Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[grey_moon]

In real life we are expected to be able to read in-between the lines. Lots of situations aren't spelt out for us, but instead we have to analyse the situation and then judge for the best course of action. Why does any one expect Yuji get it any different? It must be a very sorry life for someone if they can't build up personal (or even working) relationships if every part of it must be spelt out to them in black and white.

Beforehand it was just Shana acting jealous, now we have 2 very different girls acting jealous of the same guy. How can anyone believe that the guy isn't acting in a way to deserve them to be jealous?

[Kiyoru]

I saw the 4th episode today, finally..

Personally, I'm a Shana fan and despite her selfishness and her attitude, I want her to be with Yuuji the most. Sure, Kazumi is cute, but she doesn't know a thing about Yuuji and she kind of just butted in when Shana was starting to feel comfortable with Yuuji, which I didn't like. Meh, minhtam is right about Yuuji and Fumina, imo. He's just being her guidance and protecting her.

[DazarGaidin]

I think the whole 'he just helping her cause he was assigned or likes to help others" argument went out the window with the near kiss scene in the park there. That was a very intimate moment no matter how you spin it.

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by DazarGaidin

I think the whole 'he just helping her cause he was assigned or likes to help others" argument went out the window with the near kiss scene in the park there. That was a very intimate moment no matter how you spin it.

Wrong. Yuji was only observing the similarities between Fumina and Hecate. If you recall episode 13 from the first season, Yuji actually blushed when he nearly kissed Shana. I don't recall seeing this here in the park. Besides. Fumina only smiled. It's not as if she was going in to kiss Yuji.

[DazarGaidin]

Sure your right, thats all it was as they gazed into each others eyes lol Im sorry but that didn't look like a 'wow she DOES look a lot like hecate' moment to me, although the thought might have crossed his mind it didnt take him that long to ponder it, or them to be that close, etc etc. I might have to watch the scene again but it seemed like more than that to me.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

I do wonder what their next move will be, I think you make a very good point as it will be interesting.

Also it kinda throws a spanner into the argument that it is just Shana acting uber jealous of kinda caring oni-chan Yuji. If Yuji is just being protective, why the *bleep* is Yoshida jealous too?

Because she was unlucky to see that very odd "moment" between Konoe and Yuuji, which is somehow related to Hecate. That's the only non-protective-brother scene between Yuuji and Konoe, and even then, I still wouldn't call it romantic, but Yoshida of course doesn't know any specifics about the weird synchronization between Yuuji and Hecate. Note that Shana *never* saw that scene.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by DazarGaidin

Sure your right, thats all it was as they gazed into each others eyes lol Im sorry but that didn't look like a 'wow she DOES look a lot like hecate' moment to me, although the thought might have crossed his mind it didnt take him that long to ponder it, or them to be that close, etc etc. I might have to watch the scene again but it seemed like more than that to me.

It was intimate, but intimate in the sense that Hecate had once absorbed all of Yuuji's thoughts and memories, and it's clear that Konoe has some kind of connection to that. I don't think we should see the scene as romantic--not yet, at least.

I personally think Konoe herself sees Yuuji as more a trusted protector than a love-interest in any romantic sense. She comments, for example, on Shana's absence on the walk to school, and seems disappointed--hardly the reaction of someone out to have Yuuji to herself. The whole clutching Yuuji's shirt thing also looks more like a kid clinging to a parent than anything else.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by minhtam2448

Personally, here's what I think:

Shana: Stop it with the selfishness. It just seems that everytime a girl gets close to Yuji, you get bothered by it and try to split the two up. Either admit to Yuji that you're jealous so that he can spend more time with you or just stop flat out being jealous.

Kazumi: Face it. You just don't know Yuji enough to know that he cares for just about everyone. If you only knew Yuji is just protecting Fumina like an older sibling protects a younger one, then, you wouldn't be as jealous as Shana. I'd say ignore both Shana and Fumina for a while and get to know Yuji anymore. Ask him questions about his personal life and stuff. Then you'd be all set.

