, when they run into an opinion counter to those they hold they just have to throw out the first feeble argument or devaluation of their opponent their mind can throw together to ease the terrible burden of the world not agreeing with them.

Some of them even go and make sweeping generalizations on why people bother in the first place in an attempt to reframe the argument in terms of their larger, less-easily-assaulted worldview.

But seriously, my hypocrisy aside, I believe people start these topics to organize their thoughts, feel solidarity with those that agree with them, or because they want to argue the point, and people who disagree respond because they want to organize their own thoughts, break any appearance of solidarity for an opposing view, or because they want to argue the point. Of course we're going to defend something we like when someone attacks it, and that is neither counter to the purpose of the forum nor in any other way inferior in purpose to starting the topic in the first place.



And just a side note on the actual argument regarding Haruhi herself: the fact that she is unchallenged by academics or sports and is somewhat accepted despite her behavior for her looks and talent are core to her 'the world is boring, I want something better' outlook. I won't argue that you should like her for it, but those traits don't just represent 'main character-ism,' they're important for their formative effect on her personality.

[FatPianoBoy]

And keep in mind: a character is not necessarily poorly constructed, overly conventional or shallow simply because you don't like them. A character can be 'good' without being likeable. Shinji from Evangelion would be a good example.

[/2cents]

[Shirobane]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

Maybe your definition of "imperfect fictional personality" is different from mine, but when exactly was the other Haruhi perfect?

Spoiler:

She can't sing even if her life depended on it, she is totally oblivious to people who are showing affection towards her (She even mistook a confession as asking to go to the same school as hers), and she is afraid of lightning.

Suzumiya Haruhi is...essentially, a god, someone who can sing, someone who is fearless, someone who, by character design, looks good. If being a god and having the other qualities only qualify S.Haruhi as an imperfect character, then F.Haruhi sure as hell isn't perfect. S.Haruhi is just as "unreachable" as F.Haruhi. I mean, how can the average joe get a god as his (girl)friend?

Definately some inconsistencies between my definition and yours

Spoiler:

Fujioka Haruhi is a character whom I consider to be under the "Honda Toru effect" in which the majority (if not all) other characters' lives are better than they were after they've met her. I consider that perfect simply because there is no possible way to criticise a personality that is radiantly good. You've also failed to mention that she is very good at academics, a very independant woman, and is simply caring of those around her. Also, if she weren't attractive, would Tamaki and the twins be basically fauning over her at every chance?

Suzumiya Haruhi on the other hand is a character with an abrasive personality. In fact, as talented and ambitious as she is, Haruhi simply goes the wrong way in obtaining her goals. Intentional or not, her quests to obtain her goals usually leave a wake of destruction and dismay. This fact is especially emphasized in the second novel as Mikuru is treated terribly throughout. Unlike F.Haruhi, she is a very dependant person even though she seems tough and unlike F.Haruhi, the only people she really cares about are the members of SOS団 only after the first 2 novels.

As much as I pride myself on being a Haruhiist, I do not think she is a god. The "Super Utility Player" or multi-talented people (pretender if you will) do exist in real life also. It is fathomable that someone can be good at a lot of things but not great at anything. It's not like multi-talented people have their own following of acolytes everywhere they go. If anything, benevolence is considered higher stature than heigtened ability.


And for the record, I do like both shows and have nothing against F.Haruhi

Also, how 'bout we all keep it civil in here.

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

I mean, how can the average joe get a god as his (girl)friend?

I'm sure Kyon, Keiichi Morisato, Tenchi Masaki, Makoto Mizuhara, and Rin Tsuchimi are wondering exactly the same thing...

[panzerfan]

Not from the same way... and certainly with verying degree of satisfaction.

Out of them all, Kyon does the most liturgy work and has the most gripes than any of them about it. He does not see Haruhi as a deity whereas to K1 for example, he's been believing it since day 2.