2011-03-02, 09:15 | Link #22121 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
|
Hi all, it's been a long time. I pretty much avoided this thread after ep.8 but I missed you guys anyways, and found that the thread is still going strong. So, sorry if I get to ask too many questions, but please let me in the thread again for a bit. Some comments from me:
Quote:
I agree that killing is (borrowing Renall's reference: in universal ethical principle) fundamentally wrong no matter what kind of sugarcoating was used. Spoiler for bla bla yada yada:
Getting back on topic, from what I get Sherry speaks as if there is only one real-killer of this Rokkenjima Accident and the guy did this in cold blood (my definition of cold blood: "oh my, did I just kill the guy? oh hell, let me put another bullet to his brain to make sure." or something similar). Question is, is there an indisputable proof that this is the case? Does it really have to only have one culprit? Couldn't it be that everyone(not technically everyone, but hell) killed each other due to paranoia (the Italian-Japanese massacre that Kinzo survived from is an example EDIT:and perhaps a good analogy to the truth as well!) and it just happened that Eva(and Battler who escaped) was the last survivor?
__________________
|
|
2011-03-02, 09:42 | Link #22122 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
Battler's happy story is certainly preferable to a heartless or cruel one. It's more respectful. However, he's not simply presenting that story on its own, but as part of an agenda he's become invested in. My issue is that I don't believe this is any more right than Beatrice trying to martyr herself, or Erika trying to frame someone, or Bern trying to "find" the most painful half-truth possible. His motives are better, but his actions are equally motivated by bias. And that aside, he only really cares about what Ange knows and how Ange feels and reacts. See the Nanjo Jr./Kumasawa's Son/Boat Captain/Hypothetical Gohda's Mom problem. Suppose Kawabata wants to know what he could have prevented, to ease his guilty conscience about not returning on the 5th? I don't think Battler really cares about that, which would be fine, if he didn't seem to be taking a position that would tangentially deny Kawabata's right to search. Quote:
__________________
|
||
2011-03-02, 09:48 | Link #22123 | ||
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2011-03-02, 09:56 | Link #22124 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
And this is coming from someone very much morally opposed to war under any circumstances. However, that doesn't mean I'm going to generalize that people who act violently had no sensible or explicable reason for their actions (though I disagree with the conclusions they draw as to its necessity), and I certainly wouldn't suggest that they lack any form of discretion (as "senseless rampage" implies that people engaged in warfare don't really care who or what they destroy). Quote:
Are you honestly saying this would inevitably lead to mass murder of the rest of the island (there's going to be people who have no idea what's going on) or an attempt by someone to blow the whole thing up? Nobody would stop and say "You know what? This is insanity. Three (or whatever) people are dead, but this has to stop right now. No one else needs to be affected by this." I think that's more disrespectful to the memory of the dead than anything. It suggests most of the people on the island had no conscience or discretion.
__________________
|
||
2011-03-02, 10:13 | Link #22125 | ||
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
Quote:
Show me a war where only soldiers killed each others and we'll talk about the possibility that a war isn't senseless. However since the very beginnings of civilization conflict nearly always arose due to lack of ressources and/or territory for a given number of people. But that's like saying that the people who destroys stuff in a riot actually do it for the reasons the manifestation actually started (before it turned into a riot). You're the one who seems to be taking appart the "war planning" and "war result" as two seperate things, and that "war" is a word that should only apply to "war planning" and not the actual reality of it? Quote:
I am not saying everyone's death was inevitable (since anyway everyone didn't actually die, only nearly all of them) but that's certainly not a pretty formula to ensure a peaceful 2 days. I guess it's like Rosa in arc 2 in the end, sure she went sorta overly crazy (and is overly suspicious as well), but with the situation you couldn't have really blamed her if she had shot Genji unable to bear her fears anymore. I mean you might've done so morally, but you can't possibly claim that when everyone dies around you, you remain calm and trusting of everyone, and that if you have weapons, things will necessarily go smooth. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-03-02 at 10:29. |
||
2011-03-02, 10:16 | Link #22126 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
|
Aura Twilight have countless times brought out examples of why some things are better left unknown and I agree with him generally, but I also get Renall's position on seeking justice or closure.