Well, I think Shana's more insecure than selfish. She's obviously terrified of Yuuji being with someone else, which is ironic, because I think Yuuji is disappointed that (in his view) Shana has no romantic interest in him. And in Shana's defense, her weird upbringing makes it very hard for her to deal with situations like this.

[KaneDragon]

Great, so Konoe is a Friend To All Living Things, huh?

It's been said plenty in the rest of the thread, but I didn't like this episode that much. Too much Yuji being extremely dense, Konoe being mentally challenged, etc... 6/10 is labeled average, so I'll go with that.

Points I still liked:
1) Yuji doing bullet time, albeit for just one strike.
2) Shana and Yoshida on the roof.
3) Batman-meido?

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

Because she was unlucky to see that very odd "moment" between Konoe and Yuuji, which is somehow related to Hecate. That's the only non-protective-brother scene between Yuuji and Konoe, and even then, I still wouldn't call it romantic, but Yoshida of course doesn't know any specifics about the weird synchronization between Yuuji and Hecate. Note that Shana *never* saw that scene.

So if in Yuji's shoes and you thought gosh she looks just like Hecate would you be standing there gazing into her eyes? There must be a better reason for Yuji's behaviour it is irrational.

Yuji quite rightly so hates the Guze no Tomogara, and his parting shot at Hecate in the end of S1 shows that despite synchronizing with her. He can be quite mean and spiteful when he wishes to be. Yuji in this episode (and most of S2 imho), is not consistent with Yuji portrayed in S1. To me he jerks around like a puppet on a string and the puppeteer is suffering from multiple personality disorder.

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

So if in Yuji's shoes and you thought gosh she looks just like Hecate would you be standing there gazing into her eyes? There must be a better reason for Yuji's behaviour it is irrational.

Yuji quite rightly so hates the Guze no Tomogara, and his parting shot at Hecate in the end of S1 shows that despite synchronizing with her. He can be quite mean and spiteful when he wishes to be. Yuji in this episode (and most of S2 imho), is not consistent with Yuji portrayed in S1. To me he jerks around like a puppet on a string and the puppeteer is suffering from multiple personality disorder.

Yeah, but you have to remember that in Yuji's mind (and that Fuzetsu blood clotting confirmation in episode 3), Fumina is human. He has quite a dislike for Tomogara, I'll give you that, but he pretty much cares for every human being, and Fumina (despite what may or may not happen) is a human being for the time being, so we have to think in that manner.

And what the heck is this puppet nonsense? As the duty of a Mistes, Yuji must stay close to Shana, or who knows what will happen to Misaki City? I'll give you the multiple personality disorder, but it can't be helped. For god's sake, Wilhelmina will seek Chigusa's advice this week. How can we know how to get rid of this psychological issue?

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by minhtam2448

And what the heck is this puppet nonsense? As the duty of a Mistes, Yuji must stay close to Shana, or who knows what will happen to Misaki City? I'll give you the multiple personality disorder, but it can't be helped. For god's sake, Wilhelmina will seek Chigusa's advice this week. How can we know how to get rid of this psychological issue?

I've already posted quite a bit on why I think Yuji doesn't act consistently, only holyman has really responded to any of them.

What duty?

Its the wish of the Guze no Tomogara to split him open like a Kinder Egg for the prize inside.

It is the duty of the Flame Haze to split him open to scatter the Reiji Maigo.

There is no duty for Yuji, he imho is a first ever case and quite rightly he is trying to cling onto as much humanity as possible by trying to survive. People keep super imposing his wishing to sacrifice himself for his class on all his actions. Try to understand his situation, he thought he was about to disappear and wanted his existence to actually mean something. As soon as Yuji finds out he no longer will disappear you have to consider him differently.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

So if in Yuji's shoes and you thought gosh she looks just like Hecate would you be standing there gazing into her eyes? There must be a better reason for Yuji's behaviour it is irrational.