I do wonder though, if one really seeks justice, whose head will the hammer of justice fall on? All the suspects are dead, and everyone aside from Ange is portrayed as treating the matter as some sort of amusement or simply doesn't care enough to ask for closure or both. Ultimately what good will it bring in exposing the truth in cases like this? also, Quote:
__________________
|
|
2011-03-02, 10:37 | Link #22127 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
Justice can exist without punishing anyone. Speaking the truth and identifying the guilty and the innocent (if anyone is guilty or innocent) is an end of justice unto itself. Quote:
Basically, what makes you think these people would be predisposed to allow a situation to spiral out of control just because of one thing? Maybe they wouldn't behave that way. How can we know?
__________________
|
||
2011-03-02, 10:52 | Link #22128 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2011-03-02, 11:05 | Link #22129 | ||
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
Quote:
So these might not be reliable, of course (if you're willing to discard everything from all of Umineko as unreliable except that people died on Rokkenjima, and maybe even that?). What are you suggesting then, that we should simply not even imagine what transpired on Rokkenjima? That we have to "put all the sins on one person" akin to what Higurashi's main point was to tell us this is a wrong way to perceive things? Edit: Quote:
|
||
2011-03-02, 11:13 | Link #22130 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying the truth is the only fair way to assess the behavior of the people involved. Otherwise, it's equally valid for me to claim "the people on the island were morally upstanding individuals who would never have murdered for money, and if an accident occurred, would not have attempted to kill anyone."
Remember that the events in the message bottles and subsequent stories are just that, stories. It's not clear if the writer of the message bottles actually believed the adults to be unstable money-hungry psychopaths, or if she was simply writing a mystery story in which people behave suspiciously to generate tension. Alternately, she could simply have been entirely wrong about how people will behave when the chips are down. She does seem to think people rise to their higher natures under pressure though; witness Rosa's breakdown at the end of ep2. If Rosa were a tense money-hungry bitch, would her entire character arc in that episode be realizing "The money isn't important; Maria is what matters to me?" Anyway, we take that information - given to us by biased sources who may not even be trying to give us "the facts" in the first place - and we run with it. What if we're wrong? What if the speculators on R-Prime are wrong? Only a few people know for sure what people "would" have done under the circumstances, and only two of them know what they did do.
__________________
|
2011-03-02, 11:45 | Link #22131 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
|
^Weren`t some soldiers who refused to take part in torture camps killed. So some had no choice
One another note.... saying that there is no justified reason for someone to be killed is very idealistic. I`m to sleepy to explain my reasons at the moment...
__________________
|
2011-03-02, 11:58 | Link #22132 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
Quote:
I even considered the possibility of a Takano like killer. It could be a stupid accidental explosion as well. Maybe Gohda accidently put some horrible chemical in his food and everyone died of poisoning. The oven was left running and eventually lead to the explosion, somehow, while Eva was out like in arc 3 to find the gold. If we're to rule out uncertain/unreliable "facts" as things we cannot use to make a theory about what really happened, then I do not think we have a single element left. So I guess I'm trying to go by a likely scenario. To me the most plausible theory of what "happened" was said by Kyrie in arc 7 tea party. In short that the money and the bomb together would ensure that they wouldn't leave as "one big happy family". I just don't think it only applies to greed, but mostly the fear of other's greed. Then the pain of losing a close one once things begin could spin things easily out of control. I don't think it's far fetched. Assuming the gold and the bomb are true elements, and that many among them comes across that information, Rokkenjima actually feels like a social experiment. |
|
2011-03-02, 12:12 | Link #22133 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
The thing is, there could be facts, in the world of R-Prime. We don't know them, and we can't go looking for them, because we're not characters in the world of its story. So from our perspective, we're stuck.
But within the world, it's certainly Ange's right to move on and not worry about what happened. But it's also the right of individuals who want to uncover the truth (or at least want to try) to be able to do it. That's the long, circuitous multi-page argument we've been having: Whether it's acceptable for characters like that - whether any actually exist in the world - to do it.
__________________
|
2011-03-02, 12:35 | Link #22134 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
Quote:
|
|
2011-03-02, 14:08 | Link #22135 | ||
Senior Member
|
You misunderstood what I wanted to say yet again.
I am merely saying that killing is killing, no matter what your motive is you still erase a human life with all it's consequences and saying that it is good just because you saved your own life appears terribly selfish. Do you think the family and friends of that person killed in self-defense won't suffer, grief or hate you, just because you were excused by law to commit that act of killing? I just think it's wrong to say that somebody becomes inhuman and unfit to be loved and forgiven, just because he or she has killed somebody in a way not excused by law. What I criticise is your interpretation of having and loosing humanity. The act of murder should of course be punished, but somebody with an excuse to kill can as much be human as somebody without. Quote:
While of course the state, courts and the law itself does prescribe that somebody has to be told the truth in a case like this, one could as well reverse your argument. Just because telling the truth is considered right, it does not mean that anyone of the relatives would be happy to know it (even in the case of Nanjo's son you can't say if he wouldn't just kill himself over the truth...if it became known he could probably quit being a physician). You are talking about closure, but it does not always work for everybody. Of course uncertainty is terrible, but truth can hurt just as much. There is no reason why we should believe that the truth couldn't destroy any of those people...especially when we consider how many people it already destroyed in the course of the story. The problem is that your idea doesn't leave the people the freedom of choice, you are forcing them towards truth because you consider it the best option. Quote:
Maybe because I was clumsy in formulating it, maybe because I'm not jumping in on the "The truth is always best" bandwaggon...I personally don't know and I don't care to do any more than try to explain it. I just wanted to point out that there are diferences between criminal justice and individual justice, and that I disagree with the notion brought up by Renall that there is something like an inherent morality in telling the truth. Telling the truth is considered to be right, because it helps to construct a functioning system in which several people can live together, yet there is nothing ethical in supporting that system. If everything is out in the open collisions of interest can be avoided, which is why telling the truth does not only assist the community but also the individual. Maybe it is because I don't believe in god or any form of higher plan that guides us. I find the notion of morality and depravity or good and evil in itself to be highly antiquated from a modern point of view. I just find it strange for a lawyer, someone with academic insight, to believe in something like an inherently good action. |
||
2011-03-02, 14:30 | Link #22136 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
If you think every defense lawyer out there believes, truly believes, that all of his clients are innocent... well, heh. You can't afford to eat if you only take clients you genuinely believe aren't guilty (and even then, 99% of the time the ones you "truly believe" aren't guilty in fact are). A meta-trial - a real one, not a show trial like the end of ep5 - would make for a pretty fascinating setting in the Umineko context. Put Kyrie on trial. Put George on trial for being skeezy. Put Beatrice on trial for crimes against fiction.
__________________
|
|
2011-03-02, 14:44 | Link #22137 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||
2011-03-02, 14:57 | Link #22138 | ||||
Senior Member
|
Quote:
I wouldn't say that killing in self-defense should be punished by any means, but the act in itself does not change, which your phrasing implies. Quote:
There is always a way to avoid killing somebody, even though the chances are small. Of course killing an attacker is the easiest and safest method to save yourself, but you could also run away, knock the attacker unconscious or something else not lethal. Those parents might comprehend why you had to do it, they probably won't officially blame you for it, but I think they would still hate you. And it's understandable, you took the life of their child, who would have remained their child no matter what twisted thing he or she comitted. Quote:
I would never ask anybody to embrace those people for what they are in that moment of murder, but to say that they turn into animals the minute they do anything like that is equally wrong. And to say that they don't deserve understanding or forgiveness from anybody is basically saying that they shouldn't be treated equally anymore...which is a dreadful thing to say. Of course it depends on the individual killer. If we have a deranged maniac, who has gone so far beyond social capabilities in his madness that he can never again function in society without hurting anybody, measures have to be taken. But there is no indication that there ever was such an individual among the suspects in the Rokkenjima-case. Quote:
Like I said, let's agree to disagree. |
||||
2011-03-02, 16:18 | Link #22139 | ||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Quote:
Also, Sherry and I were talking on AIM, and we realized something about Logic Errors. THEY DESTROY WHAT DEFINES A PERSON. Bern lost her faith in miracles; Lambdadelta is no longer certain about anything... And Battler was saved with the power of magic, and his sanity is maintained by imaginary and dead people. He's only able to escape that hell by giving up on the truth, and is no longer able to differentiate it from fantasies.
__________________
|
||
|
|