Yuji quite rightly so hates the Guze no Tomogara, and his parting shot at Hecate in the end of S1 shows that despite synchronizing with her. He can be quite mean and spiteful when he wishes to be. Yuji in this episode (and most of S2 imho), is not consistent with Yuji portrayed in S1. To me he jerks around like a puppet on a string and the puppeteer is suffering from multiple personality disorder.

Well, I think the flashback to the synchronization shows that there is some kind of odd power to Konoe. I don't think Yuuji is reacting that way just because of a passing resemblance; Konoe is NOT some ordinary person who just happens to look like Hecate.

Also, although Yuuji certainly didn't like Hecate, do remember that he thought of striking her with blutsaugher, but DIDN'T. He was harsh, but he was also being honest--I don't think Yuuji truly *hates* Hecate, even if he didn't appreciate the synchronization.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

Well, I think the flashback to the synchronization shows that there is some kind of odd power to Konoe. I don't think Yuuji is reacting that way just because of a passing resemblance; Konoe is NOT some ordinary person who just happens to look like Hecate.

Also, although Yuuji certainly didn't like Hecate, do remember that he thought of striking her with blutsaugher, but DIDN'T. He was harsh, but he was also being honest--I don't think Yuuji truly *hates* Hecate, even if he didn't appreciate the synchronization.

He could have said something like "You will get your wish by not consuming humans and experiencing life for yourself" or some gumpf like that.

Yuji does hate Guze no Tomogara, he has no issue at all in helping Shana eliminate them. He starts realising that some are not as bad as the rest, but I don't think Hecate fits the bill, as she was part of the group that hounded him and that nearly wiped out the city. Actually how much of her going bat sh*t can be attributed to his parting shot?

I agree that Konoe is not some ordinary person and I personally am waiting for the writers to give me some dazzling explanation to his behaviour.

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

I've already posted quite a bit on why I think Yuji doesn't act consistently, only holyman has really responded to any of them.

What duty?

Its the wish of the Guze no Tomogara to split him open like a Kinder Egg for the prize inside.

It is the duty of the Flame Haze to split him open to scatter the Reiji Maigo.

There is no duty for Yuji, he imho is a first ever case and quite rightly he is trying to cling onto as much humanity as possible by trying to survive. People keep super imposing his wishing to sacrifice himself for his class on all his actions. Try to understand his situation, he thought he was about to disappear and wanted his existence to actually mean something. As soon as Yuji finds out he no longer will disappear you have to consider him differently.

Excuse me. but what the heck do you mean there's no duty for Yuji? True, he is trying to cling on to humanity, but is he really? Yes, he did think about disappearing and therefore wants his existence to actually mean something. In order for Yuji... or anyone for that matter (not limited to Shakugan no Shana), to exist, he must have some sort of duty, or else he might as well not exist at all. Perhaps I was wrong in my previous post about what his duty really is, but he does have one. Otherwise, a 5th Flame Haze will just waltz in and split him open. It's much more logical in that matter.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

He could have said something like "You will get your wish by not consuming humans and experiencing life for yourself" or some gumpf like that.

Yuji does hate Guze no Tomogara, he has no issue at all in helping Shana eliminate them. He starts realising that some are not as bad as the rest, but I don't think Hecate fits the bill, as she was part of the group that hounded him and that nearly wiped out the city. Actually how much of her going bat sh*t can be attributed to his parting shot?

I agree that Konoe is not some ordinary person and I personally am waiting for the writers to give me some dazzling explanation to his behaviour.

It's my firm belief that Hecate is *not* an evil character in any conventional sense of the term, and that this will become significant in some way in connection with Konoe. She certainly isn't *good*, but I really don't think she should be lumped in the same category as the rest of Bal Masque. All we know about her is that she for some reason feels profoundly empty, and wants to somehow fill that emptiness with experiences--everything else seems secondary--and we never see her actually eat humans. That dude whose name I don't remember mentions at one point that she's pure--in that sense, I think she's exactly that--she is what she is, neither good nor evil.

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

He could have said something like "You will get your wish by not consuming humans and experiencing life for yourself" or some gumpf like that.

Yuji does hate Guze no Tomogara, he has no issue at all in helping Shana eliminate them. He starts realising that some are not as bad as the rest, but I don't think Hecate fits the bill, as she was part of the group that hounded him and that nearly wiped out the city. Actually how much of her going bat sh*t can be attributed to his parting shot?

I agree that Konoe is not some ordinary person and I personally am waiting for the writers to give me some dazzling explanation to his behaviour.

Then why don't we wait for Episode 5 to air so that we can settle this discussion? I got a lab report to do anyway.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by minhtam2448

Excuse me. but what the heck do you mean there's no duty for Yuji? True, he is trying to cling on to humanity, but is he really? Yes, he did think about disappearing and therefore wants his existence to actually mean something. In order for Yuji... or anyone for that matter (not limited to Shakugan no Shana), to exist, he must have some sort of duty, or else he might as well not exist at all. Perhaps I was wrong in my previous post about what his duty really is, but he does have one. Otherwise, a 5th Flame Haze will just waltz in and split him open. It's much more logical in that matter.

The logic is defied quite nicely because of the whole emotion thing. Shana doesn't want to split Yuji because she obviously cares about him. Alastor stood up for Yuji and helped divert maid-san because he cares about Shana. Finally maid-san realised how much Yuji meant to Shana and because she cares about Shana she no longer wishes to split Yuji (that much ;p).

Old Margery would have in my opinion used Yuji as bait, the new Margery should go seek out help from the AA.

Of course with S2 the fact he now has an existence as big as a lord does bring up some serious issues of splitting him safely to hide the Reiji Maigo. But if Yuji seriously had some form of duty and if his personality was as self sacrificing and caring about the city as some people seem to think he is. Then he could have easily found out what is Remy's wish and if it was for the greater good sacrificed himself for it and safely hidden the hougu.

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

The logic is defied quite nicely because of the whole emotion thing. Shana doesn't want to split Yuji because she obviously cares about him. Alastor stood up for Yuji and helped divert maid-san because he cares about Shana. Finally maid-san realised how much Yuji meant to Shana and because she cares about Shana she no longer wishes to split Yuji (that much ;p).

Old Margery would have in my opinion used Yuji as bait, the new Margery should go seek out help from the AA.

Of course with S2 the fact he now has an existence as big as a lord does bring up some serious issues of splitting him safely to hide the Reiji Maigo. But if Yuji seriously had some form of duty and if his personality was as self sacrificing and caring about the city as some people seem to think he is. Then he could have easily found out what is Remy's wish and if it was for the greater good sacrificed himself for it and safely hidden the hougu.

Oh, come on. Shana lucked out with Alastor, Wilhelmina, and Margery, but the world does not revolve around one little girl. Some Flame Haze has to step in and reallocate the Reiji Maigo as a Flame Haze would and should, or else more trouble will happen.

Spoiler for *cough*:

Like that will ever happen.

I'd go on with this argument, but I'd rather not go off topic from the issue first presented at hand, as I usually do.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by minhtam2448

Oh, come on. Shana lucked out with Alastor, Wilhelmina, and Margery, but the world does not revolve around one little girl. Some Flame Haze has to step in and reallocate the Reiji Maigo as a Flame Haze would and should, or else more trouble will happen.

Spoiler for *cough*:

Like that will ever happen.

I'd go on with this argument, but I'd rather not go off topic from the issue first presented at hand, as I usually do.

You telling me you actually believe another Flame Haze is going to step into the territory of 3 Flame Hazes never mind challenge at least 2 of them to kill Yuji?

Shana might have lucked out, but another Flame Haze coming to top Yuji off I think has been covered by various aspects of the story.